I've never understood this anti TD movement

[d_wag]

The Bills make the playoffs before TD leaves.  Wilson loves him, the staduim is full, the money is rolling in.  Most, if not all of his moves were the right ones and done without much questioning.  ONly hindsight has shown that some of them may not be so good.  Secondly, no one has ever offered up a realistic replacement that would be better. 

 

TD stays no matter how loud the fans yell.

495672[/snapback]

 

"all of his moves were the right ones".........that is laughable......for instance, he hired a dud coach over better options and made a horrible free agent choice in bennie anderson after choosing him over more expensive (and higher quality) free agent guards.....

 

"only hindsight has shown that some of them may not be so good"........do a post search.........you'll find plenty of people questioning TD's moves at the time they are made.......turns out those people were OFTEN correct.......

 

"no one has ever offered up a realistic replacement that would be better"........again, use a post search........you'll find numerous candidate lists littered with more viable exes......each could easily exceed the horrible W/L record that TD has posted in his tenure with buffalo......

[Mikie2times]

"all of his moves were the right ones".........that is laughable......for instance, he hired a dud coach over better options and made a horrible free agent choice in bennie anderson after choosing him over more expensive (and higher quality) free agent guards.....

 

"only hindsight has shown that some of them may not be so good"........do a post search.........you'll find plenty of people questioning TD's moves at the time they are made.......turns out those people were OFTEN correct.......

 

"no one has ever offered up a realistic replacement that would be better"........again, use a post search........you'll find numerous candidate lists littered with more viable exes......each could easily exceed the horrible W/L record that TD has posted in his tenure with buffalo......

495890[/snapback]

 

The kool aid is certainly being passed around in this thread.

 

I can understand how people can credit TD for certain things, as he's done many things well, but why can't people understand why we question him? This team is 28th in the league in winning % since he took over, and it certainly doesn't appear like the future looks much brighter. How is being one of the leagues worst teams since 2003, and needing several holes to be filled this off-season reason to praise old whitey? If anything this subject thread should be the other way around.

 

At best TD has been average, and giving him a grade of anything higher then that is either wishful thinking or being a homer.

[BuffOrange]

I know full well that we haven't been to the playoffs since he arrived, but I also remember this team was a complete mess when he took over.

 

This is the same guy who got Willis here, for the price of, well, Priceless Peerless.

 

He also brought us Spikes, Adams, McGee, Evans, and also was able to keep Moulds here even though he would have gotten a lot more money with other teams.

 

He's made a lot of bold moves, some have been great, some average, a few busts.  But he at least he has the nads to make the moves.  He also has the nads to not listen to all of us and make moves we all think should be made.  Like drafting Joey Harrington, or picking up Drew Henson.

 

He screwed up with Greg Williams, but how many other coachs in the NFL didn't measure up to expectations, a few I imagine.

 

I simply believe that many Bills fans live for each Sunday, expecting the Bills to win, and when they don't a finger has to be pointed at someone to some feel better. 

 

I also believe that Jim Kelly and company spoiled us rotten during their "Unbelievable Run" back in the early 90s and many want to see those days return.  What isn't realized is those days were something, very, very special.  And we and maybe no other teams will see that for quite a long time.

495547[/snapback]

 

How many wins have those players gotten us? The SB years may have spoiled us initially, but there aren't many other teams who haven't won a division since 1995.

 

Keeping Moulds over Wiley, Willis over Peerless were fine key moves.

But with a few minor exceptions, you need a coach/QB to win.

Hiring Gregg Williams and trading for Bledsoe were key terrible moves.

The tie-breaker is whether or not the Mularkey/Losman combo pans out. IMO the jury is still out on that duo, but seeing as how we haven't made the playoffs during his 5 year tenure, I don't see why TD deserves the benefit of the doubt.

[Tortured Soul]

How many GM's who haven't made th playoffs for five striaght years are still managing their teams? Now, how many of those teams do you consider committed to winning?

 

The thing about TD that pisses me off the most is not his ignoring the Oline or poor QB decisions. It's that he's spent 3 2nd rounders on DE's and 2 on DT's and we still can't generate a rush with the front four.

