dave mcbride Posted November 8, 2005 Posted November 8, 2005 I concur. If he turns out to be a great guard that would be ok too. But I think it is not about how bad MW has played as it is a combination of Peters holding his own and benny stinking up the joint. 497859[/snapback] would larry allen have been worth a #4 overall pick? i think so. let's hope mike williams can reach that level.
Alaska Darin Posted November 8, 2005 Posted November 8, 2005 I can only imagine the 'tard fest we'd have seen around here (which would still be going on because Williams AND McKinnie would be message board Pro Bowlers) had we picked ANY other position at that spot. As far as trading down goes, it takes two to tango. Looking at that draft, there wasn't a single "ready to make an impact" guarantee at four. Peppers was arguably the only one in the draft.
dave mcbride Posted November 8, 2005 Posted November 8, 2005 I agree, there are much worse drafts for available talent out there than 2002. Definitely some busts, but a lot of talent. 498039[/snapback] 2002 was a horrible draft. there are always going to be guys who pan out, but the number of guys who were busts was very, very high. charles grant for NO should be added to the boldface names, by the way. duckett should be dropped - the only place where he's not considered a huge disappointment is fantasy football. napoleon harris is also terrible and should be dropped. haynesworth has also disappointed, and ashley lelie has not been nearly as good as expected (although he seems to be doing ok this season). kendall simmons has been a pretty good player for pitt, so i'd add him.
dave mcbride Posted November 8, 2005 Posted November 8, 2005 I can only imagine the 'tard fest we'd have seen around here (which would still be going on because Williams AND McKinnie would be message board Pro Bowlers) had we picked ANY other position at that spot. As far as trading down goes, it takes two to tango. Looking at that draft, there wasn't a single "ready to make an impact" guarantee at four. Peppers was arguably the only one in the draft. 498068[/snapback] and to show you how hard these things are to predict, everybody - and i mean everybody - lashed out at cincy for drafting levi jones as high as they did. these things are really hard to predict. as for williams, he was playing pretty well this year but unfortunately got hurt. there isn't a player in the nfl who wouldn't have been hurt on that play in tampa.
Rico Posted November 8, 2005 Posted November 8, 2005 I supported drafting MW back then (without really having seen him play at Texas even). The OL in 2001 was that bad, and I thought bringing in a stud LT made sense. Every GM makes mistakes, it's inevitable. The good GM's, though, recognize those mistakes & take timely corrective action. It took a year for TD to acknowledge the mistake he made by trading for Bledsoe... actually made worse by restructuring Drew's contract, costing us a playoff spot and a $4M dead cap hit. It'll be most interesting to see how he handles MW this off-season. TD's holding a $5M dead cap hit "get out of jail" card, will he use it?
ektin Posted November 8, 2005 Posted November 8, 2005 1 Houston David Carr QB Fresno State2 Carolina Julius PeppersDE North Carolina 3 Detroit Joey Harrington QB Oregon 4 Buffalo Mike Williams T Texas 5 San Diego Quentin Jammer CB Texas 6 Kansas City Ryan Sims DT North Carolina 7 Minnesota Bryant McKinnie T Miami 8 Dallas Roy Williams FS Oklahoma 9 Jacksonville John Henderson DT Tennessee 10 Cincinnati Levi Jones T Arizona State 11 Indianapolis Dwight Freeney DE Syracuse 12 Arizona Wendell Bryant DT Wisconsin 13 New Orleans Donte' Stallworth WR Tennessee 14 N.Y. Giants Jeremy ShockeyTE Miami 15 Tennessee Albert Haynesworth DT Tennessee 16 Cleveland William Green RB Boston College 17 Oakland Phillip Buchanon CB Miami 18 Atlanta T.J. Duckett RB Michigan State 19 Denver Ashley Lelie WR Hawaii 20 Green Bay Javon Walker WR Florida State 21 New Bruschi (We're not worthy!) (We're not worthy!) (We're not worthy!) Daniel Graham TE Colorado 22 N.Y. Jets Bryan Thomas DE Ala.-Birmingham 23 Oakland Napoleon Harris ILB Northwestern 24 Baltimore Ed Reed SS Miami 25 New Orleans Charles Grant DE Georgia 26 Philadelphia Lito Sheppard CB Florida 27 San Francisco Mike Rumph CB Miami 28 Seattle Jerramy Stevens TE Washington 29 Chicago Marc Colombo T Boston College 30 Pittsburgh Kendall Simmons G Auburn 31 St. Louis Robert Thomas MLB UCLA 32 Washington Patrick Ramsey QB Tulane Well, the above boldfaced players seem ok. 498031[/snapback] As I stated, If TD is an idiot, then half the GM's in the league were idiots. Peppers was drafted before us, We had 2 1st round CB's on the roster so Jammer would have caused even more people to call TD an idiot, Henderson and Haynesworth were talked about but we already had Washington and Williams (that's from memory, think they were both there in 2002) Shockey? not many tight ends taken with the 4th overall pick. Lelie, Graham, and Duckett all share playing time with others. The other bold faced after the 10th pick would have been reaches for the 4th overall. Yes they turned out to be really good but for every Ed Reed you have a William Green. None were really considered top ten picks by most of the experts. I'm not trying to defend TD or big Mike but it's real easy to pick the 2002 draft in 2006, in 2002 Mike was a logical pick.
