The draft is not necessarily the problem

[Albany,n.y.]

With the exception of the 2002 disaster, TD has done a good job drafting decent players. This is especially true at CB & RB. Unfortunately, you have a limited number of picks and to be successful you have to choose the right combination of draft choices and NFL free agents. The main problem is, he has totally screwed up the lines-where the games are really won.

With the exception of Sam Adams, he has chosen to use the draft for the DL and been mediocre in his DL selections. He has not properly addressed the DL in free agency, losing Pat Williams (a choice I agree with because of age/size of contract) and not finding a younger free agent to replace him. For example, he was nowhere when Indy signed Corey Simon-probably concerned it would cause him to have to write off Nate Clements-a player who will probably leave anyway.

The OL is totally on TD. He tried to use the draft and free agency to fix it, but has failed miserably. Realistically, it's his free agent decisions that have caused the line to be so bad. The one giant draft mistake was Mike Williams, a player who was too much of a weight risk, if nothing else, to be the 4th player in the draft. No matter what you think of his career in Minnesota, the leaner Bryant McKinnie was the obvious choice over fat Mike. Or they could have picked Roy Williams and spent the Miloy $ elsewhere. He keeps trying to get guard finds in the middle rounds and hasn't come up with anyone yet, although we've got a Geisinger fan on this board. We could live with the Williams failure if TD hadn't bombed on free agents who occupy 80% of the OL. Villarial may be ok, but Teague has never been anything better than adequate, Anderson shouldn't be in the NFL, and Gandy would be best suited to the Mike Price role instead of starting at LT. Look at the good teams and you don't find a street free agent starting at LT. He's adequate at best, just like Teague.

The answer has to be start shelling out the big $ for both OL & DL. I don't care if it's for NFL free agents or draft choices, but if it's Unrestricted FAs, don't keep signing other teams late rounders like Teague (7th), or former/current street FAs like Gandy /Anderson and hoping they'll outplay their pedigree. Stop trying to put an OL together on the cheap. The one exception, Williams, being a bust.

If they can't get a top DL prospect in the draft, spend some $ on the UFAs. While this year's UFAs may be a limited group, they better have a good DL by 2007 (ouch).

[bluv]

With the exception of the 2002 disaster, TD has done a good job drafting decent players.  This is especially true at CB & RB.  Unfortunately, you have a limited number of picks and to be successful you have to choose the right combination of draft choices and NFL free agents. The main problem is, he has totally screwed up the lines-where the games are really won.

With the exception of Sam Adams, he has chosen to use the draft for the DL and been mediocre in his DL selections.  He has not properly addressed the DL in free agency, losing Pat Williams (a choice I agree with because of age/size of contract) and not finding a younger free agent to replace him.  For example, he was nowhere when Indy signed Corey Simon-probably concerned it would cause him to have to write off Nate Clements-a player who will probably leave anyway. 

The OL is totally on TD.  He tried to use the draft and free agency to fix it, but has failed miserably.  Realistically, it's his free agent decisions that have caused the line to be so bad.  The one giant draft mistake was Mike Williams, a player who was too much of a weight risk, if nothing else, to be the 4th player in the draft.  No matter what you think of his career in Minnesota, the leaner Bryant McKinnie was the obvious choice over fat Mike.  Or they could have picked Roy Williams and spent the Miloy $ elsewhere.  He keeps trying to get guard finds in the middle rounds and hasn't come up with anyone yet, although we've got a Geisinger fan on this board.  We could live with the Williams failure if TD hadn't bombed on free agents who occupy 80% of the OL.  Villarial may be ok, but Teague has never been anything better than adequate, Anderson shouldn't be in the NFL, and Gandy would be best suited to the Mike Price role instead of starting at LT.  Look at the good teams and you don't find a street free agent starting at LT.  He's adequate at best, just like Teague. 

The answer has to be start shelling out the big $ for both OL & DL.  I don't care if it's for NFL free agents or draft choices, but if it's Unrestricted FAs, don't keep signing other teams late rounders like Teague (7th), or former/current street FAs like Gandy /Anderson and hoping they'll outplay their pedigree.  Stop trying to put an OL together on the cheap.  The one exception, Williams, being a bust. 

If they can't get a top DL prospect in the draft, spend some $ on the UFAs.  While this year's UFAs may be a limited group, they better have a good DL by 2007 (ouch).

508747[/snapback]

 

While the line is a big culprit, the offense as a whole is a mess and I don't think it is due to talent but poor coaching and scheming. Whenever JP plays it seems as if the gameplanning goes out the window and just calling plays becomes the norm; just give JP a play and watch him run around. The running game becomes and afterthought and they can't seem to put players in their positions to maximize their talents. I mean number one, we are a running team built for the run; for us to be down 28-3 and McGahee having only 2 runs playing on the road with a young QB is atrocious playcalling! And if you are going to run these short routes with Moulds, why not incorporate more slants so he can get some RAC instead of short curls and hitches? With Evans being the deep threat, where are the short hitches and curls that should be offered as he has proven to get open deep?

