Football players...

[dave mcbride]

He also made a multi-millionaire out of a finished Henry Jones, and gave Sam Rogers 4 years/12 million as I recall.

It cost the Bills almost 11 million in dead cap space to dump Fina and Ostroski. 

508776[/snapback]

whoa there. jones was a terrific player up until his last game in 2000. he signed that contract in 1997 or 1998, and provided good value. he's one of the bills better players in the past dozen years, truth be told.

[Rico]

So this was planned? SD never wanted Manning.  They didn't even want Rivers.  They are just acquiring players they don't want in order to trade them for players they do want?     

508825[/snapback]

Obviously SD got very lucky with some stupid moves. Even Vick for LT & Brees was questionable at the time. But I'd say it's better to be lucky + good then to look good on paper + suck.

[SDS]

1999 1 1 23 23 Antoine Winfield DB Ohio State

  2 2 22 53 Peerless Price WR Tennessee

  3 3 25 86 Shawn Bryson RB Tennessee

  4 4 24 119 Keith Newman LB North Carolina

  5 4 27 122 Bobby Collins TE North Alabama

  6 5 23 156 Jay Foreman LB Nebraska

  7 6 15 184 Rashard Cook DB USC

  8 6 25 194 Armon Hatcher DB Oregon State

  9 7 24 230 Sheldon Jackson TE Nebraska

  10 7 42 248 Bryce Fisher DE Air Force

508838[/snapback]

 

 

 

So, I see no OL. I see a 5'6" CB who is no longer on the team and had some decent years in Buffalo (not 1st round decent mind you...). A WR who had one good year for us that we took advantage of and a bunch of crap.

 

Thanks for making my point in 1999. The same holds true for all the other years since Bill Polian left.

[dave mcbride]

 

So, I see no OL.  I see a 5'6" CB who is no longer on the team and had some decent years in Buffalo (not 1st round decent mind you...).  A WR who had one good year for us that we took advantage of and a bunch of crap.

 

Thanks for making my point in 1999.  The same holds true for all the other years since Bill Polian left.

508855[/snapback]

hmm. a seventh rounder who is still productive at sacking the qb, getting 7-9 a year still. a third round rb who is still playing pretty well for the lions. a 4th round lb who played well for the bills in wade phillips system. and a 5th round lb who has been a serviceable journeyman for years. as for price, by my count he had one spectactular year and 3 good ones. as for winfield, if he's just decent, why did more than 1 team offer him a $10 million signing bonus when he became a free agent last year? it seems to me that everyone on this board just loved winfield in 99 and 2000, and thought he was a top tier cb in 2003 despite not making enough picks.

 

i challenge you to look at any team in the league's draft from any year over the past 10 years that has been as productive. i've done it before, and you usually see about 2 to 3 players in the league after 3 years. most don't make it. in this case, 6 guys are still in the league. and 4 of them have had at least one legitimately good season (i.e., above average) seasons over the years.

[Bill from NYC]

whoa there. jones was a terrific player up until his last game in 2000.  he signed that contract in 1997 or 1998, and provided good value. he's one of the bills better players in the past dozen years, truth be told.

508842[/snapback]

 

Up until his last game? I think not. He was already pretty beat up.

 

I am not trying to make the assertion that Jones was not a good player. He was. The problem is that Mr. B continued to renegotiate his deal and pay him far more than his value. Then, the Bills took a big cap hit to get rid of him once he was all but useless. Even when he had something left in the tank, he had all of 5 ints in his last 5 seasons as a Bill.

 

Jones was finished

[dave mcbride]

Up until his last game? I think not. He was already pretty beat up.

 

I am not trying to make the assertion that Jones was not a good player. He was. The problem is that Mr. B continued to renegotiate his deal and pay him far more than his value. Then, the Bills took a big cap hit to get rid of him once he was all but useless. Even when he had something left in the tank, he had all of 5 ints in his last 5 seasons as a Bill.

 

Jones was finished

508874[/snapback]

bill: wha?? from the stats you provided, he had a good year in 2000 -- pretty much as good as any of his other years. and as i'm sure you know, judging a db on int numbers isn't the best gauge. and the bills were a sold d in those years, rarely giving up big plays at all. it's part of a safety's job to ensure that.

 

i have no doubt he was in decline by 2001, but probably would have been better than the guys williams put in there to replace him.

