Reap what you sow France

[Mickey]

And the fundamentalist Christian right are hardly a majority here, either...but you've already said in this thread that they've taken over the country. 

 

So a 7-9% Islamic minority can't take over a country...but a 5-10% Christian minority can?  Nice, consistent argument there...

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Only 5-10% of the United States is Christian?

 

It would be an appropriate analogy if 95% of France was muslim and within that huge majority, 10% were fundamentalist muslims. Thats not the case. All the muslims in France are only 7% of the whole population and the fundamentalists among that small group are even less.

[Ghost of BiB]

Only 5-10% of the United States is Christian?

 

It would be an appropriate analogy if 95% of France was muslim and within that huge majority, 10% were fundamentalist muslims.  Thats not the case.  All the muslims in France are only 7% of the whole population and the fundamentalists among that small group are even less.

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What you are not addressing is the idea of certain people getting into a government with sufficient influence to affect national policy. It really doesn't take many, especially in a government with a semi-socialist/liberal bent anyway. We go back and forth with whatever party is in charge. The basic direction of France's government does not really vary that much regardless of who is in charge. Once a more anti-American element gets worked into the picture, it very well could make for policy issues on this side of the puddle.

[Mickey]

Nice stretch of logic, counselor.

 

The point that Europeans have been slow to acknowledge the problem in their own back yard has been hammered by many over at least the past 4 years. 

 

The anniversary of van Gogh murder, by a Muslim Dutch national, just happens to coincide with the Parisian riots.  Coincidence of time that also parallels the fundamental issue that Muslim radicalism has found a much more receptive audience in Europe than in the US - which your statistics on immigrantion trends will do nothing to disavow.

 

It is an issue that many have brought up since the first WTC bombing, and have continued to harp on deaf ears - that until Europe recognizes that it has serious internal issues with immigrants being marginalized, that it stands to be the primary loser in the exportation of terror from Mid East in its failure to modernize, along with Europe's historical predisposition to wait for the US to take drastic actions - it shouldn't take such a moral high road, since it help sin fertilizing the growing extremism.

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The point Newbie was making was that France was about to be overrun with muslim fundamentalists and that they "will soon" have Islamic Law imposed upon them. I disagree and made an argument supporting my position. What, on the point being discussed, is your opinion? Do you agree or disagree that France is on the verge of being taken over by fundamentalist muslims who will impose Islamic Law on all of France and that this will happen "soon"?

 

On a side note...."historical predisposition to wait for the US to take drastic actions..." No doubt an observation based on France and Bruschi (We're not worthy!) fighting Hitler without the US from the the summer of '39 until after Pearl Harbor in '41. Does World War II not count?

[Mickey]

What you are not addressing is the idea of certain people getting into a government with sufficient influence to affect national policy. It really doesn't take many, especially in a government with a semi-socialist/liberal bent anyway. We go back and forth with whatever party is in charge. The basic direction of France's government does not really vary that much regardless of who is in charge. Once a more anti-American element gets worked into the picture, it very well could make for policy issues on this side of the puddle.

494526[/snapback]

Newbie's point was that Islamic Law would soon be imposed in France, that this will happen "soon". Really, do you think that is going to happen soon and if so, tell me how a few million muslim fundamentalists are going to take down 52 million non-muslims in one of the oldest democracies in the world?

 

Could a roubst minority, in a democracy, effect policy, sure. Impose islamic law? No, I don't think so.

 

France can't be discussed on this board with anything approaching common sense. The mere mention of the word seems to bring out the loopiest assertions because so many here just hate, hate, hate, hate France. If I came out with a post that the 1% of Republicans who are skinheads are on the verge of imposing a Nazi government in the US because we are too busy fighting in Iraq, I can imagine the response.

[GG]

The point Newbie was making was that France was about to be overrun with muslim fundamentalists and that they "will soon" have Islamic Law imposed upon them.  I disagree and made an argument supporting my position.  What, on the point being discussed, is your opinion?  Do you agree or disagree that France is on the verge of being taken over by fundamentalist muslims who will impose Islamic Law on all of France and that this will happen "soon"?

