The "Christian" right

[RuntheDamnBall]

Keep in mind that I consider myself a Christian, but to claim this country was founded as a Christian nation is not entirely accurate...

 

The founding fathers were a reflection of the American population. Having escaped from the state-established religions of Europe, only 7% of the people in the 13 colonies belonged to a church when the Declaration of Independence was signed. 

 

Unlike you, I'm a tolerant Christian.  I won't implore you to leave the country if you don't like the reality that the US was not founded as a Christian nation.

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Campy, this post should be pinned. You hit the nail on the head. Thank you.

[OnTheRocks]

only 7% of the people in the 13 colonies belonged to a church when the Declaration of Independence was signed. 

 

 

Link?

[OnTheRocks]

Keep in mind that I consider myself a Christian, but to claim this country was founded as a Christian nation is not entirely accurate.

 

This nation was ofunded by as many Deists as it was by Christians.  Remember, merely believing in God does not make a person a Christian. The Bible says that "the fool says in his heart, there is no God." Our founding fathers were certainly not fools. But the Bible also says "You say you believe in God. Good. The demons also believe and tremble."  Believing in God is insufficient evidence for demonstrating either Christian principles or that a person is a Christian.

 

To wit:

 

“Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. I had hoped that liberal and enlightened thought would have reconciled the Christians so that their religious fights would not endanger the peace of Society.” - George Washington

 

“The Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.” - John Adams

 

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in this particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth" - Thomas Jefferson, author of the Jeffersonian Bible, which is devoid of any miracles or healings and ends with Jesus' burial.

 

"The establishment of a Christian chaplainship to Congress is a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles."  - James Madison

 

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, I have some doubts as to his Divinity." - Ben Franklin

 

"Religion, which should most distinguish us from beasts, and ought most particularly to elevate us, as rational creatures, above brutes, is that wherein men often appear most irrational, and more senseless than beasts themselves.” - John Locke

 

"It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible." - Thomas Paine

 

The founding fathers were a reflection of the American population. Having escaped from the state-established religions of Europe, only 7% of the people in the 13 colonies belonged to a church when the Declaration of Independence was signed. 

 

Unlike you, I'm a tolerant Christian.  I won't implore you to leave the country if you don't like the reality that the US was not founded as a Christian nation.

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someone said this post is so right on the nail it should be pinned. i disagree. unless you can show the context of your quotes they don't have any more integrity than these:

 

"The Bible is the Rock on which this Republic rests."

(Andrew Jackson)

 

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible."

(George Washington)

 

"The reason that Christianity is the best friend of Government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart."

(Thomas Jefferson)

 

"The liberty, prosperity, and the happiness of our country will always be the object of my most fervent prayers to the Supreme Author of All Good."

(James Monroe)

 

 

yeah..i know...Supreme Author doesn't mean anything either.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

It was. By scientists.

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Really? Well, Praise the Lord!!!!

 

[Campy]

"The Bible is the Rock on which this Republic rests."

(Andrew Jackson)

Not a founding father, but he did institute the inherently corrupt Spoils System (political cronyism) that is still with us today. Yup, AJ's a real winner alright. But he did claim to be outwardly Christian even though his actions, both in the military and in the White House didn't demonstrate it.

 

"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible."

(George Washington)

 

"The reason that Christianity is the best friend of Government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart."

(Thomas Jefferson)

These quotes indicates that they appreciate the power of religious fervor in influencing the lemm, er, populace, to a specific political agenda.

 

"The liberty, prosperity, and the happiness of our country will always be the object of my most fervent prayers to the Supreme Author of All Good."

(James Monroe)

yeah..i know...Supreme Author doesn't mean anything either.

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You're right, it doesn't. Believing in God does not make one a Christian. Google "Deism." Ask a Jew if he believes in God. Then ask that Jew if he is a Christian.

[Campy]

Link?

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It's number widely accepted by historians based on conservative estimates of the population and church tithing records. I'd like to post a link, but it's from a text book (I'm a History major).

[OGTEleven]

Faith, I have been taught, is the answer.  What is faith?  Belief without proof.  In every other field of human study, belief without proof is held in disdain yet belief without proof is cherished as the greatest of virtues in relgion.  Why do I tolerate this inconsistency?  Is it because it is true or is it because I have been trained, taught, rehearsed and immersed in its truth from birth onward?

