The "Christian" right

[Mickey]

Sorry I overlooked this.  Many of the quotes are in personnal letters written by their own hand.  Thomas Paine's was from The Age of Reason, a pamphlet similar to his Common Sense which was used to galvanize the colonies and make them join a rebellion.

 

Probably the most damning quote is the one from John Adams.  Unlike governments of the past, the founding fathers set up a government divorced from religion. The establishment of a secular government did not require a reflection to themselves about its origin; they knew this as an unspoken given.

 

However, as the U.S. delved into international affairs, few foreign nations knew about the intentions of America. For this reason, an insight from at a little known but legal document written in the late 1700s explicitly reveals the secular nature of the United States to a foreign nation. Officially called the "Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary," most refer to it as simply the Treaty of Tripoli. Article XI states, "As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

 

The document was written by Adams and unanimously carried in Congress with no debate. It is also significant to know that the US Constitution requires that any agreement, accord, or treaty entered into and approved by Congress becomes the law of the land.  The argument could be made that federal law prohibits Americans from laying claim to living in a "Christian nation."

 

This whole Christian nation thingy is a myth.  Period, end of story.

504080[/snapback]

My gawd, I actually learned something at this site. Wonders never cease.

 

Thanks Campy

[Alaska Darin]

The funny thing is that my Poli Sci prof is a moderate-to-hardcore Libertarian, depending upon the issues.  I was nervous about taking a Poli Sci class, I was afraid I'd get stuck with some devout socialist and learn nothing, but it turned out to be an awesome class.

 

I guess it's because I'm old enough to be most of my classmates' father, but he had me over to his place a few weekends to meet his wife and kids.  We'd have a few "age-appropriate" beverages and shoot the bull.  Real interesting guy that can take and/or argue any position when it comes to politics. I got a lot out of his class - he makes you think for yourself and not regurgitate material from a text.

504134[/snapback]

Buy him a cold one for me.

[OnTheRocks]

In a long line of ignorant things said over here at PPP, that's right up there. Nice work. Not only weren't the founding fathers Christian, many were avowedly non-Christian.

 

Here's a smattering of proof. If you want more, just ask. Or maybe read a little history.

 

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." - Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

 

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" - John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

 

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" - John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

 

"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

 

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson, from "Notes on Virginia"

 

 

"[T]he government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;" United States Treaty (1796-1797)

 

"In the circle of my acquaintance (which has not been small), I have generally been denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious I am no Christian, except mere infant baptism make me one; and as to being a Deist, I know not, strictly speaking, whether I am one or not, for I have never read their writings; mine will therefore determine the matter; for I have not in the least disguised my sentiments, but have written freely without any conscious knowledge of prejudice for, or against any man, sectary or party whatever; but wish that good sense, truth and virtue may be promoted and flourish in the world, to the detection of delusion, superstition, and false religion; and therefore my errors in the succeeding treatise, which may be rationally pointed out, will be readily rescinded." Ethan Allen

 

"My parents had early given me religious impressions, and brought me through my childhood piously in the dissenting [puritan] way. But I was scarce 15 when, after doubting by turns of several points as I found them disputed in the different books I read, I began to doubt of Revelation it self. Some books against deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at [Robert] Boyle’s lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough deist." Benjamin Franklin

 

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." Thomas Paine

 

"Washington's religious belief was that of the enlightenment: deism. He practically never used the word ‘God,’ preferring the more impersonal word ‘Providence.’ How little he visualized Providence in personal form is shown by the fact that he interchangeably applied to that force all three possible pronouns: he, she, and it."James Thomas Flexner

504120[/snapback]

 

 

In a long line of ignorant things said over here at PPP, that's right up there. Nice work.

 

Why is it that the men who wrote the Constitution and Declaration of Independance and the men who signed the documents typically the only ones considered the Founding Fathers? Try looking that the individual State Constitutions and then try and tell me the men responsible for those documents were'nt Christian.

 

Do borrow your words:

 

Here's a smattering of proof. If you want more, just ask. Or maybe read a little history.

 

Publice Office Restricted to Christians

 

The New Jersey Constitution of 1776 restricted public office to all but Protestants by its religious test/oath.