[SDS]

hmm. a seventh rounder who is still productive at sacking the qb, getting 7-9 a year still. a third round rb who is still playing pretty well for the lions. a 4th round lb who played well for the bills in wade phillips system. and a 5th round lb who has been a serviceable journeyman for years. as for price, by my count he had one spectactular year and 3 good ones.  as for winfield, if he's just decent, why did more than 1 team offer him a $10 million signing bonus when he became a free agent last year? it seems to me that everyone on this board just loved winfield in 99 and 2000, and thought he was a top tier cb in 2003 despite not making enough picks. 

 

i challenge you to look at any team in the league's draft from any year over the past 10 years that has been as productive. i've done it before, and you usually see about 2 to 3 players in the league after 3 years.  most don't make it. in this case, 6 guys are still in the league. and 4 of them have had at least one legitimately good season (i.e., above average) seasons over the years.

508867[/snapback]

 

You just described a bunch of fill-ins (as well as overstating the value of Bryson) for the most part. Winfield was the only one who you could point to as being a marquee player for a few years. Price was almost out of the league and certainly is not playing up to a 2nd round level.

 

1999 is just another example of a draft that provided role players while our top-flight talent aged another year.

[Bill from NYC]

bill: wha?? from the stats you provided, he had a good year in 2000 -- pretty much as good as any of his other years. and as i'm sure you know, judging a db on int numbers isn't the best gauge.  and the bills were a sold d in those years, rarely giving up big plays at all. it's part of a safety's job to ensure that.

 

i have no doubt he was in decline by 2001, but probably would have been better than the guys williams put in there to replace him.

508891[/snapback]

 

I wish I could remember, but his salary might have been more than 4 million per season. Again, I am saying that Jones WAS good, but the fact that he fell off the charts in 01 does not lend itself to believe that he was all that in 00, especially at that price.

Moreover, he was another element of the cap mess that TD had to clean up, something I will credit TD for being good at.

[ganesh]

With all the mistakes Butler made while here, and all the success San Diego has had recently, it looks like A.J. Smith is a far better GM than either TD or Butler.

508799[/snapback]

 

 

Consistently picking in the top 10 for a few years also helps....2 years ago

the Charges OL was the worst in the NFL....Even this year they had 2 1st

round picks that they invested on DEs.. Also luck plays a part....For example

the Chargers trade Eli Manning for a extra 1st round pick this year....Whereas

the bills had no such luck trying to trade down from #4 in the 2002 draft....

 

Coaching...Coaching....Why are the Bills Cowhers, Bill Bellicheks and John Foxes

plug in 7th rounders and UDFAs into their lines and still win......They are better

coaches and ahve a better coaching staff (that plays to the abilities of the players) than the GWs and MMs we have....Mike is aplayers coach....but when veterans

continue to make silly mental mistakes on the field.......the coaching staff takes the blame for that....

[Dwight Drane]

After looking at drafts from both GM's, it isn't that drastic a difference in identifying talent. Where Butler was good was in bringing in solid LB after LB. Cowart,Rodgers,Covington,Holecek,Foreman,Newman,etc. We would always have a good core that played for cheap so we were able to overpay some trusted veterans to stay on. This year we have $12million tied up in 3 FA linebackers. Posey is average at best, Fletcher needs a monster line in front of him to be effective, and as good as Spikes is..he may be done.

 

We never made a point to draft O-Line, but we had intelligent beef up front with Butler. We struggled to find a RT for years, but the rest of the line was servicable...much moreso than the current squad. Jimbo and Flutie were smart enough and experienced enough to make up for any faults in the line. The rest of the jokers at QB we've had aren't like those two. Losman might get there because of his wheels, but he's years away with this supporting cast.

 

You heard Butler say "he's a good young man" so many times, because they were good young men. They had brains and some heart. This regeime looks at players for pure talent, and misses the intangibles. Most of all you need a coach who can identify how to put the pieces together, and that may be the biggest problem after all.

[ganesh]

New York paid a king's ransom to get Eli Manning. It turns out Manning was worth even more than what NY gave up to get him.

 

So now San Diego has a ton of picks from trading away Manning, and the opportunity to get even more picks by trading away Rivers. Plus they have a bona fide QB in Brees. I'll take that QB situation over what TD has done with QB here.