Bill from NYC Posted November 8, 2005 Posted November 8, 2005 would larry allen have been worth a #4 overall pick? i think so. let's hope mike williams can reach that level. 498066[/snapback] Yes, absolutely. So were Larry Little (a udfa), John Hannah, and some other OGs. The problem is that MW was not drafted as such, he was a RT; another clear reach with a #4. His deal was for 6 years. If he makes the switch and IS AS GOOD at OG as was Larry Little, this means he will have played 62 1/2% (3 1/2 seasons out of 6) of his time with the Bills out of position. Who do you think should get the blame for this? I am NOT trying to be combative. I merely want to know whether or not you think TD has any responsibility at all for the bad way this draft selection went down.
stuckincincy Posted November 8, 2005 Posted November 8, 2005 As I stated, If TD is an idiot, then half the GM's in the league were idiots. Peppers was drafted before us, We had 2 1st round CB's on the roster so Jammer would have caused even more people to call TD an idiot, Henderson and Haynesworth were talked about but we already had Washington and Williams (that's from memory, think they were both there in 2002) Shockey? not many tight ends taken with the 4th overall pick. Lelie, Graham, and Duckett all share playing time with others. The other bold faced after the 10th pick would have been reaches for the 4th overall. Yes they turned out to be really good but for every Ed Reed you have a William Green. None were really considered top ten picks by most of the experts. I'm not trying to defend TD or big Mike but it's real easy to pick the 2002 draft in 2006, in 2002 Mike was a logical pick. 498078[/snapback] More than half of the league's GM's are idiots. I'm not picking a fight, el, - just that the '02 draft produced some decent players. It's pretty much boom and bust year after year, although there are some late bloomers. And yes, very easy to pick apart a 4-year old draft - but you did bring it up...
SilverNRed Posted November 8, 2005 Posted November 8, 2005 I can only imagine the 'tard fest we'd have seen around here (which would still be going on because Williams AND McKinnie would be message board Pro Bowlers) had we picked ANY other position at that spot. As far as trading down goes, it takes two to tango. Looking at that draft, there wasn't a single "ready to make an impact" guarantee at four. Peppers was arguably the only one in the draft. 498068[/snapback] I don't remember any Bills fans complaining when we drafted Mike Williams. OTOH, when we drafted Willis McGahee, there were plenty of Bills fans on suicide watch.
bills_fan Posted November 8, 2005 Posted November 8, 2005 TD gets a pass from me on that one as well, and I am one of his biggest critics. We needed OL, the choice was McKinnie or MW. I advocated for McKinnie, but was thrilled we picked MW.
