Crap Throwing Monkey Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 OK. Any furthur research going on? 499730[/snapback] Nope. It's enough just to say it was designed that way. Physics decided instead to redefine the meaning of "physics" to reflect that reality... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Because biological molecules tend to be chirial, which will provide the opportunity for selevtive pressure against one (levo-, in your example) versus the other. 499700[/snapback] Well, that's the nub. The question is why that is so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Well, that's the nub. The quesation is why that is so. 499738[/snapback] Because particle physics was intelligently designed. QED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 That's a difficult concept? And - like you said - they are NOT identical. They are chirial - near mirror images, but with not insignificant differences. Just like <gasp> racemates. So why do people preferentially use one hand over the other? Must be because we were intelligently designed... 499733[/snapback] Life span of 75, teeth that last 40 (less in England). Intelligently designed? Maybe. If the designer were essentially an underachiever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Because particle physics was intelligently designed. QED. 499752[/snapback] God of the gaps. Anything we can't yet explain must be divine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 God of the gaps. Anything we can't yet explain must be divine. 499813[/snapback] What was that they said in Godfather II? Just when I think I'm out.....they pull me back in. I'm not real big on a God of the gaps either, but there is one thing that seems like a real big and pertinent gap to me. In my experience, many people that do not believe in God are very strong advocates for free will. Some even use it as part of their explanation of their own atheism. I have a hard time renconciling this. If God does not exist, then everything must at some level be driven by reactions of matter and energy along with all the other components of science/physics. Granted, this is highly complex and much of it is beyond our current understanding, but at some level, it should all be measurable and ultimately predictable. If that is true, free will could not really exist and everything is predetermined, even if we don't know how it will all turn out. Am I missing something? Disclaimer: I might have worded that question poorly, but please don't perceive it as some kind of shot at science/atheism/religion/scientists/lawyers/smart people/anything else. It was not meant to offend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMadCap Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 What was that they said in Godfather II? Just when I think I'm out.....they pull me back in. I'm not real big on a God of the gaps either, but there is one thing that seems like a real big and pertinent gap to me. In my experience, many people that do not believe in God are very strong advocates for free will. Some even use it as part of their explanation of their own atheism. I have a hard time renconciling this. If God does not exist, then everything must at some level be driven by reactions of matter and energy along with all the other components of science/physics. Granted, this is highly complex and much of it is beyond our current understanding, but at some level, it should all be measurable and ultimately predictable. If that is true, free will could not really exist and everything is predetermined, even if we don't know how it will all turn out. Am I missing something? Disclaimer: I might have worded that question poorly, but please don't perceive it as some kind of shot at science/atheism/religion/scientists/lawyers/smart people/anything else. It was not meant to offend. 499887[/snapback] Welcome to philosophy class 101. The debate between free will and what you think is free-will.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 What was that they said in Godfather II? Just when I think I'm out.....they pull me back in. I'm not real big on a God of the gaps either, but there is one thing that seems like a real big and pertinent gap to me. In my experience, many people that do not believe in God are very strong advocates for free will. Some even use it as part of their explanation of their own atheism. I have a hard time renconciling this. If God does not exist, then everything must at some level be driven by reactions of matter and energy along with all the other components of science/physics. Granted, this is highly complex and much of it is beyond our current understanding, but at some level, it should all be measurable and ultimately predictable. If that is true, free will could not really exist and everything is predetermined, even if we don't know how it will all turn out. Am I missing something? Disclaimer: I might have worded that question poorly, but please don't perceive it as some kind of shot at science/atheism/religion/scientists/lawyers/smart people/anything else. It was not meant to offend. 499887[/snapback] I think your premise, that everything is predictable, is in error. It is not and you don't need an all powerful being to inject randomness or unpredictability into the universe. You could go the other way on free will. If literal christians are right, those who believe in God, providing they have no other unforgiven sins, are going to heaven and those who do not believe are going to hell no matter how well they may have lived their lives in other respects. So the choice, the "free will", is believe or suffer eternal pain and agony. That is a metaphorical gun to your head far more persuasive than an actual shotgun. That's free will? I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMadCap Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 and it also can be argued that if there is no self determination, in other words, if God is omnipotent, then you are either predestined for heaven or hell. So what good is it for me to behave if I am going to hell anyway??