508820[/snapback]

 

Drew Brees was a mediocre QB in his first 3 seasons with the chargers....Why ?...they had a stinking OL.....Marty might be a bad playoff coach...but he instills discipline in his team that at least gets them to the playoffs....

[Pass the Pipe]

  Don't forget to include such guys as Corbin Lacina, Jamie Nails, Corey Louchiey....

508694[/snapback]

 

 

Now that is funny!

[dave mcbride]

You just described a bunch of fill-ins (as well as overstating the value of Bryson) for the most part.  Winfield was the only one who you could point to as being a marquee player for a few years. Price was almost out of the league and certainly is not playing up to a 2nd round level.

 

1999 is just another example of a draft that provided role players while our top-flight talent aged another year.

508901[/snapback]

 

if a fill in comes in the fifth or seventh round, that's a pretty good pick. also recall that except for 95, the bills drafted in the late end of the first round every year. in 95, they drafted ruben, who was in fact a perrennial pro bowler (and deserved at least 3 of those trips to hawaii).

 

look - i think that donohoe is certainly an ok drafter. so it's not really the issue in terms of comparing the two of them. i think it comes down to the fact that you seem to have a real animus - almost to the point of malevolence - toward butler which i don't really understand. as you can probably guess, i've always felt that the hatred directed towards him after he left was more than a little irrational. he did the best he could while was here and did it for a long time. he tried to win the super bowl, but it didn't work out. they were close but not good enough. he left because he was offered a boatload more money than what wilson offered him and he probably felt that it was time to try something new in one of the nicest cities in the country. is that underhanded? i don't think it's any more complicated than that, actually.

[cale]

I went to bed after my post last night...I'm lucky I didn't start drinking...heavily...

 

There were hits and misses on JB/AJ's draft watch...but we always had serviceable players. Also let's not forget that we were always picking later than sooner because we always *made* the playoffs.

 

I think SDS makes a good point about us whiffing on OL picks even in the Butler days. But at least I liked my odds. The thing that always impressed me about the pre-TD era picks was that even our first rounders esp. on defense were not necessarily household names but they always seemed to play well here.

 

I credit Marv and Wade for that. They also did not necessarily make Pro Bowls by the load - but again they seemed to have a lot of heart and played their collective a**es off. And they were mentally strong. I just can't say the same for our present batch except for maybe Takeo and Schobel and now I'm thinking Losman after yesterday's play. Guy's a gamer...He had no support yesterday...

 

Fletcher annoys the c*** out of me. He just runs blindly around the field. One of my fave players, Milloy, seems to be doing the same now. They're all playing stupid...which just baffles me.

 

So, eventhough you're right SDS about the lack of maybe Pro Bowl talent, I think we still had some "football players" here.

 

I still maintain that my theory that TD doesn't like players who question authority is correct. But, more often than not they're the "never say die" guys on the field.

 

Bummer

 

Charles

[Orton's Arm]

After looking at drafts from both GM's, it isn't that drastic a difference in identifying talent. Where Butler was good was in bringing in solid LB after LB. Cowart,Rodgers,Covington,Holecek,Foreman,Newman,etc. We would always have a good core that played for cheap so we were able to overpay some trusted veterans to stay on. This year we have $12million tied up in 3 FA linebackers. Posey is average at best, Fletcher needs a monster line in front of him to be effective, and as good as Spikes is..he may be done.

 

We never made a point to draft O-Line, but we had intelligent beef up front with Butler. We struggled to find a RT for years, but the rest of the line was servicable...much moreso than the current squad. Jimbo and Flutie were smart enough and experienced enough to make up for any faults in the line. The rest of the jokers at QB we've had aren't like those two. Losman might get there because of his wheels, but he's years away with this supporting cast.

 

You heard Butler say "he's a good young man" so many times, because they were good young men. They had brains and some heart. This regeime looks at players for pure talent, and misses the intangibles. Most of all you need a coach who can identify how to put the pieces together, and that may be the biggest problem after all.

508907[/snapback]

An excellent post overall, but I'll take issue with the coaching part. Yes, the Bills have coaching problems on defense--which TD created by indirectly firing Cottrell. But I have higher hopes for the offensive coaching, especially now that Mularkey is calling the plays.

[SDS]

We never made a point to draft O-Line, but we had intelligent beef up front with Butler. We struggled to find a RT for years, but the rest of the line was servicable...much moreso than the current squad.