ektin Posted November 8, 2005 Posted November 8, 2005 More than half of the league's GM's are idiots. I'm not picking a fight, el, - just that the '02 draft produced some decent players. It's pretty much boom and bust year after year, although there are some late bloomers. And yes, very easy to pick apart a 4-year old draft - but you did bring it up... 498110[/snapback] I guess my whole point on this is that I'm glad we're arguing whether 4 year starter MW was worth it instead of being on the Lions board wondering why they took Harrington:-)
Bill from NYC Posted November 8, 2005 Posted November 8, 2005 I guess my whole point on this is that I'm glad we're arguing whether 4 year starter MW was worth it instead of being on the Lions board wondering why they took Harrington:-) 498152[/snapback] Harrington was the guy who TD was said to be after, no?
dave mcbride Posted November 8, 2005 Posted November 8, 2005 Yes, absolutely. So were Larry Little (a udfa), John Hannah, and some other OGs. The problem is that MW was not drafted as such, he was a RT; another clear reach with a #4. His deal was for 6 years. If he makes the switch and IS AS GOOD at OG as was Larry Little, this means he will have played 62 1/2% (3 1/2 seasons out of 6) of his time with the Bills out of position. Who do you think should get the blame for this? I am NOT trying to be combative. I merely want to know whether or not you think TD has any responsibility at all for the bad way this draft selection went down. 498107[/snapback] i don't disagree with you. the only mitigating circumstance that i'll raise is that williams did get hurt this year. it was a nasty injury, and there is not one player in the nfl who wouldn't have been hurt on the same play. i know you're not making the 'injury prone' charge, but many others have. sometimes, it's just bad luck. it's hard to blame any for that except the fates. as for williams himself, while he may not have played up to his draft slot, he played well the second half of last year and looked very good in the first game this year. my sense is that he was due for a big season. the severe high ankle sprain he suffered will probably be with him all year, so he's not going to bounce back fully before the end of the season. with the bills luck, they'll cut him and he'll go elsewhere and stay healty as well as become dominant.
CircleTheWagons Posted November 8, 2005 Posted November 8, 2005 I'm not trying to defend TD or big Mike but it's real easy to pick the 2002 draft in 2006, in 2002 Mike was a logical pick. 498078[/snapback] I've stopped defending TD with the "at the time" logic - it seemed like a good move or pick "at the time." I'm not the GM and I don't have access to all of the scouting reports and player profiles that TD and his team have. As a fan, I can only judge his decisions with hindsight. After five years of apparently good choices "at the time" the team is still below average. All I've learned from TD is that I would suck as a GM too.
SilverNRed Posted November 9, 2005 Posted November 9, 2005 After five years of apparently good choices "at the time" the team is still below average. 498212[/snapback] Yeah, but the draft pick he took the most crap for (McGahee) has also turned out to be his best.
Ray Posted November 9, 2005 Posted November 9, 2005 I think everyone on this board would be very happy if Mike Williams ended up like a Larry Allen and a dominant LG. I'd take that. His contract goes with him being a top pick. Look at any high pick--they are way overpaid for their value. McKinnie was supposed to be dominant as well. Well, the Vikings fans are saying the same thing about him being a bust. There are plenty of LTs in the NFL better than and making much less money than Robert Gallery a top pick last year. MW has been a good OL. He has not been a top 3 OL but he has been good to very good in the running game. I think guard is actually a great place for him. Having his 360+ lbs in the middle of the line is great to move the big interior DL.
Nanker Posted November 9, 2005 Posted November 9, 2005 TD should have done more to address our O and D-lines in years past, but let's be fair. Calling him dumb for drafting Mike Williams (as Sully does in today's column)is disingenuous. MW and Brian McKinnie were considered the stud can't-miss O-line picks in that draft. The only argument was which one to draft. Turns out neither player reached their potential. No GM has a crystal ball. If a good player decides to be a fat load after he signs his big contract, there isn't anything you can do, other than cut him. And even then you have to give them a few years to prove they're totally worthless. Sorry...I won't pin the MW pick on TD. PTR 497854[/snapback] Of course not. Let's put the "Blame" exactly where it belongs - on the NOSE of FAT Mike. He made himself a bust not a beast. If McNally can't make him a RIGHT Tackle, he's a bust.