The Delaware Constitution of 1776 demanded an acceptance of the Trinity by its religious test/oath.

The Pennsylvania Constitution of 1776 had a similar test/oath.

The Maryland Constitution of 1776 had such a test/oath.

The North Carolina Constitution of 1776 had a test/oath that restricted all but Protestants from public office.

The Georgia Constitution of 1777 used an oath/test to screen out all but Protestants.

The Vermont state charter/constitution of 1777 echoed the Pennsylvania Constitution regarding a test/oath.

The South Carolina Constitution of 1778 had such a test/oath allowing only Protestants to hold office.

The Massachusetts Constitution of 1780 and New Hampshire Constitution of 1784 restricted such office holders to Protestants.

Only Virginia and New York did not have such religious tests/oaths during this time period.

[jshockeyguy7]

84% of America practices some form of christian faith, is there any logical argument as to not include christianity in our government if it is the will of the majority of the people? Please note this is not an argument for or against, just an observation.

[Alaska Darin]

84% of America practices some form of christian faith, is there any logical argument as to not include christianity in our government if it is the will of the majority of the people?  Please note this is not an argument for or against, just an observation.

504168[/snapback]

I don't care if it's 99.9%. Religion doesn't belong in government, which history has shown over and over again (I'm not talking about opening Congress with prayer, either). The rights of the .01% in my scenario will truly define what "freedom" really is.

[OnTheRocks]

I don't care if it's 99.9%.  Religion doesn't belong in government, which history has shown over and over again (I'm not talking about opening Congress with prayer, either).  The rights of the .01% in my scenario will truly define what "freedom" really is.

504175[/snapback]

 

 

 

i agree 100% that religion doesn't belong in Gov't. And I will go so far as to say that the Founding Fathers were not "Christian" in the strictest sense of the word, but the country was founded by the Founding Fathers and the men who actually settled the land on Christian and Biblical principles.

[KRC]

In a long line of ignorant things said over here at PPP, that's right up there. Nice work.

 

Why is it that the men who wrote the Constitution and Declaration of Independance and the men who signed the documents typically the only ones considered the Founding Fathers?  Try looking that the individual State Constitutions and then try and tell me the men responsible for those documents were'nt Christian.

 

Do borrow your words:

Publice Office Restricted to Christians

504163[/snapback]

 

 

From the PA Constitution (no, I am not looking up the remaining states):

September 28, 1776

 

II. That all men have a natural and unalienable right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own consciences and understanding: And that no man ought or of right can be compelled to attend any religious worship, or erect or support any place of worship, or maintain any ministry, contrary to, or against, his own free will and consent: Nor can any man, who acknowledges the being of a God, be justly deprived or abridged of any civil right as a citizen, on account of his religious sentiments or peculiar mode of religious worship: And that no authority can or ought to be vested in, or assumed by any power whatever, that shall in any case interfere with, or in any manner controul, the right of conscience in the free exercise of religious worship.

 

and

 

Section 10:

A quorum of the house of representatives shall consist of two-thirds of the whole number of members elected; and having met and chosen their speaker, shall each of them before they proceed to business take and subscribe, as well the oath or affirmation of fidelity and allegiance hereinafter directed, as the following oath or affirmation, viz:

 

I do swear (or affirm) that as a member of this assembly, I will not propose or assent to any bill, vote, or resolution, which stall appear to free injurious to the people; nor do or consent to any act or thing whatever, that shall have a tendency to lessen or abridge their rights and privileges, as declared in the constitution of this state; but will in all things conduct myself as a faithful honest representative and guardian of the people, according to the best of only judgment and abilities.

 

And each member, before he takes his seat, shall make and subscribe the following declaration, viz:

 

I do believe in one God, the creator and governor of the universe, the rewarder of the good and the punisher of the wicked. And I do acknowledge the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by Divine inspiration.

 

And no further or other religious test shall ever hereafter be required of any civil officer or magistrate in this State.