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Although I have truncated it, I pretty much agree with your whole post as it relates to God. I do feel there are arguments to be made on where faith/God fits in government. I don't think that a government forcing a religion upon its people is one that will work. Nor do I think a government prohibited by its people from acknowledging God is healthy.

 

I have a question for you about faith which is unrelated to government. If you knew there was a God (and you were the only one that knew) what would be your recommendation for him/her regarding proof/faith? Would you tell God that he should show himself once in a while to keep us all in line? Should he speak with us individually and directly? Should he pretty much stay out of it but prevent diseases and catastrophes? It's up to you, what do you think?

 

Disclaimer: This is not meant to be obnoxious in any way. I'm interested in your response (and those of any other poster). It is also not meant to be used as proof/disproof of God in any way shape manner or form.

[Campy]

unless you can show the context of your quotes they don't have any more integrity than these:

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Sorry I overlooked this. Many of the quotes are in personnal letters written by their own hand. Thomas Paine's was from The Age of Reason, a pamphlet similar to his Common Sense which was used to galvanize the colonies and make them join a rebellion.

 

Probably the most damning quote is the one from John Adams. Unlike governments of the past, the founding fathers set up a government divorced from religion. The establishment of a secular government did not require a reflection to themselves about its origin; they knew this as an unspoken given.

 

However, as the U.S. delved into international affairs, few foreign nations knew about the intentions of America. For this reason, an insight from at a little known but legal document written in the late 1700s explicitly reveals the secular nature of the United States to a foreign nation. Officially called the "Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary," most refer to it as simply the Treaty of Tripoli. Article XI states, "As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

 

The document was written by Adams and unanimously carried in Congress with no debate. It is also significant to know that the US Constitution requires that any agreement, accord, or treaty entered into and approved by Congress becomes the law of the land. The argument could be made that federal law prohibits Americans from laying claim to living in a "Christian nation."

 

This whole Christian nation thingy is a myth. Period, end of story.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Sorry I overlooked this.  Many of the quotes are in personnal letters written by their own hand.  Thomas Paine's was from The Age of Reason, a pamphlet similar to his Common Sense which was used to galvanize the colonies and make them join a rebellion.

 

Probably the most damning quote is the one from John Adams.  Unlike governments of the past, the founding fathers set up a government divorced from religion. The establishment of a secular government did not require a reflection to themselves about its origin; they knew this as an unspoken given.

 

However, as the U.S. delved into international affairs, few foreign nations knew about the intentions of America. For this reason, an insight from at a little known but legal document written in the late 1700s explicitly reveals the secular nature of the United States to a foreign nation. Officially called the "Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary," most refer to it as simply the Treaty of Tripoli. Article XI states, "As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

 

The document was written by Adams and unanimously carried in Congress with no debate. It is also significant to know that the US Constitution requires that any agreement, accord, or treaty entered approved by Congress becomes the law of the land.  The argument could be made that federal law prohibits Americans from laying claim to living in a "Christian nation."

 

This whole Christian nation thingy is a myth.  Period, end of story.

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Hardly the "end of story"...but that was very well argued. One of the most cogent I've ever seen here.

 

Now give Campy back his username, whoever you are.

[Campy]

Hardly the "end of story"...but that was very well argued.  One of the most cogent I've ever seen here. 

 

Now give Campy back his username, whoever you are. 

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Where's that little FU emoticom when you need it?

 

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Where's that little FU emoticom when you need it?

 

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And another thing...John Adams' Treaty of Tripoli? Couldn't you have found anything...I don't know...more obscure, maybe?

[Campy]

 

And another thing...John Adams' Treaty of Tripoli?  Couldn't you have found anything...I don't know...more obscure, maybe? 

504091[/snapback]

I won't pretend to know a lot about a lot, but I do know a little about history.

 

EDIT: I guess I should have disclosed that last semester I wrote a paper for a Poli Sci class that involved the seperation of church and state. And yes, I recieved an 'A'

[Johnny Coli]

Sorry I overlooked this.  Many of the quotes are in personnal letters written by their own hand.  Thomas Paine's was from The Age of Reason, a pamphlet similar to his Common Sense which was used to galvanize the colonies and make them join a rebellion.

 

Probably the most damning quote is the one from John Adams.  Unlike governments of the past, the founding fathers set up a government divorced from religion. The establishment of a secular government did not require a reflection to themselves about its origin; they knew this as an unspoken given.

