Campy Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 1. spellcheck works! 2. TMCM (SS/SW) USN (Ret) 3. Look up the words DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY, try to understand what it is that differentiates the American Serviceman Doing His or Her Duty from a Terrorist. When you figure that out, maybe your opinion will change. 505759[/snapback] SHould I assume you're directing that at me and not SilverNRed? If so: 1. Sorry if I misspelled something. I'm probably not the world's greatest typist. Hopefully the gist of my argument was clear even if my spelling was not. 2. Thanks for serving, and welcome home. 3. I'm familiar with those words, which is why I thanked you for serving. I'm also familiar with the differences between terrorists and an army on the field in combat. But that does not mean that armies in the field can't be wrong. I don't think the use of torture or chemical weapons is an accurate reflection of the ideals of our country - or of the brave men and women who have, who do now, and who will in the future, serve it. All of those those brave men and women are better than that. And that's one of the things that I don't like. Using chemical weapons in combat is "fine" for Germany in WWI, or Saddam Hussein against the Kurds, but not for us. Our soldiers, past present, and future, don't deserve to be associated with them. Torture is "fine" for despotic regimes, but not for us, not for our military. Unfortunately, torturing detainees and using chemical weapons have occured. It's a blight on them, and it's a blight on us. But we can not ignore it. Nor can we justify it. Attempting to do so would make us no better than WWI Germans or Hussein himself. The citizens of this country and the men and women who have served/do serve/will serve deserve better IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Who told you that? I don't remember that. Would the media possibly have said that? And you believed that? Naaaa. 505793[/snapback] Of course some folks said it would be 5+ years for a real transition to happen, and many more years before a full pullout. But of course that was lost on most folks as well. The media heard flowers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wacka Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 As the post above yours cleary indicates, it's from Lt. Col. Barry Venable, a Pentagon spokesman. Stupid reporter? Italian Communists? Thanks for playing. 505678[/snapback] Quote from the AP article: Italian communists held a sit-in Monday in front of the U.S. Embassy in Rome to protest the reported use by American troops of white phosphorous. Italy's state-run RAI24 news television aired a documentary last week alleging the U.S. used white phosphorous shells in a "massive and indiscriminate way" against civilians during the Fallujah offensive. This is not the part of the article that quoted the Lt. Col. This is later in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 This is not the part of the article that quoted the Lt. Col. This is later in it. 505804[/snapback] It was a pretty snotty reply on my part - and while I know we can get that way sometimes, you didn't deserve it based on the post you wrote. Mea culpa. I read the article, but even if it was bin Laden himself who made the claim, the fact is that it was confirmed by a Pentagon spokesman. In my world, that makes it a little harder to blow off as "BS," despite some people's claim to the contrary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 I read an article that claimed that it does, but I'll concede that point with no argument I've read plenty of articles saying the same thing. Then I looked at the chemistry. While WP (phosphorus tetride) MAY damage your internal organs via toxicity, you'd have a hell of a time ingesting or aspirating it, as it oxidizes quickly in air to phosphorus pentoxide, which itself combines fairly quickly with moisture to form phosphoric acid...neither of which is particularly healthy, mind you, but in the concentrations you'd inhale or ingest from WP smoke, it's an irritant - uncomfortable, but no more damaging than tear gas. As for getting hit by a piece of WP...it'll burn you badly, and keep burning as long as it has air. But the burning itself (which is the chemical reaction of phosphorus tetride to phosphorus pentoxide) isn't going to introduce many toxins into the system for the simple reason that the surrounding tissue's already too destroyed from thermal effects to accept the toxins. Basically, WP in either form (smoke or incendiary), though it's theoretically toxic, isn't designed so that toxicity is "deliverable", so to speak. Much like how, even though lead is toxic, you don't get lead poisoning from a bullet. Dropping bombs and shooting people is consistent with accepted (and lawful) means of waging war. Using chemical weapons is a violation of international law. Sorry, but its use certainly is "criminal," ie, it violates the law, making it a crime. 505697[/snapback] And if WP were a chemical weapon, you'd be right. Only the Russians classify it as such, and then only because smoke (i.e. concealment) and incendiary weapons are technically in the realm of their chemical corps. In the western definition, since its effects are not toxic but thermal, it's not a chemical weapon. Again, it's akin to calling a bullet a chemical weapon because its made of a toxic alloy. Neither is it any more illegal than a bullet from an M16. Which is not to say it's not a horrible weapon; it is a horrible weapon. Given a choice, it's one of the last things I'd like to be hit by. It's painful, scarring, and debilitating. So's a bullet. So's a JDAM. War is a messy business...and attempts to sanitize it by saying "This weapon is 'bad', but this one is 'good'" are ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Wrong, as usual. Willie Peter Read the Health Effects Section. I love how all the people who never did a single minute of military service are okay with all the things which they'll allow to happen to other people. 505713[/snapback] Yeah..."eating a teaspoon". Because most WP rounds force the people in the immediate target area to eat WP in teaspoon-sized quantities. Again...lead is as toxic. Nobody bitches about bullets being toxic. There's a difference between elemental toxicity and toxicity of application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Who told you that? I don't remember that. Would the media possibly have said that? And you believed that? Naaaa. 