 

Actually that's your interpretation of what Newbie said. It's not what he wrote, above.

I see nothing in the developing demographic trends in France and rest of Western Europe to doubt that Muslims will continue to amass more political power over the next 15-20 years. Whether that increased political influence manifests itself through more radicalization, is up to Europe to fix.

 

On a side note...."historical predisposition to wait for the US to take drastic actions..."  No doubt an observation based on France and Bruschi (We're not worthy!) (We're not worthy!) fighting Hitler  without the US from the the summer of '39 until after Pearl Harbor in '41.  Does World War II not count?

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Interesting that you bring up WWII by using 1939 as the starting point, when most historians would peg the start of the conflict to Hitler occupying Rhineland in 1936. I wonder which country had the domain over Rhineland at the time, and could have smashed the German army without much effort?

[Mickey]

Actually that's your interpretation of what Newbie said.  It's not what he wrote, above.

I see nothing in the developing demographic trends in France and rest of Western Europe to doubt that Muslims will continue to amass more political power over the next 15-20 years.  Whether that increased political influence manifests itself through more radicalization, is up to Europe to fix.

Interesting that you bring up WWII by using 1939 as the starting point, when most historians would peg the start of the conflict to Hitler occupying Rhineland in 1936.  I wonder which country had the domain over Rhineland at the time, and could have smashed the German army without much effort?

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Actually, that is exactly what he wrote. Here is what he said:

 

"I predict that within 10-20 years Muslim extremists will hold a lot of power in the French government. WAY TO GO, YOU BLEW IT! I smell another revolution."

 

And then he said:

 

"France will soon have a new political power that will fill the secular political void with Islamic law in an attempt to tear down the French Constitution/Rights of Man."

 

Do you agree or disagree that France "will soon" have Islamic Law imposed upon them by a "new political power", ie, "Muslim extremists"?

 

Back to the history, please tell me what drastic action the US took while European democracies did nothing in reaction to Hitler's policies prior to 1939? Care to discuss the reaction in the US to Chamberlain's proclamation that a lasting Peace had been forged after Munich? Look, if you are just one of those people who thing France is the origin of all evil, just tell me and I will stop trying to have a rational discussion with you about France let alone other European powers. If you are one of those France=bad people, just say so.

[Wacka]

What are 52 million non-muslim French men and women going to be doing while a subset of the total muslim population of 4 or 5 million is somehow managing to impose Islamic Law on them?

 

494482[/snapback]

 

Surrender like they always do!

[Taro T]

Surrender like they always do!

494562[/snapback]

 

Hey, that's not fair. The French don't always lose / surrender. They did win the French Revolution when they were fighting the ...

 

Oh, nevermind.

[GG]

Actually, that is exactly what he wrote.  Here is what he said:

 

"I predict that within 10-20 years Muslim extremists will hold a lot of power in the French government. WAY TO GO, YOU BLEW IT! I smell another revolution."

 

And then he said:

 

"France will soon have a new political power that will fill the secular political void with Islamic law in an attempt to tear down the French Constitution/Rights of Man."

 

Do you agree or disagree that France "will soon" have Islamic Law imposed upon them by a "new political power", ie, "Muslim extremists"? 

 

You really have to try harder at convincing me, beacuse I have a difficult time equating "Muslim extremists will hold a lot of power in the French government" with "Islamic Law imposed upon them," especially since Newbie added the "attempt to tear down.." proviso. Sounds like he's describing an intention, not a prediction of an outcome. But hey, I'm not a lawyer, so what do I know about language.

 

I shouldn't even have to bring up the throwaway line about the revolution, since if Muslims would have enough political power to effect change, they wouldn't need a revolution. Unless he was talking about the downtrodden non-Muslims revolting against the powerful Muslims.

 

Of course, your compatriot in this thread believes that the entire US federal government can be brought to heel by a dozen wily men, so I guess anything can happen.

 

Back to the history, please tell me what drastic action the US took while European democracies did nothing in reaction to Hitler's policies prior to 1939?  Care to discuss the reaction in the US to Chamberlain's proclamation that a lasting Peace had been forged after Munich?