[finknottle]

The thing about TD that pisses me off the most is not his ignoring the Oline or poor QB decisions.  It's that he's spent 3 2nd rounders on DE's and 2 on DT's and we still can't generate a rush with the front four.

496008[/snapback]

 

Lol, that fun fact cought me by surprise. Kinda funny in a tragic sort of way...

[jahnyc]

It is about wins, losses and making the playoffs. I don't like or dislike the guy, I just want the team to play well and make the playoffs. That is the measure of sucess from the perspective of a fan. From the perspective of an owner, the analysis is more complex. But I am a fan, and this is what I care about.

 

Making the playoffs is not an unreasonable expectation after five years (or least to make the playoffs once during that period).

[finknottle]

It is about wins, losses and making the playoffs.  I don't like or dislike the guy, I just want the team to play well and make the playoffs.  That is the measure of sucess from the perspective of a fan.  From the perspective of an owner, the analysis is more complex.  But I am a fan, and this is what I care about.

 

Making the playoffs is not an unreasonable expectation after five years (or least to make the playoffs once during that period).

496038[/snapback]

 

I was just crunching some numbers, and under most reasonable assumptions I get that the odds of any team not making it to the playoffs in five years are not good.

 

For example, in a Markov model where you assume (1) non-playoff teams are twice as likely to remain non-playoff teams, and (2) the Bills start off as a non-playoff team, I get the odds of being a 5 time stay-at-home at just 35%.

[Typical TBD Guy]

495547[/snapback]

 

Conversely, I've never completely understood the pro-TD movement. I know that it's based partly on his ability to fill seats at RWS, but haven't WNY football fans always been among the most loyal in the NFL? Maybe behind only a few teams like the Packers, Chiefs, Steelers, and Skins? The "genius" behind TD's regionalized marketing of the franchise outside Buffalo actually belongs to that well-known TBD pariah, John Butler, who initiated this process in the late 90's.

 

And everyone around here seems to love how TD came in here and began managing the cap, but how hard was it really to cut guys like Holecek, Fina, Ostroski, and Brown while electing not to re-sign overrated/oft-injured/old/greedy guys throughout the years like Cowart, Jennings, Winfield, and Pat Williams? Most fans who post here would have been making the exact same decisions had they been Buffalo's GM.

 

Oh, and another puzzle is figuring out why the pro-TD'ers love him for all the quality free agents he's signed (Spikes, Adams, Milloy, etc…). Look at EVERY pro football roster - yes, even the crappy ones like the Cards - and you'll find star free agents on them as well. If you show them the $$$, they will come.

 

One more issue that bugs me regarding the TD love-fest are all the various “Hollywood-esque" wheeling and dealing of which the homeristic pro-TD'ers can't get enough. I won't type here like an idiot and try to convince you that the Price-McGahee result wasn't brilliant (it was), but sometimes for every McGahee deal there is a Bledsoe deal or (so far, and yes I know this is entirely premature) a Losman deal that negates some of the other good work. If TD loves making deals that grab headlines and exude brilliance, why couldn't he do so once in a while for an OT or a DT? Instead of QB's and other offensive skill position players?

 

I'll admit that one perfectly acceptable reason (to me ) for liking TD is that Ralph Wilson is the real man behind the puppet in a lot of the franchise's poor decisions over the past 5 years. But even so, supposing that one can actually PROVE that Ralph has been meddling in TD's GM affairs, you can't blame ALL of this team's overall failures on Ralph alone, can you? Who knows.

 

Oh yeah, and as for understanding the anti-TD movement...among other things, it is based on:

 

A. The team's 28th ranked overall regular season winning percentage since 2001 (.403), ahead of only the Browns, Cardinals, Texans, and Lions.

B. Not making the playoffs since 2001, which only 7 other teams have also failed to do (Bengals, Jags, Texans, Redskins, Saints, Cards, and Lions).