505793[/snapback] It's called an allegory. Given the track record of people's inability to pick up on the nuances of the written word, I probably shouldn't have used it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 It's called an allegory. Given the track record of people's inability to pick up on the nuances of the written word, I probably shouldn't have used it. 505824[/snapback] Thanks for the compliment professor, sorry it went over my head. I'm just a street guy, so I saw it as Bull--shiit. Which is really what it was. How's that for nuance, Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 I think the issue at hand isn't the actions of terrorists. It's the actions of the United States. Justifying torture, for any reason, is wrong. 505603[/snapback] I hope no one you love is ever in harm's way. You're going to be in for a rude "sense of self" awakening. The world outside your window ain't like the one you watch on television. If I've got a tango in my possession who has information that is going to keep alot of innocent people alive but won't tell me when I ask nicely, bring me a hammer and take off his shoes. Be very happy there are people willing to do a job you don't have the stomach for, Neville. Idealism is great in a classroom but it doesn't feed the livestock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNRed Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Be very happy there are people willing to do a job you don't have the stomach for, Neville. Idealism is great in a classroom but it doesn't feed the livestock. 505859[/snapback] Amen. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Thanks for the compliment professor, sorry it went over my head. I'm just a street guy, so I saw it as Bull--shiit. Which is really what it was. How's that for nuance, Cheers. 505838[/snapback] And I agree. I couldn't believe how the Bushies actually bought in to that line of thinking. Maybe it was a lack of thinking that caused that. But yours was a beautiful post, I wouldn't expect anything less out of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 If I've got a tango in my possession who has information that is going to keep alot of innocent people alive but won't tell me when I ask nicely, bring me a hammer and take off his shoes. 505859[/snapback] Amateur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNRed Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 I hear you. I'd love it if no more of our guys (and gals) were hurt or killed over there. I'd have loved the mission to be as cut and dry as we were told it would be - liberators welcomed with flowers and all - but unfortunately, that's just not the reality we face, so we must deal with that reality. 505780[/snapback] Wow, that's quite a jump all the way over to the "We were told we'd be welcomed with flowers" line. Not sure what that has to do with people calling our soldiers "war criminals" when in fact we've been fighting one of the most careful wars of all time for two and a half years now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 Amateur. 505865[/snapback] No hurling insults while I'm playing my version of xylophone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 I hope no one you love is ever in harm's way. You're going to be in for a rude "sense of self" awakening. The world outside your window ain't like the one you watch on television. If I've got a tango in my possession who has information that is going to keep alot of innocent people alive but won't tell me when I ask nicely, bring me a hammer and take off his shoes. And according John McCain, who knows a little more about the mindset of a tortured person than you do, said that you'd fail miserably. You'd be told whatever it was that the tortuted person thought you wanted to hear. But again, that's just McCain's take. I'm sure you knopw more about it than he does... Be very happy there are people willing to do a job you don't have the stomach for, Neville. Idealism is great in a classroom but it doesn't feed the livestock. 505859[/snapback] Let me clue in on on something there Skip. It's not about idealism learned in a classroom. It's aout idealism learned in reading the United States Constitution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 And I agree. I couldn't believe how the Bushies actually bought in to that line of thinking. Maybe it was a lack of thinking that caused that. But yours was a beautiful post, I wouldn't expect anything less out of you. 505864[/snapback] You really need to work on being more subliminal Chris. I'm glad you're feeling better today. BtW, you skirt is showing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 No hurling insults while I'm playing my version of xylophone. 505869[/snapback] I hear that makes people go blind. But at least that explains why otherwise rational people have wrapped their lips around the crack pipe that is "Bush War." Just one more fix, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 BtW, you skirt is showing. 505875[/snapback] That's what I get for rushing while getting dressed in the dark. We didn't know you were coming home from work early last night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 And according John McCain, who knows a little more about the mindset of a tortured person than you do, said that you'd fail miserably. You'd be told whatever it was that the tortuted person thought you wanted to hear. But again, that's just McCain's take. I'm sure you knopw more about it than he does... Gee, you're right on this one Chris. Every person is handled EXACTLY the same way in every situation. You're so far out of your element that you don't even understand how ridiculous you sound. Now tell me how Jack Bauer would handle it to complete your argument. Let me clue in on on something there Skip. It's not about idealism learned in a classroom. It's aout idealism learned in reading the United States Constitution. 505873[/snapback] Which part of the Constitution deals with torturing prisoners of war? I missed that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erynthered Posted November 17, 2005 Share Posted November 17, 2005 That's what I get for rushing while getting dressed in the dark. We didn't know you were coming home from work early last night. 505885[/snapback] It's called an allegory. Given the track record of people's inability to pick up on the nuances of the written word, I probably shouldn't have used it. Thanks for playing, that was to easy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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