 

And as far as the OL goes, when Mike Williams was healthy he was our best OL, even though he has not lived up to a top 5 pick. Why force Peters in at mid season and give him baptism by fire? And if they wanted to use Peters so badly, why not put him in a LT where he practiced all offseason and move Gandy to LG where he has played and would fit comfortably and sit our worse lineman Anderson on the bench? Remember when MW was hurt in the 1st games, they didn't bring in Peters because he had practiced at LT; they brought in the other loser RT whom I can't remember? Now the line strength which was run blocking is now a liabilty and the pass blocking is as bad if not worse than before the switch.

 

Face it, while we need a personell upgrade, we need a coaching/gameplanning upgrade 10 times more. I'm pretty sure if Belichek had our personell to work with we'd at least be contending.

[Orton's Arm]

Face it, while we need a personell upgrade, we need a coaching/gameplanning upgrade 10 times more. I'm pretty sure if Belichek had our personell to work with we'd at least be contending.

508805[/snapback]

I disagree. We have one of the best o-line coaches in the league, yet our line can't block. One of the biggest factors in building a strong line is continuity, which TD hasn't provided.

 

If you go the free agent route with your line, continuity is harder to attain. Take Villarial. He played well when he first got here, but old age is catching him all too quickly. Next year there may be a new face at right OG. And left OG. And C. And LT. And maybe even RT. Given that TD is in his fifth year, there should be at least one OL position which some guy has locked up with absolute certainty. There isn't.

[ganesh]

Look at the good teams and you don't find a street free agent starting at LT. 

508747[/snapback]

 

The highest drafted player on the Patriots OL is the guard from the 1st round

but he is a rookie....Matt light was a 2nd rounder...THe rest are either 5th/6th

or 7th round draft picks..

 

The Atlanta Falcons have two 7th rounders and two UDFA on their starting line.

 

It is the coaching....

[ganesh]

I disagree. We have one of the best o-line coaches in the league, yet our line can't block. One of the biggest factors in building a strong line is continuity, which TD hasn't provided.

 

If you go the free agent route with your line, continuity is harder to attain. Take Villarial. He played well when he first got here, but old age is catching him all too quickly. Next year there may be a new face at right OG. And left OG. And C. And LT. And maybe even RT. Given that TD is in his fifth year, there should be at least one OL position which some guy has locked up with absolute certainty. There isn't.

508846[/snapback]

 

 

Just having the best o-line coach is not going to help.....The O-line schemes still have to fall into the offensive philosophy of the OC. This is where the problems have been. Again, Jim being one of the best o-line coaches TODAY is more a myth from his past achievements rather than what he has done in the last 3 years including his last year with the Giants.....

 

I agree about going through the FA route is a bad idea....You need to grow your team....Unfortunately, this is year 5 of TD regime....Don't know where and when we are going to grow this line...

[BillnutinHouston]

I disagree. We have one of the best o-line coaches in the league, yet our line can't block. One of the biggest factors in building a strong line is continuity, which TD hasn't provided.

 

508846[/snapback]

 

 

How do you blame TD for the lack of continuity on the OL? Did TD cut Ross Tucker?

 

I think the blame lies with injuries and MM. MM is the one who gave us the Jason Peters experiment HALFWAY INTO THE SEASON. WTF?

[Blue Chipper]

With the exception of the 2002 disaster, TD has done a good job drafting decent players.  This is especially true at CB & RB.  Unfortunately, you have a limited number of picks and to be successful you have to choose the right combination of draft choices and NFL free agents. The main problem is, he has totally screwed up the lines-where the games are really won.

With the exception of Sam Adams, he has chosen to use the draft for the DL and been mediocre in his DL selections.  He has not properly addressed the DL in free agency, losing Pat Williams (a choice I agree with because of age/size of contract) and not finding a younger free agent to replace him.  For example, he was nowhere when Indy signed Corey Simon-probably concerned it would cause him to have to write off Nate Clements-a player who will probably leave anyway. 

The OL is totally on TD.  He tried to use the draft and free agency to fix it, but has failed miserably.  Realistically, it's his free agent decisions that have caused the line to be so bad.  The one giant draft mistake was Mike Williams, a player who was too much of a weight risk, if nothing else, to be the 4th player in the draft.  No matter what you think of his career in Minnesota, the leaner Bryant McKinnie was the obvious choice over fat Mike.  Or they could have picked Roy Williams and spent the Miloy $ elsewhere.  He keeps trying to get guard finds in the middle rounds and hasn't come up with anyone yet, although we've got a Geisinger fan on this board.  We could live with the Williams failure if TD hadn't bombed on free agents who occupy 80% of the OL.  Villarial may be ok, but Teague has never been anything better than adequate, Anderson shouldn't be in the NFL, and Gandy would be best suited to the Mike Price role instead of starting at LT.  Look at the good teams and you don't find a street free agent starting at LT.  He's adequate at best, just like Teague. 