 

Oh yeah, Western Europe was very willing to enforce its alliance agreements. I'll give them credit for actually standing up when Poland was attacked. Because heaven knows what the enlightened west would have thought of the unruly easterners if Chirac was in charge.

 

Look, if you are just one of those people who thing France is the origin of all evil, just tell me and I will stop trying to have a rational discussion with you about France let alone other European powers.  If you are one of those France=bad people, just say so.

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Another great position. I take it that calling the French government out for its blatant anti-US policy over the past decade, brands me as the Anti-Gaulic Donahoe. Let's add that their policy, to a large extent, endangers itself and its neighbors a heck of a lot more than it endangers the US.

 

ps - I still like their wine, cheese, & movies.

[Ghost of BiB]

Newbie's point was that Islamic Law would soon be imposed in France, that this will happen "soon".  Really, do you think that is going to happen soon and if so, tell me how a few million muslim fundamentalists are going to take down 52 million non-muslims in one of the oldest democracies in the world?

 

Could a roubst minority, in a democracy, effect policy, sure.  Impose islamic law?  No, I don't think so.

 

France can't be discussed on this board with anything approaching common sense.  The mere mention of the word seems to bring out the loopiest assertions because so many here just hate, hate, hate, hate France.  If I came out with a post that the 1% of Republicans who are skinheads are on the verge of imposing a Nazi government in the US because we are too busy fighting in Iraq, I can imagine the response.

494539[/snapback]

 

You can discuss it with me. I was talking more about my point. A good friend of mine lives in the area where the riots are taking place, she has been giving me updates, and is definitely locking her doors tonight. I do not like France's policies or government, or even their history. We have gotten ourselves into some real messes trying to help them out over the years, and they have done little in return. Anyone remember a place called Viet Nam? But, as I told someone else in conversation a little while ago, when people say France is getting what it deserves, it is the government and their policies. My little friend Elodie is a very sweet, funny and loving young woman who doesn't deserve this crap any more than we would if a skinhead vs panther war broke out in our neighborhood.

[Mickey]

You really have to try harder at convincing me, beacuse I have a difficult time equating "Muslim extremists will hold a lot of power in the French government" with "Islamic Law imposed upon them," especially since Newbie added the "attempt to tear down.." proviso.  Sounds like he's describing an intention, not a prediction of an outcome.  But hey, I'm not a lawyer, so what do I know about language.

 

I shouldn't even have to bring up the throwaway line about the revolution, since if Muslims would have enough political power to effect change, they wouldn't need a revolution.  Unless he was talking about the downtrodden non-Muslims revolting against the powerful Muslims.

 

Of course, your compatriot in this thread believes that the entire US federal government can be brought to heel by a dozen wily men, so I guess anything can happen.

Oh yeah, Western Europe was very willing to enforce its alliance agreements.  I'll give them credit for actually standing up when Poland was attacked.  Because heaven knows what the enlightened west would have thought of the unruly easterners if Chirac was in charge.

Another great position.  I take it that calling the French government out for its blatant anti-US policy over the past decade, brands me as the Anti-Gaulic Donahoe.  Let's add that their policy, to a large extent, endangers itself and its neighbors a heck of a lot more than it endangers the US. 

 

ps - I still like their wine, cheese, & movies.

494602[/snapback]

Do you have a tough time equating "...new political power that will fill the secular political void with Islamic law..." with the imposition of Islamic Law in France? If he is not suggesting that the "new political power", ie, muslim extremists in France, will impose, ie, "fill the...void with Islamic law..." what is he saying? Clearly, I was waaaay off the mark in reading "Islamic Law" to mean "Islamic Law" and "Muslim extremists" to mean "Muslim extremists" not to mention equating the words "will soon" with the words "will soon".

 

How about "...muslim extremists will hold a lot of power in France...", do you agree with that? Are a handful of extremist going to be able to hold a lot of power in a nation of 52 million non-muslims? Because if that is the case, we are in far more peril than France since we have almost 7 million muslims.