C. An 11-25 record against opponents on the road since 2001.

D. A 5-21 regular season record against playoff teams since 2001.

E. The hiring and firing of Gregg Williams, which set the team back several years.

F. The trade for Drew Bledsoe and the renewal of his large contract, which not only set the Bills back longer but also helped propel the division-rival Pats to a dynasty.

G. Generally poor OL drafting, highlighted by the fact that no offensive lineman has been drafted on the first day since Mike Williams in 2002 (who is, along with possibly Duke Preston, the only TD-drafted lineman currently worth anything to the team).

H. The drafting of no 1st round defensive linemen (compare that to the Pats ), mediocre 2nd round DE's unable to generate any consistent pass rush on their own (Schobel, Denney, Kelsay), truly sub-par 3rd round DT's (Edwards, Anderson), and total schitt beyond the 3rd round.

I. The joint decisions of hiring Mularkey and trading up for JP which, at this early point in TD’s 5th year, don’t look too promising. If the 2005 squad ends up underachieving like they did in 2003 and in 2004, the Mularkey/JP combo could (and should) be the nails in TD’s coffin come this January or no later than next.

[scootermcc33]

T.D. is a good Team President, but a bad General Manager. He has been great at making the game day experience the best possible. He has been awesome at the business end of selling sponsorships and making the stadium look great. The problem is that the product playing the game is terrible. His drafting has a few brightspots, but think of the high picks who have been average at best. 2001 draft was good, then 2002 Mike Williams, Josh Reed, Coy Wire, and Ryan Denney. Ouch!! Yes they made the team, but imagine if any of these picks were impact players. T.D. stumbled into Willis. That was a risky pick, but it was made so T.D. could get into the national headlines, not because it was a "no brainer." T.D. has captured some great free agents, but has not kept his own free agents. T.D. has sacraficed talent letting go Ruben Brown, Ross Tucker, Antoine Winfield, Jonas Jennings, Drew Bledsoe, Pat Williams, and Ted Washington. He butchered moves with Steve Christie and Travis Brown. Greg Williams instead of Fox, or Lewis. OUCH. Then not hiring Charlie Weiss when he had a shot.

 

My feeling is that T.D. should be bumped up to team President and he should hire a General Manager who can find talent and keep talent.

[BuffOrange]

How many GM's who haven't made th playoffs for five striaght years are still managing their teams?

 

I believe Ed Wade who was just fired from the Phillies after 8 years held that title. TD is quietly making a run for it.

 

Conversely, I've never completely understood the pro-TD movement. I know that it's based partly on his ability to fill seats at RWS, but haven't WNY football fans always been among the most loyal in the NFL? Maybe behind only a few teams like the Packers, Chiefs, Steelers, and Skins? The "genius" behind TD's regionalized marketing of the franchise outside Buffalo actually belongs to that well-known TBD pariah, John Butler, who initiated this process in the late 90's.

 

And everyone around here seems to love how TD came in here and began managing the cap, but how hard was it really to cut guys like Holecek, Fina, Ostroski, and Brown while electing not to re-sign overrated/oft-injured/old/greedy guys throughout the years like Cowart, Jennings, Winfield, and Pat Williams? Most fans who post here would have been making the exact same decisions had they been Buffalo's GM.

 

Oh, and another puzzle is figuring out why the pro-TD'ers love him for all the quality free agents he's signed (Spikes, Adams, Milloy, etc…). Look at EVERY pro football roster - yes, even the crappy ones like the Cards - and you'll find star free agents on them as well. If you show them the $$$, they will come.

 

One more issue that bugs me regarding the TD love-fest are all the various “Hollywood-esque" wheeling and dealing of which the homeristic pro-TD'ers can't get enough. I won't type here like an idiot and try to convince you that the Price-McGahee result wasn't brilliant (it was), but sometimes for every McGahee deal there is a Bledsoe deal or (so far, and yes I know this is entirely premature) a Losman deal that negates some of the other good work. If TD loves making deals that grab headlines and exude brilliance, why couldn't he do so once in a while for an OT or a DT? Instead of QB's and other offensive skill position players?