The answer has to be start shelling out the big $ for both OL & DL.  I don't care if it's for NFL free agents or draft choices, but if it's Unrestricted FAs, don't keep signing other teams late rounders like Teague (7th), or former/current street FAs like Gandy /Anderson and hoping they'll outplay their pedigree.  Stop trying to put an OL together on the cheap.  The one exception, Williams, being a bust. 

If they can't get a top DL prospect in the draft, spend some $ on the UFAs.  While this year's UFAs may be a limited group, they better have a good DL by 2007 (ouch).

508747[/snapback]

 

excellent thread in regards to the o-line.

[Orton's Arm]

Again,  Jim being one of the best o-line coaches TODAY is more a myth from his past achievements rather than what he has done in the last 3 years including his last year with the Giants.....

508868[/snapback]

If you're familiar with the Giants situation, you'll know that immediately after McNally and the coaching staff were let go, the GM decided it was absolutely imperative to upgrade the talent on the o-line. Last year, McNally had Mike Williams playing by far the best football of his career; and in the second half of the season the line as a whole came together in a way we had not seen in quite some time.

 

Of the five starters on this year's line, two are new, another two (Williams and Villarial) have battled injuries, and the fifth starter is Trey Teague. Do you think a player like Bennie Anderson is a good o-line coach away from being a quality NFL player? Do you think a better o-line coach could have given Teague the physical strength he needs to avoid being pushed into the backfield?

 

Considering how little McNally has been given to work with, I think he has done a fine job here in Buffalo.

[Orton's Arm]

How do you blame TD for the lack of continuity on the OL?  Did TD cut Ross Tucker?

 

I think the blame lies with injuries and MM.  MM is the one who gave us the Jason Peters experiment HALFWAY INTO THE SEASON.  WTF?

508870[/snapback]

Yes, TD did cut Ross Tucker. MM wouldn't have had to employ the Jason Peters experiment if players like Mike Williams and Greg Jerman were doing their jobs. I still don't think Mike Williams is at 100%.

 

The team began the year with 2 new starters on the line, neither of whom were with the team last year; and neither of whom should be with the team next year.

[ganesh]

If you're familiar with the Giants situation, you'll know that immediately after McNally and the coaching staff were let go, the GM decided it was absolutely imperative to upgrade the talent on the o-line.

508995[/snapback]

[/quote

 

Yes. But the Giants in Jims last year did nothing with almost the same line

that took them to the SB. The new GM/Coach upgrading might be something

to do with having the right players for their philosophy. I am not saying

Jim is not a good/great coach...Just that he has not proved to be a great

coach in the last few seasons...And again I am not blaming him for that...If

you look at my original post, he has not been helped by the inept gameplan

from the OC.

 

Last year, McNally had Mike Williams playing by far the best football of his career; and in the second half of the season the line as a whole came together in a way we had not seen in quite some time.

508995[/snapback]

 

Getting 1 out of 5 player to play his best is NOT what a OL coach does BEST.

Again, remember the 2nd half of last season was a total mirage playing all

those weak NFC West teams.....That final game against the Steelers exposed

all our weakness and so did most of the playoff (or almost playoff caliber) teams

like NE, Baltimore, Pittsburgh.

 

 

Of the five starters on this year's line, two are new, another two (Williams and Villarial) have battled injuries, and the fifth starter is Trey Teague. Do you think a player like Bennie Anderson is a good o-line coach away from being a quality NFL player?

508995[/snapback]

[/quote

 

Maybe. If the scrubs on the Giants line took them to a SB, why not another

set of scrubs....But this necessarily doesn't come from the OL coach himself.

With more mental discipline imposed by the entire coaching staff on every single

player, these players get to focus better...which means less penalties....less sacks.

better pass protection....Injuries are a way of life....Matt Light the starting LT

for NE has been out for now 4-5 games...they still give enough protection for

Brady....Dallas has lost its starting LT....Still the statue Bledsoe gets all the time to throw....Injuries are part of NFL...You have to play around them....

 

 

Do you think a better o-line coach could have given Teague the physical strength he needs to avoid being pushed into the backfield?

 

Considering how little McNally has been given to work with, I think he has done a fine job here in Buffalo.

508995[/snapback]

 

No. A better coach wouldn have benched him....especially in pre-season....One can't expect the entire starting 5 to play all 16 games together.....The backups have to be in sync with the rest of the starters....that is why they have offseason programs, camp and pre-season.