BADOLBILZ Posted November 9, 2005 Posted November 9, 2005 TD should have done more to address our O and D-lines in years past, but let's be fair. Calling him dumb for drafting Mike Williams (as Sully does in today's column)is disingenuous. MW and Brian McKinnie were considered the stud can't-miss O-line picks in that draft. The only argument was which one to draft. Turns out neither player reached their potential. No GM has a crystal ball. If a good player decides to be a fat load after he signs his big contract, there isn't anything you can do, other than cut him. And even then you have to give them a few years to prove they're totally worthless. Sorry...I won't pin the MW pick on TD. PTR 497854[/snapback] McKinnie was the pick. The guy flat out dominated on the field. It wasn't like these guys were 1 and 1A when the college football season ended. At some point Donahoe fell in love with Williams and found justification in picking a RT with a bad knee at #4 when a franchise LT was there. Last year, the Bills conveniently left copies of a Minnesota newspaper story about disappointment in McKinnie's play out for the Buffalo media to see, in a strange attempt to gloat about having drafted an injury prone Mike Williams who had just that season showed up to camp weighing over 400 lbs., disappeared from camp, got suspended for a day then proceeded to take 4 dreadful weeks to get into playing shape before putting together his first decent season as a NFL RT. Well, 3/4 season at least. Meanwhile, McKinnie has started 47 straight games(he didn't start his first game). The disappointment in him has been for his not yet reaching the elite status of Pace/Jones/Ogden. Truth of the matter is, the guy has allowed just 1 sack this year and is headed to the Pro Bowl. If he were in the AFC, we are probably talking about whether he is the best LT in the conference right now. McKinnie is getting it done and people won't be discussing whether he should take a paycut or be cut because he makes too much money for his position/performance.
dave mcbride Posted November 9, 2005 Posted November 9, 2005 McKinnie was the pick. The guy flat out dominated on the field. It wasn't like these guys were 1 and 1A when the college football season ended. At some point Donahoe fell in love with Williams and found justification in picking a RT with a bad knee at #4 when a franchise LT was there. Last year, the Bills conveniently left copies of a Minnesota newspaper story about disappointment in McKinnie's play out for the Buffalo media to see, in a strange attempt to gloat about having drafted an injury prone Mike Williams who had just that season showed up to camp weighing over 400 lbs., disappeared from camp, got suspended for a day then proceeded to take 4 dreadful weeks to get into playing shape before putting together his first decent season as a NFL RT. Well, 3/4 season at least. Meanwhile, McKinnie has started 47 straight games(he didn't start his first game). The disappointment in him has been for his not yet reaching the elite status of Pace/Jones/Ogden. Truth of the matter is, the guy has allowed just 1 sack this year and is headed to the Pro Bowl. If he were in the AFC, we are probably talking about whether he is the best LT in the conference right now. McKinnie is getting it done and people won't be discussing whether he should take a paycut or be cut because he makes too much money for his position/performance. 498277[/snapback] interesting. i had wondered how mckinnie was doing this year. i hadn't heard any news from 1 bills drive, however. to be fair, though, you have to admit that williams was playing pretty well from the second half of last season up until his injury, which is not something he could have avoided. to reiterate, any player in the nfl would have been hurt on that play (ie, it's hardly the case that he's out now because he's 'injury prone').
obie_wan Posted November 9, 2005 Posted November 9, 2005 TD should have done more to address our O and D-lines in years past, but let's be fair. Calling him dumb for drafting Mike Williams (as Sully does in today's column)is disingenuous. MW and Brian McKinnie were considered the stud can't-miss O-line picks in that draft. The only argument was which one to draft. Turns out neither player reached their potential. No GM has a crystal ball. If a good player decides to be a fat load after he signs his big contract, there isn't anything you can do, other than cut him. And even then you have to give them a few years to prove they're totally worthless. Sorry...I won't pin the MW pick on TD. PTR 497854[/snapback] absolutely incorrect. For his entire career, Fat Mike was a RT who was too slow to play the more important LT position. You don't spend top 4 money on a one dimensional run blocker. And to Teflon Tom's defense, he didn't plan on drafting Fat Mike. He fully expected to draft Joey Harrington and did not explore other options to trade the pick because he was convinced Joey H would be available. (Joey would have sucked as well, but he would not have made the Bledsoe trade- thus keeping a boatload of top picks since wasted on Drew and JP)
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