 

I'll admit that one perfectly acceptable reason (to me ) for liking TD is that Ralph Wilson is the real man behind the puppet in a lot of the franchise's poor decisions over the past 5 years. But even so, supposing that one can actually PROVE that Ralph has been meddling in TD's GM affairs, you can't blame ALL of this team's overall failures on Ralph alone, can you? Who knows.

 

Oh yeah, and as for understanding the anti-TD movement...among other things, it is based on:

 

A. The team's 28th ranked overall regular season winning percentage since 2001 (.403), ahead of only the Browns, Cardinals, Texans, and Lions.

B. Not making the playoffs since 2001, which only 7 other teams have also failed to do (Bengals, Jags, Texans, Redskins, Saints, Cards, and Lions).

C. An 11-25 record against opponents on the road since 2001.

D. A 5-21 regular season record against playoff teams since 2001.

E. The hiring and firing of Gregg Williams, which set the team back several years.

F. The trade for Drew Bledsoe and the renewal of his large contract, which not only set the Bills back longer but also helped propel the division-rival Pats to a dynasty.

G. Generally poor OL drafting, highlighted by the fact that no offensive lineman has been drafted on the first day since Mike Williams in 2002 (who is, along with possibly Duke Preston, the only TD-drafted lineman currently worth anything to the team).

H. The drafting of no 1st round defensive linemen (compare that to the Pats ), mediocre 2nd round DE's unable to generate any consistent pass rush on their own (Schobel, Denney, Kelsay), truly sub-par 3rd round DT's (Edwards, Anderson), and total schitt beyond the 3rd round.

I. The joint decisions of hiring Mularkey and trading up for JP which, at this early point in TD’s 5th year, don’t look too promising. If the 2005 squad ends up underachieving like they did in 2003 and in 2004, the Mularkey/JP combo could (and should) be the nails in TD’s coffin come this January or no later than next.

496174[/snapback]

 

Great post.

[Tortured Soul]

T.D. is a good Team President, but a bad General Manager.  He has been great at making the game day experience the best possible.  He has been awesome at the business end of selling sponsorships and making the stadium look great.  The problem is that the product playing the game is terrible.  His drafting has a few brightspots, but think of the high picks who have been average at best.  2001 draft was good, then 2002 Mike Williams, Josh Reed, Coy Wire, and Ryan Denney.  Ouch!!  Yes they made the team, but imagine if any of these picks were impact players.  T.D. stumbled into Willis.  That was a risky pick, but it was made so T.D. could get into the national headlines, not because it was a "no brainer."  T.D. has captured some great free agents, but has not kept his own free agents.  T.D. has sacraficed talent letting go Ruben Brown, Ross Tucker, Antoine Winfield, Jonas Jennings, Drew Bledsoe, Pat Williams, and Ted Washington.  He butchered moves with Steve Christie and Travis Brown.  Greg Williams instead of Fox, or Lewis.  OUCH.  Then not hiring Charlie Weiss when he had a shot. 

 

My feeling is that T.D. should be bumped up to team President and he should hire a General Manager who can find talent and keep talent.

496199[/snapback]

Actually, and this is a little OT, but I've felt that the barrage of ads you experience at the stadium has worsened the experience. It feels very minor league with all the gimmicks. Hasn't anyone else noticed how little they show the out-of-town scores this season compared to previous ones? They've replaced it with an epileptic flash of our logo and the NFL's. Anyone know why they don't want us to know the out-of-town scores all of a sudden?

[Tcali]

I know full well that we haven't been to the playoffs since he arrived, but I also remember this team was a complete mess when he took over.

 

This is the same guy who got Willis here, for the price of, well, Priceless Peerless.

 

He also brought us Spikes, Adams, McGee, Evans, and also was able to keep Moulds here even though he would have gotten a lot more money with other teams.

 

He's made a lot of bold moves, some have been great, some average, a few busts.  But he at least he has the nads to make the moves.  He also has the nads to not listen to all of us and make moves we all think should be made.  Like drafting Joey Harrington, or picking up Drew Henson.

 

He screwed up with Greg Williams, but how many other coachs in the NFL didn't measure up to expectations, a few I imagine.

