obie_wan Posted November 9, 2005 Posted November 9, 2005 great points...we also need ot add these as well.. 1. As #4 overall pick, we had NO CHOICE how much to pay mike williams. Sure his play is not meeting his salary, but contrary to belief, we didnt not OVERPAY for MW. 2. To those people that beat the dead "trade down" horse...YOU MUST HAVE A TEAM THAT WANTS TO TRADE UP INTO YOUR SPOT TO DO SO!!!!!!!!! 497938[/snapback] GMs with conviction will make a deal. The reason teams don't move up is the ransom that is usually demanded. However, a GM is free is request a lower package to move down, get a better suited player at a more reasonable salary. Teflon Tom did not seriously pursue a trade prior to the draft because Joey H was his guy. TDs world fell apart when the Lions burst his bubble.
obie_wan Posted November 9, 2005 Posted November 9, 2005 Absolutely. The 2002 draft was a weak draft. If TD was an idiot to pick Big Mike then half of the GM's that year were idiots for their picks. Of the top 10 picks only Peppers and Roy Williams are studs and Dallas took alot of heat for drafting a safety that early. TD's other options? McKinnie, not much different than Mike. Jammer? Bills had Winfield and Clements. Simms or Henderson? Freeney turned out great but 10 teams passed on him because he was undersized. Sucks to have a high pick in a weak draft. That's why I always laugh when they talk about the biggest draft busts and mention Walt Patulski. Take a look at the 72 draft. Franco Harris at the 13th overall pick was the only HOFer in the 1st round. Hell, the Bills at one time or another had 5 of the players taken in the 1st round including 3 out of the first 4. (Patulski 1st, Sherman White 2nd, Bobby Moore (Ahmad Rashad) 4th, Jeff Kinney 23rd and Mike Kadish 25th). 497971[/snapback] yeah - Dwight Freeney was a total bust. Levi Jones is a quality LEFT tackle. Henderson & Haynesworth at DT (another position of need) have been very good pros. TD put all his eggs in the Joey H basket and failed to maneveur into position to obtain quality talent at reasonable cost.
JDG Posted November 9, 2005 Posted November 9, 2005 and to show you how hard these things are to predict, everybody - and i mean everybody - lashed out at cincy for drafting levi jones as high as they did. these things are really hard to predict. as for williams, he was playing pretty well this year but unfortunately got hurt. there isn't a player in the nfl who wouldn't have been hurt on that play in tampa. 498074[/snapback] Which goes to show that good drafting teams *do* make reaches.....
JDG Posted November 9, 2005 Posted November 9, 2005 Promo - I don't think that you can totally absolve TD of his pick by virtue of his pick being a product of the "expert consensus" beacuse TD is one of those guys who *forms* the expert consensus. All those mock drafts that we see in part get their starts from guys like TD calling up his buddy Len Pasquarelli at ESPN.com and other Bills staffers casually talking to the pro football media. If TD had recognized Freeney for what he is, and dropped some nuggets about Freeney in the media, the expectations game about the pick would have changed entirely. JDG
34-78-83 Posted November 9, 2005 Posted November 9, 2005 Since Obie wan was obviously present in the Bills war room and in direct communication with TD during the 2002 draft, please refer all questions or opinions regarding this to Obie himself
BADOLBILZ Posted November 9, 2005 Posted November 9, 2005 interesting. i had wondered how mckinnie was doing this year. i hadn't heard any news from 1 bills drive, however. to be fair, though, you have to admit that williams was playing pretty well from the second half of last season up until his injury, which is not something he could have avoided. to reiterate, any player in the nfl would have been hurt on that play (ie, it's hardly the case that he's out now because he's 'injury prone'). 498295[/snapback] Williams gets hurt because he's unathletic and overweight. Injuries are a huge issue with Williams. Durability is critical for offensive lineman, moreso than any other position except QB. To be worth a damn,they have to be on the field. If you throw out this wasted season, he still has had a laundry list of injuries to his lower body and even suffered a bad concussion after being toppled in pass protection. Williams played well down the stretch last year, and was a dominant run blocker. But he is still barely adequate in pass protection. Translation: when healthy, he's a right tackle or guard. I am not the biggest TD basher, but I refuse to write this one off. The Bills already had an injury prone right tackle in Jonas Jennings, and Williams has yet to play at the level Jennings played at RT. Williams had a weight problem and a knee that concerned a lot of teams. This wasn't taking a gamble late in the first round or early second round, this was a prime pick. TD got cute and we got The Big Excuse. In fairness, real fairness, I will give TD credit for picking up Gandy. He's been a bargain and if the team were playing better defensively he would be gettiing more credit. Also, TD was wise to get an athlete like Peters. But we need to see more of that. He tends to leave positions undermanned, and we need to be the ones picking up a Gerard Warren when we lose PW, or picking up Terry Glenn from Green Bay when we dealt Peerless Price. I think it's an arrogance on TD's part that he believes he can just repeatedly jam lesser talented players into positions vacated by key players. IMO, this is the third season he's killed by whiffing on readily available veteran talent. First was when he passed on Sam Adams in 2002. Then when we didn't replace Price in 2003 and this season when they didn't replace Pat Williams.