[OnTheRocks]

II. That all men have a natural and unalienable right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own consciences and understanding: And that no man ought or of right can be compelled to attend any religious worship, or erect or support any place of worship, or maintain any ministry, contrary to, or against, his own free will and consent: Nor can any man, who acknowledges the being of a God, be justly deprived or abridged of any civil right as a citizen, on account of his religious sentiments or peculiar mode of religious worship: And that no authority can or ought to be vested in, or assumed by any power whatever, that shall in any case interfere with, or in any manner controul, the right of conscience in the free exercise of religious worship.

 

I'm not going to look up the other states either but these words are the direct result of the work Roger Williams put into getting the charter for the Rhode Island colony.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

i agree 100% that religion doesn't belong in Gov't.  And I will go so far as to say that the Founding Fathers were not "Christian" in the strictest sense of the word, but the country was founded by the Founding Fathers and the men who actually settled the land on Christian and Biblical principles.

504189[/snapback]

 

News flash, space cadet: Most of western culture, history, and philosophy is based on the Bible and Christianity. But directly, the US government was actually founded on English common law and European liberalism, which itself has roots in the Renissiance, which itself was founded on the ashes of the Holy Roman Empire.

 

But let's pretend that a third order relation to the demise of a strict Christian- and Biblically-based government is the same as a dependency on the Bible.

[Campy]

84% of America practices some form of christian faith, is there any logical argument as to not include christianity in our government if it is the will of the majority of the people?  Please note this is not an argument for or against, just an observation.

504168[/snapback]

The challenges we'd run into are similar to what we see happening in other nations. Google "Orange Green Irish" and read about their struggles for example. It's been going on since the Reformation and still isn't resolved. Those are the types of issues our founding fathers wanted to avoid.

[Campy]

I'm not going to look up the other states either but these words are the direct result of the work Roger Williams put into getting the charter for the Rhode Island colony.

504192[/snapback]

Exactly. And that's fine. The states had the right to do it, but after the Articles of Confederation were scrapped for the Constitution, the federal government's laws, especially when it came to things like the freedoms of the new nation's (white male) citizenry, were designed to trump state law.

 

I'm not trying to be anti-God by any stretch of the imagination. I believe in God, I believe that His Son died for us. Shoot, I taught Sunday School for crying out loud. But when you look at the history of nations that espouse or promote a state-sponsored religion, I for one, wouldn't want that going on here. It leads to too many problems.

 

Unfortunately for modern-day American Christians, of which the majority of Americans are, that means a total separation of church and state, lest the majority persecute the minority. Being Christian, members of our faith have been on the receiving end of such persecution far too many times to allow even the spectre of Christians persecuting non-Christians, intentionally or otherwise, to rear its truly ugly head.

[buckeyemike]

I don't want my government to force a particular religion upon me. Someday, the Christians may not be the majority in this country.

 

And then, if the populace wants me to convert to, say, Islam, my rights to practice my religion will be protected under the Constitution.

 

It all depends on whose ox is getting gored.

 

Mike

[Ghost of BiB]

I don't want my government to force a particular religion upon me.  Someday, the Christians may not be the majority in this country. 

 

And then, if the populace wants me to convert to, say, Islam, my rights to practice my religion will be protected under the Constitution. 

 

It all depends on whose ox is getting gored. 

 

Mike

504252[/snapback]

 

I suppose this would be a bad time to bring up my non-mainstream Muslim Pan-Islamic Caliphate speech from two years ago?

[Campy]

Buy him a cold one for me.

504138[/snapback]

Will do. There were so many times he'd say something and it sounded exactly like one of your or Ken's posts. I told him about PPP and invited him to check it out but his response was along the lines of "I'm too damn old to try to get people to think for themselves all day at work to come home and do the same with buffoons who've never read the damn Constitution."

 

I told him he was probably right - on both counts.

[stuckincincy]

Religion was more prevalent in public education and general society than it is today. Yet, no theocracy occured.

 

Given the lessening of religion in the public arena, it is curious that some are so antagonistic about it today.

 

It's not as if religion is to blame for carjacking, kidnapping, security cameras, security devices on clothing, divorce, child abuse, the change in adults from protecting kids from the adult world to exploiting them as an economic conquest, abortion, shootings over pettiness, intrusive employment applications, attacks on folks smoking a legal product, attacks on restuarants for selling food, animal behavior at sporting events, lewd behavior and language on tv and radio, and so forth.