 

I simply believe that many Bills fans live for each Sunday, expecting the Bills to win, and when they don't a finger has to be pointed at someone to some feel better. 

 

I also believe that Jim Kelly and company spoiled us rotten during their "Unbelievable Run" back in the early 90s and many want to see those days return.  What isn't realized is those days were something, very, very special.  And we and maybe no other teams will see that for quite a long time.

495547[/snapback]

After 5 years--a deteriorating team--with a weak offensive and defensive line---and a decent journeyman and completely unproven virtual rook at QB. A team with very good offensive talent which cant be utilized because of the foundation he failed to build.

[Tcali]

Conversely, I've never completely understood the pro-TD movement. I know that it's based partly on his ability to fill seats at RWS, but haven't WNY football fans always been among the most loyal in the NFL? Maybe behind only a few teams like the Packers, Chiefs, Steelers, and Skins? The "genius" behind TD's regionalized marketing of the franchise outside Buffalo actually belongs to that well-known TBD pariah, John Butler, who initiated this process in the late 90's.

 

And everyone around here seems to love how TD came in here and began managing the cap, but how hard was it really to cut guys like Holecek, Fina, Ostroski, and Brown while electing not to re-sign overrated/oft-injured/old/greedy guys throughout the years like Cowart, Jennings, Winfield, and Pat Williams? Most fans who post here would have been making the exact same decisions had they been Buffalo's GM.

 

Oh, and another puzzle is figuring out why the pro-TD'ers love him for all the quality free agents he's signed (Spikes, Adams, Milloy, etc…). Look at EVERY pro football roster - yes, even the crappy ones like the Cards - and you'll find star free agents on them as well. If you show them the $$$, they will come.

 

One more issue that bugs me regarding the TD love-fest are all the various “Hollywood-esque" wheeling and dealing of which the homeristic pro-TD'ers can't get enough. I won't type here like an idiot and try to convince you that the Price-McGahee result wasn't brilliant (it was), but sometimes for every McGahee deal there is a Bledsoe deal or (so far, and yes I know this is entirely premature) a Losman deal that negates some of the other good work. If TD loves making deals that grab headlines and exude brilliance, why couldn't he do so once in a while for an OT or a DT? Instead of QB's and other offensive skill position players?

 

I'll admit that one perfectly acceptable reason (to me ) for liking TD is that Ralph Wilson is the real man behind the puppet in a lot of the franchise's poor decisions over the past 5 years. But even so, supposing that one can actually PROVE that Ralph has been meddling in TD's GM affairs, you can't blame ALL of this team's overall failures on Ralph alone, can you? Who knows.

 

Oh yeah, and as for understanding the anti-TD movement...among other things, it is based on:

 

A. The team's 28th ranked overall regular season winning percentage since 2001 (.403), ahead of only the Browns, Cardinals, Texans, and Lions.

B. Not making the playoffs since 2001, which only 7 other teams have also failed to do (Bengals, Jags, Texans, Redskins, Saints, Cards, and Lions).

C. An 11-25 record against opponents on the road since 2001.

D. A 5-21 regular season record against playoff teams since 2001.

E. The hiring and firing of Gregg Williams, which set the team back several years.

F. The trade for Drew Bledsoe and the renewal of his large contract, which not only set the Bills back longer but also helped propel the division-rival Pats to a dynasty.

G. Generally poor OL drafting, highlighted by the fact that no offensive lineman has been drafted on the first day since Mike Williams in 2002 (who is, along with possibly Duke Preston, the only TD-drafted lineman currently worth anything to the team).

H. The drafting of no 1st round defensive linemen (compare that to the Pats ), mediocre 2nd round DE's unable to generate any consistent pass rush on their own (Schobel, Denney, Kelsay), truly sub-par 3rd round DT's (Edwards, Anderson), and total schitt beyond the 3rd round.

I. The joint decisions of hiring Mularkey and trading up for JP which, at this early point in TD’s 5th year, don’t look too promising. If the 2005 squad ends up underachieving like they did in 2003 and in 2004, the Mularkey/JP combo could (and should) be the nails in TD’s coffin come this January or no later than next.