[Mickey]

You can discuss it with me. I was talking more about my point. A good friend of mine lives in the area where the riots are taking place, she has been giving me updates, and is definitely locking her doors tonight. I do not like France's policies or government, or even their history. We have gotten ourselves into some real messes trying to help them out over the years, and they have done little in return. Anyone remember a place called Viet Nam? But, as I told someone else in conversation a little while ago, when people say France is getting what it deserves, it is the government and their policies. My little friend Elodie is a very sweet, funny and loving young woman who doesn't deserve this crap any more than we would if a skinhead vs panther war broke out in our neighborhood.

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That certainly seemed to be Newbie's point, that France is getting what it deserves and from a subjective standpoint, it seemed to me that he was happy about that.

[SJ Bills backer]

You have allowed countless Muslims into your country mindlessly with no real plan to assimilate the good ones into your culture and reject the extremists and criminals.  The Muslims there now are hell bent on making France submit to their culture and beliefs. 

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Going back to the original post, I might add that we can make the same analogy in the US, either with Mexican immigrants (thank goodness they're only interested in making min wage by picking our crops and are not intent on political motives), or Cuban immigrants (Fidel - give us your homeless, your mentally insane, etc.).

 

I've been following these stories from France with interest - some interesting debates here on wearing burkas in schools, religious beliefs vs law (same basic type of arguments going on in the US with abortion). It will be illuminating to see how the french deal with this.

[Ghost of BiB]

That certainly seemed to be Newbie's point, that France is getting what it deserves and from a subjective standpoint, it seemed to me that he was happy about that.

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I'm never happy about anyone's misfortune, unless they are my enemy and it is deserved. You and many others know I sometimes have had personal involvement in their...silence. I also have friends all over the world, many in places where their governments are openly hostile and even dangerous to us. They have no more to do with any of it than Joe the streetsweeper. Yes, their impressions of America may often initially be horrible, but I have found through dialogue, that almost anyone can reach understanding, if not agreement as long as they try.

 

The thing is, they have never spent any time getting to know someone who is an American, and vice versa with us to them.

 

In my line, and in my personal view, it very much helps to have a rapport and understanding of the thoughts and views of other cultures. They have the same "media" troubles we have. After all, we taught the rest of the world how to do it. Many of those who don't like us, still emulate our methods.

 

So, for all of those who base their beliefs on a Fox or CNN report, in so far as an understanding of the world - I both suggest and challenge to you to google some websites that give you access to regular people all over the world. There are many, and an easy place to start are some of the common "dating" sites, as crazy as it sounds. There are people there who really do want to learn about life in other places, and are simply looking to meet decent people to talk to, not looking for a green card. Just do me a favor should y'all look, and don't ever lie, nor be an ugly American.

 

Sorry for the sermon, but it is sometimes saddening as to how little we really want to know, and how narrowly we really think. I don't want to sound like a 70's coca cola commercial, there will never be harmony, but if you are willing - make an e-friend in Pakistan, Poland, China, Lebanon, or even France. It's very refreshing, and even more, enlightening.

 

Yeah, I know...Lost is coming on.

[Alaska Darin]

So when I was last in France I must have missed the Muslim Version of the 700 Club, Huh? And the Late Night Infomercials for "Allah Saves" And who would have guessed that that guy Chirac was talking to was the Dean of Students for Bin Lauden University.

 

Gee, the parallels between Fundamentalist Muslims and Fundamentalist Christians are endless, aren't they?     

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Pathetic and overly simplistic. As usual.

[Alaska Darin]

Only 5-10% of the United States is Christian?

 

It would be an appropriate analogy if 95% of France was muslim and within that huge majority, 10% were fundamentalist muslims.  Thats not the case.  All the muslims in France are only 7% of the whole population and the fundamentalists among that small group are even less.

494520[/snapback]

So what percentage of American Christians would you say fall into "radical fundamentalist"? Perhaps therein lies the comparison?

[SilverNRed]

So what percentage of American Christians would you say fall into "radical fundamentalist"?  Perhaps therein lies the comparison? 

494688[/snapback]

The same percentage of Christians rioting and burning down their own country?

[GG]

Do you have a tough time equating "...new political power that will fill the secular political void with Islamic law..." with the imposition of Islamic Law in France?  If he is not suggesting that the "new political power", ie, muslim extremists in France, will impose, ie, "fill the...void with Islamic law..." what is he saying?