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typical TBD Guy Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Welcome to philosophy class 101. The debate between free will and what you think is free-will.... 499898[/snapback] Or if OGTEleven wants to delve into the scientific side of his question, there's chaos theory, the physical arrows of time, and any of the Theory of Everythings (the most promising being Ed Witten and crew's superstring). They're the closest "answers" to this question that one will find in one's lifetime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 I think your premise, that everything is predictable, is in error. It is not and you don't need an all powerful being to inject randomness or unpredictability into the universe. Hard to understand, I can buy. Impossible for humans to understand, I can buy. Truly unpredictable I'm not sure I'm grasping. It's all just matter, energy, and time right? All of these things have measurable properties right? We won't ever have a computer (or brain) big enough to collect all the pertinent data (which is every data point in history) to be able to make full predictions. But unless I'm missing something, it is all theoretically predicatable. You could go the other way on free will. If literal christians are right, those who believe in God, providing they have no other unforgiven sins, are going to heaven and those who do not believe are going to hell no matter how well they may have lived their lives in other respects. So the choice, the "free will", is believe or suffer eternal pain and agony. That is a metaphorical gun to your head far more persuasive than an actual shotgun. That's free will? I don't think so. 499908[/snapback] I agree with you on this 100%. I will say that not all believers in God are literal christians. It is possible to believe in God and true free will. I think that someone that believes in God could believe: A - God has injected the randomnes (randonimity?) B - God has injected free will and allowed us to create our own randomness C - Both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 and it also can be argued that if there is no self determination, in other words, if God is omnipotent, then you are either predestined for heaven or hell. So what good is it for me to behave if I am going to hell anyway??? 499912[/snapback] IIRC (and it's been a long time since I was in a history course, so please someone with a much stronger history background than myself correct me if I am wrong) that when the Calvinists started out that is what their belief was - that all is predetermined by God. The way they got around the issue you bring up was by saying that not only had it been predetermined who would and would not make the cut, those that did make it would demonstrate in this life that they were going to Heaven by behaving better than everyone else. Kind of an olden days, let's rub the noses of the sinners in the fact that we're going up and they're going down sort of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 teeth that last 40 (less in England). 499810[/snapback] I have ancestors on my dad's side that came from England. I am quite offended that you have prejudice against the race of my father You wanna diss the rest of my English, Irish, Italien, German, and Scottish heritage for being toothless drunken mobster nazi's in skirts? But... But... It's okay to diss folks as long they come from Europe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finknottle Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Well, that's the nub. The question is why that is so? 499738[/snapback] Because everything either does or does not happen to provide a selective pressure under given circumstances. Those that do not, it doesn't occur to us to discuss. Those that do, we ponder the mystical significance of the existence of the preference and invariably ascribe it to God, destiny, or the orbit of Jupiter in the house of Virgo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finknottle Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 That does not follow at all. The goal is survival, not master-racehood. There are lots of excellent strategies for survival that would have nothing to do with creating a master race. Many species do quite well with no measurable intellegence at all or the ability to "master" others. Bacteria and viruses come to mind. 499549[/snapback] This point is worth emphasizing. The idea that we are superior is anthropomorphic. If we asked an alligator (and if they could answer) this 200 million year survivor would probably laugh at us like rookies who've had a great first week of training camp and think we're going to the HOF. I'd be surprised if we were around at all in another 1,000 years. So what about intelligence? It's a particular and usefull tool for survival, nothing more. It also carries a price: running a big brain burns a lot of energy, energy that could have been devoted to physical activity. For us, the sacrifice is worth it. For a bird, maybe not. And we may have peaked, since in the society we have constructed there is no survival advantage that I can see to offspring with further improved intelligence. If anything, the advantage now belongs to those genes encouraging high birthrate/low investment, since the classical disadvantages are weakened by the safety net we have constructed (ie drives toward overbreeding and overuse of resources are mitigated by aid from outside the region). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finknottle Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 there was an attractive black girl from mobile alabama that came and did a summer internship in one of the labs on my floor last summer...she comes from a good family, is well educated and is currently attending tuskegee medical schooall sounds good until you talk about anything involving religion...the girl is batshiat crazy...somehow, after taking all the biology classes required for premed, she believes in adam and eve and thinks evolution is bunk (i recall something about fossils and dinosaur bones were placed on earth by satan to fool people)...she also thinks the apocalypse is coming (pointed at the tsunamis in thailand and earthquakes from who knows when as coming signs...no idea what she thought of hurricane katrina, but i know it hit mobile pretty hard) also told me any non-christians were going straight to hell...doesn't matter if you heard of jesus or not pity...she was HOT! 498716[/snapback] I see a future in politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Hamilton Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 The jury is still out on science. --Jeb Bluth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 The jury is still out on science. --Jeb Bluth 500380[/snapback] wasn't that Jeb Bush? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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