GG Posted November 9, 2005 Posted November 9, 2005 And to Teflon Tom's defense, he didn't plan on drafting Fat Mike. He fully expected to draft Joey Harrington and did not explore other options to trade the pick because he was convinced Joey H would be available. (Joey would have sucked as well, but he would not have made the Bledsoe trade- thus keeping a boatload of top picks since wasted on Drew and JP) 498421[/snapback] I thought that there was talk about him trying to trade down in the draft, but found no takers. The 2002 draft is undoubtedly the nadir of TD's tenure, and is the biggest reason we are here today. There's really no reason to manufacture other stuff about his performance, when there is plenty of real life evidence of personnel mistakes.
Bill from NYC Posted November 9, 2005 Posted November 9, 2005 I thought that there was talk about him trying to trade down in the draft, but found no takers. The 2002 draft is undoubtedly the nadir of TD's tenure, and is the biggest reason we are here today. There's really no reason to manufacture other stuff about his performance, when there is plenty of real life evidence of personnel mistakes. 498474[/snapback] "Nadir" huh? Damn, I was just about to use that word in one of my posts! Nice Bro.
ganesh Posted November 9, 2005 Posted November 9, 2005 GMs with conviction will make a deal. The reason teams don't move up is the ransom that is usually demanded. However, a GM is free is request a lower package to move down, get a better suited player at a more reasonable salary. Teflon Tom did not seriously pursue a trade prior to the draft because Joey H was his guy. TDs world fell apart when the Lions burst his bubble. 498422[/snapback] I don't think GMs go with one-dimensional ideas.....I am sure they had backup plans...To think they would go with one player is naive, considering the stakes...In fact I remember both TD and GW personally going to Texas to check out Williams. I agree with making a trade that does not require a ransom...But think how it will fall on your face if this #4 guy you traded went on to have a All-Pro season, while the bunch of lower picks you made were all also-rans...Remember that was not considered one of the strong drafts....just like this year... Look at the # of contributors friom this years rookie class....Not many... especially the top 4 RBs that were draftedd.....2 are not even startiong for their teams...
obie_wan Posted November 9, 2005 Posted November 9, 2005 I don't think GMs go with one-dimensional ideas.....I am sure they had backup plans...To think they would go with one player is naive, considering the stakes...In fact I remember both TD and GW personally going to Texas to check out Williams. I agree with making a trade that does not require a ransom...But think how it will fall on your face if this #4 guy you traded went on to have a All-Pro season, while the bunch of lower picks you made were all also-rans...Remember that was not considered one of the strong drafts....just like this year... Look at the # of contributors friom this years rookie class....Not many... especially the top 4 RBs that were draftedd.....2 are not even startiong for their teams... 498499[/snapback] all the more reason to get out of the top 10 where the cost to sign the talent is more manageable if the player does bust. Not to mention your odds of total failure are further reduced by having extra picks.
Buckeye Eric Posted November 9, 2005 Posted November 9, 2005 No GM has a crystal ball. If a good player decides to be a fat load after he signs his big contract, there isn't anything you can do, other than cut him. And even then you have to give them a few years to prove they're totally worthless. 497854[/snapback] Hear, Hear!
Sound_n_Fury Posted November 9, 2005 Posted November 9, 2005 Calling him dumb for drafting Mike Williams (as Sully does in today's column)is disingenuous. 497854[/snapback] The sound of one hand clapping...or is it doing something else?
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