 

Well, isn't that a selective use of "..." Aren't we getting to my point that you are taking away a different interpretation of what Newbie wrote? To me, the "political power that will fill the secular political void with Islamic law" is a reference to Islamic extremists within the Muslim community filling their secular political void, and not Muslims filling the French political void. I'm sure the French may have some issues with references to their current political void.

 

Clearly, I was waaaay off the mark in reading "Islamic Law" to mean "Islamic Law" and "Muslim extremists" to mean "Muslim extremists" not to mention equating the words "will soon" with the words "will soon". 

 

There's no need for you to mix up "soon" since Newbie put a specific number of years to his timeframe.

 

How about "...muslim extremists will hold a lot of power in France...", do you agree with that?  Are a handful of extremist going to be able to hold a lot of power in a nation of 52 million non-muslims?  Because if that is the case, we are in far more peril than France since we have almost 7 million muslims.

494648[/snapback]

 

Yes, I agree that if things don't change in Europe in the near term, extremists will hold a lot of power in France. I'm guessing you're not ascribing any relationship between Franch government's actions in the Mid East and their worry of how the French Muslim community would react to such actions.

[Mickey]

So what percentage of American Christians would you say fall into "radical fundamentalist"?  Perhaps therein lies the comparison? 

494688[/snapback]

What he said was "...but a 5-10% Christian minority can..." Hence my question, about only 5-10% of Americans being Christian.

 

Do you think that comparinmg 1% radical christians in a nation that is 95% christian to a nation where there are 1% radical muslims in a nation that is 90% christian is fair(numbers are for the sake of argument)?

 

Lets say you have two rooms and in each are 10 people. In Room A you have 9 christians and 1 fundamentalist christian. All are Americans, all speak english, all were born christians, grew up christian, had christian parents, had christian grandparents, chritsian great grandparents and celebrate Christmas.

 

In Room B, you have 9 chritisans and 1 radical muslim. The muslim was born in another country or his parents were, French is his second language and, other than being a French citizen like the chritstians, he has absolutely nothing in common with the 9 French Christians save for a general dislike of the US (they are french after all).

 

Will the radical muslim have a better chance at convincing French Christians to abandon their history and their culture to adopt Islamic Law in Room B or will the radical Christian in Room A have a better shot at convincing his fellow, less zealous Christians, to oppose partial birth abortion and go to church twice a week instead of just on Sunday?

 

The analogy doesn't fit.

[Mickey]

Well, isn't that a selective use of "..."  Aren't we getting to my point that you are taking away a different interpretation of what Newbie wrote?  To me, the "political power that will fill the secular political void with Islamic law" is a reference to Islamic extremists within the Muslim community filling their secular political void, and not Muslims filling the French political void.  I'm sure the French may have some issues with references to their current political void.

There's no need for you to mix up "soon" since Newbie put a specific number of years to his timeframe.

Yes, I agree that if things don't change in Europe in the near term, extremists will hold a lot of power in France.  I'm guessing you're not ascribing any relationship between Franch government's actions in the Mid East and their worry of how the French Muslim community would react to such actions.

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He used a specific number in one post and in another he used "will soon". I didn't mix up anything, I quoted him so as not to avoid confusion. Yeah, that worked.

 

The Muslim community or the Muslim extremist community? You seem to use them interchangably. Newbie was specific, "muslim extremists will have a lot of power in France." Enough power even to credibly attempt to bring about Islamic Law in France. How will that happen? How many muslim extremists are there in France? Do you know? There aren't many muslims, period, in France, less in fact than are in the US. Certainly not every muslim is an extremist in France or anywhere else. So I will go back to my question, how will, say a million (being generous here) muslim extemists have so much power "soon" that they will be able to mount a credible attempt to bring Islamic Law to France against the oppositon of 52 million or so non-muslim French? Are they Super-Mega Power Ranger Muslims, able to convert Christians in a single bound?

 

C'mon, it was an anti-French rant and a twisted one at that, taking satisfaction in the troubles of another people.