508907[/snapback]

 

What does "servicable" mean exactly??? Does that mean you win the battle in the trenches or you lose? Does that mean you have a Super Bowl caliper line or does it mean you have 8-8 potential +/- the bounce of a pointy ball?

 

Maybe I feel I have a greater perespective of this since I have been actively observing the conversation about the OL for 7 years now. One thing I can tell you is that Bills fans have been bitching about it perinially for 10+ years.

 

So, if your point is that you are striving for a mediocre line that gets us the occasional WC birth and a 1st round exit in the playoffs, then fine you made your point.

 

If your point is that our OL mess was NOT an issue before TD's arrival, then you are wrong.

 

The Butler ball-washing/revisionist history needs to stop. He inherited a Super Bowl team, but only achieved uninspired success that faded as his tenure progressed.

[dave mcbride]

What does "servicable" mean exactly??? Does that mean you win the battle in the trenches or you lose?  Does that mean you have a Super Bowl caliper line or does it mean you have 8-8 potential +/- the bounce of a pointy ball?

 

Maybe I feel I have a greater perespective of this since I have been actively observing the conversation about the OL for 7 years now. One thing I can tell you is that Bills fans have been bitching about it perinially for 10+ years.

 

So, if your point is that you are striving for a mediocre line that gets us the occasional WC birth and a 1st round exit in the playoffs, then fine you made your point.

 

If your point is that our OL mess was NOT an issue before TD's arrival, then you are wrong.

 

The Butler ball-washing/revisionist history needs to stop.  He inherited a Super Bowl team, but only achieved uninspired success that faded as his tenure progressed.

509163[/snapback]

 

i agree with you that the o-line has been a problem since wolford left. right then and there, it went from being great to merely decent. it was in 96 that it really went south; all in all, they had a decent season in 95.

 

however, there are 2 lines, and it's pretty inarguable that butler was responsible for the huge upgrade in the d-line in the 90s. beyond smith, it was a huge weakness of the polian teams. leon seals and jeff wright were journeymen at best. polian may have called phil hanson's name, but that was butler's pick through and through from what I've read. he found pat williams, and he nabbed ted washington. he also drafted wiley, who had a couple of terrific seasons before apparently losing a step. the bills d-line rotation circa 1999 was undoubtedly the best one in team history.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Coaching...Coaching....Why are the Bills Cowhers, Bill Bellicheks and John Foxes

plug in 7th rounders and UDFAs into their lines and still win......They are better

coaches and ahve a better coaching staff (that plays to the abilities of the players) than the GWs and MMs we have....Mike is aplayers coach....but when veterans

continue to make silly mental mistakes on the field.......the coaching staff takes the blame for that....

508906[/snapback]

 

I think, they seek out and have 2nd-tier players that fit their systems better. They may lose the better athlete, but they can plug in someone that knows their role and executes the job.

 

Belichick is certainly a coach that is completely unafraid of sitting any player, no matter what his pedigree, that won't play within the system.

 

BTW, Gregg Williams was getting some press this year for benching Arrington in Washington.

[Bill from NYC]

What does "servicable" mean exactly??? Does that mean you win the battle in the trenches or you lose?  Does that mean you have a Super Bowl caliper line or does it mean you have 8-8 potential +/- the bounce of a pointy ball?

 

Maybe I feel I have a greater perespective of this since I have been actively observing the conversation about the OL for 7 years now. One thing I can tell you is that Bills fans have been bitching about it perinially for 10+ years.

 

So, if your point is that you are striving for a mediocre line that gets us the occasional WC birth and a 1st round exit in the playoffs, then fine you made your point.

 

If your point is that our OL mess was NOT an issue before TD's arrival, then you are wrong.

 

The Butler ball-washing/revisionist history needs to stop.  He inherited a Super Bowl team, but only achieved uninspired success that faded as his tenure progressed.

509163[/snapback]

 

Bravo! Everything you said is true. As a matter of fact, TD has, imo, tried harder to address the OL than did Butler. His efforts were weak, dumb and futile mind you, but looking at the draft/free agency record of Mr. B, building a strong OL was not high on his list....not at all.

[Rico]

the bills d-line rotation circa 1999 was undoubtedly the best one in team history.

509176[/snapback]

I'd take Day, Sestak, McDole, and Dunaway, thank you.

And they didn't have to rotate, they just played.