496174[/snapback]

I dont really think we can blame Mularkey at all for this mess.He has done a good job--with what he is given to work with.

[Gambler]

I think you all harp on the offensive and defensive lines way too much.  They're okay.  What's the big deal?

495828[/snapback]

 

 

As Teflon Tom would say, "well we have had a 1000 yd rusher 3 of the last 4 years, so the offensive line must be doing something right."

 

Bad logic Tom. A RB who averages 62.5 yds per game over 16 games will gain a 1000 yds. Whoopee! Where does that get you?

 

A cozy seat by the fire watching the playoffs on TV. Way to go Tom. The non-playoff streak continues!

 

What the Bills really need is some clear thinking.

[seq004]

GM's are judged by wins and losses and rightfully so. How much longer did you have in mind? I think maybe were being to hard on him because he's only had 5 years to make the playoffs and really that's not enough.

[Nanker]

I've never understood why people don't agree with me all the time.

It would be such a bee-ooo-tee-full world if they did.

 

Sigh!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[plenzmd1]

I know full well that we haven't been to the playoffs since he arrived, but I also remember this team was a complete mess when he took over.

 

495547[/snapback]

 

Why do people think this team was a complete mess when TD took over?, because he said so. Isn't that friggen convenient.Lets remember the season before, people gave all kinds of sh-- to Wade because he said playoffs were out of reach before they were, kinda the same situation were in now.

 

Also, I do not know about any one else, but I can remember that whole fall thinking our most important free agent was Butler, and that was the general sentiment of the majority of fans. If you are honest when looking back, did you all not think Butler should be re-signed.

 

I am so sick of hearing this team was a mess. Ralph was pissed Butler wanted to go somewhere else, but if we believe the stories back then, he tried dam hard to get Butler to stay. Then he hires TD, and both of them say we gotta blow this up, and Butler sucked and left us this huge mess. I just do not buy it.

 

 

Maybe, just maybe, TD creatd the mess

[obie_wan]

Thank you. There is nothing wrong with this team that another small speedy wideout wouldn't cure.

495886[/snapback]

 

a real small one should be available with our top 5 pick in this year's draft.

[smuvtalker]

Why do people think this team was a complete mess when TD took over?, because he said so. Isn't that friggen convenient.Lets remember the season before, people gave all kinds of sh-- to Wade because he said playoffs were out of reach before they were, kinda the same situation were in now.

 

Also, I do not know about any one else, but I can remember that whole fall thinking our most important free agent was Butler, and that was the general sentiment of the majority of fans. If you are honest when looking back, did you all not think Butler should be re-signed.

 

I am so sick of hearing this team was a mess. Ralph was pissed Butler wanted to go somewhere else, but if we believe the stories back then, he tried dam hard to get Butler to stay. Then he hires TD, and both of them say we gotta blow this up, and Butler sucked and left us this huge mess. I just do not buy it.

Maybe, just maybe, TD creatd the mess

496665[/snapback]

 

Thank you, for saying what myself and surely plenty of others of us have thought at least one point in time.

 

TD is making me LONG for the days of John Butler and Wade Phillips as our head coach. I think back to when Wade was head coach how we lambasted him for what we felt was a terrible football team! (oh yeah, and not wearing a headset)

 

I'd love to have him back right about now. Seems our team played harder, more disciplined ball back then too..

[BuckeyeBill]

As I was telling my brother yesterday... the Bills didn't go to the Superbowls in the early 90s because of Thurman Thomas and Andre Reed. They went there because of Kent Hull and Bruce Smith.

 

TD has not given us a line: Scrubs (Teague, Anderson, Gandy, Vallariel) and a person drafted too highly (M. Williams).

 

And the Defensive Line is nothing special.

 

Football is won in the lines my friend. I was a believer that McNally could do miracles, but was wrong. Krumrie has done a good job but has so little to work with.

 

The Bills need help, but it's not at the skill positions of RB and WR, its found at the lines. Hopefully we address this in the offseason because I am sure we won't have to worry about game-planning for the Superbowl.