 

However, as the U.S. delved into international affairs, few foreign nations knew about the intentions of America. For this reason, an insight from at a little known but legal document written in the late 1700s explicitly reveals the secular nature of the United States to a foreign nation. Officially called the "Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary," most refer to it as simply the Treaty of Tripoli. Article XI states, "As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

 

The document was written by Adams and unanimously carried in Congress with no debate. It is also significant to know that the US Constitution requires that any agreement, accord, or treaty entered into and approved by Congress becomes the law of the land.  The argument could be made that federal law prohibits Americans from laying claim to living in a "Christian nation."

 

This whole Christian nation thingy is a myth.  Period, end of story.

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Very nice work, Campy.

 

Try passing The Treaty of Tripoli nowadays with that exact wording. There would be a freaking riot in the House of Representatives.

[RkFast]

 

And another thing...John Adams' Treaty of Tripoli?  Couldn't you have found anything...I don't know...more obscure, maybe? 

504091[/snapback]

 

This is the internet, sonny....why dont you go look it up for yourself!!!!!

 

BWWWAAAAAHHHHHAAAA!!!!!!!

[Campy]

Very nice work, Campy. 

 

Try passing The Treaty of Tripoli nowadays with that exact wording.  There would be a freaking riot in the House of Representatives.

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It would be a riot to watch the riot on C-SPAN though, wouldn't it?

[Alexander Hamilton]

The United States was founded as a Christian country and continues to be one today. 

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In a long line of ignorant things said over here at PPP, that's right up there. Nice work. Not only weren't the founding fathers Christian, many were avowedly non-Christian.

 

Here's a smattering of proof. If you want more, just ask. Or maybe read a little history.

 

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." - Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

 

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" - John Adams, letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

 

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" - John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson

 

"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

 

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson, from "Notes on Virginia"

 

 

"[T]he government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;" United States Treaty (1796-1797)

 

"In the circle of my acquaintance (which has not been small), I have generally been denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious I am no Christian, except mere infant baptism make me one; and as to being a Deist, I know not, strictly speaking, whether I am one or not, for I have never read their writings; mine will therefore determine the matter; for I have not in the least disguised my sentiments, but have written freely without any conscious knowledge of prejudice for, or against any man, sectary or party whatever; but wish that good sense, truth and virtue may be promoted and flourish in the world, to the detection of delusion, superstition, and false religion; and therefore my errors in the succeeding treatise, which may be rationally pointed out, will be readily rescinded." Ethan Allen

 

"My parents had early given me religious impressions, and brought me through my childhood piously in the dissenting [puritan] way. But I was scarce 15 when, after doubting by turns of several points as I found them disputed in the different books I read, I began to doubt of Revelation it self. Some books against deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at [Robert] Boyle’s lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough deist." Benjamin Franklin

 

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." Thomas Paine

 

"Washington's religious belief was that of the enlightenment: deism. He practically never used the word ‘God,’ preferring the more impersonal word ‘Providence.’ How little he visualized Providence in personal form is shown by the fact that he interchangeably applied to that force all three possible pronouns: he, she, and it."James Thomas Flexner

[Chef Jim]

I won't pretend to know a lot about a lot, but I do know a little about history.

 

EDIT:  I guess I should have disclosed that last semester I wrote a paper for a Poli Sci class that involved the seperation of church and state. And yes, I recieved an 'A' 

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Well of course, because as we all know, all college professors are liberal, Christian hating scum.

[EC-Bills]

I won't pretend to know a lot about a lot, but I do know a little about history.

 

EDIT:  I guess I should have disclosed that last semester I wrote a paper for a Poli Sci class that involved the seperation of church and state. And yes, I recieved an 'A' 

504093[/snapback]

 

Teacher's pet!

[Alaska Darin]

It's number widely accepted by historians based on conservative estimates of the population and church tithing records.  I'd like to post a link, but it's from a text book (I'm a History major).

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NO QUOTING BOOKS ON THE INTERNET.

 

Damn.

[Campy]

Well of course, because as we all know, all college professors are liberal, Christian hating scum. 

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The funny thing is that my Poli Sci prof is a moderate-to-hardcore Libertarian, depending upon the issues. I was nervous about taking a Poli Sci class, I was afraid I'd get stuck with some devout socialist and learn nothing, but it turned out to be an awesome class.

 

I guess it's because I'm old enough to be most of my classmates' father, but he had me over to his place a few weekends to meet his wife and kids. We'd have a few "age-appropriate" beverages and shoot the bull. Real interesting guy that can take and/or argue any position when it comes to politics. I got a lot out of his class - he makes you think for yourself and not regurgitate material from a text.