 

Perhaps the rejection of religion has something to do with some of the above. But I am sure someone will step up and tell my just why those things are false, call me an oppressor, ignorant, stupid, etc., as they paint themselves as understanding and enlightened, only wishing to point out the error of my ways.

 

[Campy]

Religion was more prevalent in public education and general society than it is today. Yet, no theocracy occured.

 

Given the lessening of religion in the public arena, it is curious that some are so  antagonistic about it today.

 

It's not as if religion is to blame for carjacking, kidnapping, security cameras, security devices on clothing, divorce, child abuse, the change in adults from protecting kids from the adult world to exploiting them as an economic conquest, abortion, shootings over pettiness, intrusive employment applications, attacks on folks smoking a legal product, attacks on restuarants for selling food, animal behavior at sporting events, lewd behavior and language on tv and radio, and so forth.

 

Perhaps the rejection of religion has something to do with some of the above. But I am sure someone will step up and tell my just why those things are false, call me an oppressor, ignorant, stupid, etc., as they paint themselves as understanding and enlightened, only wishing to point out the error of my ways.

 

504278[/snapback]

Crime is hardly new, but that's an interesting take. Part of it may be an increase in materialism and rampant consumerism - people working more to buy "stuff" they may or may not need and leaving young impressionable minds to be influenced by the wrong er - influences. Some if it may be poor parenting, some of it may be desperation of people in the lower social and economic classes, and a pretty good part of it may be no fear of ultimate judgment, although I do know agnostics and atheists whose actions are more "Christian" than those of many of the people I see on Sunday mornings. I dunno'.

 

But I don't buy that people should get their faith from the government (not that you're inferring they should). Personally, I think it comes from the home and church - but my perception is likely more than a little skewed as my father was an Episcopal priest.

[Mickey]

Religion was more prevalent in public education and general society than it is today. Yet, no theocracy occured.

 

Given the lessening of religion in the public arena, it is curious that some are so  antagonistic about it today.

 

It's not as if religion is to blame for carjacking, kidnapping, security cameras, security devices on clothing, divorce, child abuse, the change in adults from protecting kids from the adult world to exploiting them as an economic conquest, abortion, shootings over pettiness, intrusive employment applications, attacks on folks smoking a legal product, attacks on restuarants for selling food, animal behavior at sporting events, lewd behavior and language on tv and radio, and so forth.

 

Perhaps the rejection of religion has something to do with some of the above. But I am sure someone will step up and tell my just why those things are false, call me an oppressor, ignorant, stupid, etc., as they paint themselves as understanding and enlightened, only wishing to point out the error of my ways.

 

504278[/snapback]

What rejection of religion are you talking about? The people of this country overwhelmingly accept religion. By that kind of logic, I would conclude that all these nasty things must therefore be caused by religion. I see no causal relationship between religion and all the bad things in the world nor all the good things either.

[stuckincincy]

- but my perception is likely more than a little skewed as my father was an Episcopal priest.

504317[/snapback]

 

I think your perception would serve well for most folks. Seems to me that your father did not skew, but pointed you in a direction, as a good father must do, understanding that the path taken is up to you, but confident that he gave you the tools necessary to make good choices and not collapse over the bad ones.

[Campy]

I think your perception would serve well for most folks. Seems to me that your father did not skew, but pointed you in a direction, as a good father must do, understanding that the path taken is up to you, but confident that he gave you the tools necessary to make good choices and not collapse over the bad ones.

504338[/snapback]

Thanks for the kind words about ol' Father Bernie. Lord knows I'm not without fault but I think he did a pretty good job too.

[Chilly]

abortion, lewd behavior and language on tv and radio, and so forth.

 

Perhaps the rejection of religion has something to do with some of the above. But I am sure someone will step up and tell my just why those things are false, call me an oppressor, ignorant, stupid, etc., as they paint themselves as understanding and enlightened, only wishing to point out the error of my ways.

504278[/snapback]

 

Hmm, thats true, but if I recall correctly religion is the driving force behind changing the definition of science in this country.

 

I also seem to recall that they are pushing to make gay Americans not equal to straight Americans just because they're not straight.