Reap what you sow France

[ASCI]

You have allowed countless Muslims into your country mindlessly with no real plan to assimilate the good ones into your culture and reject the extremists and criminals. The Muslims there now are hell bent on making France submit to their culture and beliefs. I guess you were too busy fighting the US and over looked the real enemy within. I predict that within 10-20 years Muslim extremists will hold a lot of power in the French government. WAY TO GO, YOU BLEW IT! I smell another revolution

[blzrul]

This is more about economic disadvantage than religion.

[ASCI]

Muslim extremism and economic disadvantage go hand in hand. You can not have one with out the other.

[Ghost of BiB]

You know, though, this makes me think of a scenario I'd really have to think hard on an answer to. In the hypothetical.

 

It's well known that there is a huge influx of middle and east asian Muslims into Europe. Many do not harbor any idea of borrowing into western thoughts, culture or ideals. As Debbie says, it's economics.

 

But, over the years, and we'll take France for example, they eventually work their way through the democratic process into a significant power base within the country. All the hoop de doop spewed here ignored, France has been a strategic ally for many years. They are also a sophisticated nuclear power. Although not nuke, this could happen in the Netherlands as well.

 

This could be an interesting dilema for a future US government in terms of both foreign and defense policy, especially if current policies to sidetrack fundamental dominance in the middle east proper gets shoved under the table by any incoming administration.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Muslim extremism and economic disadvantage go hand in hand.  You can not have one with out the other.

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Right on, brother! Now if we could just do something about all these Islamic extremist Mexicans crossing the borders...

 

[Adam]

Right on, brother!  Now if we could just do something about all these Islamic extremist Mexicans crossing the borders... 

 

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Like the one arrested a couple years ago at the McAllen International Airport?

[SilverNRed]

This is more about economic disadvantage than religion.

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Considering the influx of muslim immigrants to Europe with the attitude "you adapt to us", there's probably a pretty good chance this isn't about economics.

 

This week is the one year anniversary of the Van Gogh murder in Holland, BTW.

[ASCI]

 

Considering the influx of muslim immigrants to Europe with the attitude "you adapt to us", there's probably a pretty good chance this isn't about economics.

 

This week is the one year anniversary of the Van Gogh murder in Holland, BTW.

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Exactly, This is the difference between Mexicans and Muslims. Muslims immigrants bring with them a strong ideology (Islamic law) that is not comparable with a US or French style of democracy. The Quran is not a just a religious or spiritual guide it’s a day-to-day living instruction manual with no tolerance for a separation between church and state.

[TPS]

Is there a link? I figured I could find something on Drudge given the initial post, but the article I read this morning didn't say anything about muslims.

 

Boy, I sure am afraid now that I've read the posts here about the insidious invasion of those muslims into western cultures....

[GG]

Is there a link?  I figured I could find something on Drudge given the initial post, but the article I read this morning didn't say anything about muslims.

 

Boy, I sure am afraid now that I've read the posts here about the insidious invasion of those muslims into western cultures....

494369[/snapback]

 

 

You're right, all those North African immigrants are likely Buddhists.

 

 

 

The main point still stands, Europe is reaping the harvest of its history of inter-tribal intolerance. Sure was easier for them to be appalled at America's racial disharmony, while their skeletons were neatly organized in the closet.

[SilverNRed]

Is there a link?  I figured I could find something on Drudge given the initial post, but the article I read this morning didn't say anything about muslims.

 

Boy, I sure am afraid now that I've read the posts here about the insidious invasion of those muslims into western cultures....

494369[/snapback]

Yeah, the link is called GOOGLE.

 

The riots have been going on for 7 nights now and you can't find any information on them on your own?

[TPS]

Yeah, the link is called GOOGLE.

 

The riots have been going on for 7 nights now and you can't find any information on them on your own?

494406[/snapback]

 

as i said, the article I read didn't mention anything about religious background; it mentioned "poor neighborhoods," and Africans frustrated with not finding jobs.

[ASCI]

Is there a link?  I figured I could find something on Drudge given the initial post, but the article I read this morning didn't say anything about muslims.

 

Boy, I sure am afraid now that I've read the posts here about the insidious invasion of those muslims into western cultures....

494369[/snapback]

 

Have you been to France? It’s ripe for a 6th republic week leadership and all. I’m not trying to be an alarmist, just telling it how I see it. France will soon have a new political power that will fill the secular political void with Islamic law in an attempt to tear down the French Constitution/Rights of Man. You decide weather its good or bad for western democracy.

[TPS]

You're right, all those North African immigrants are likely Buddhists.

The main point still stands, Europe is reaping the harvest of its history of inter-tribal intolerance.  Sure was easier for them to be appalled at America's racial disharmony, while their skeletons were neatly organized in the closet.

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I thought the main point made was that it's muslim fanaticals causing the riots, which is part of a larger conspiracy to take over the western world....

 

Seems to me it parallels something like Rodney King and LA riots--as the article I read said it was sparked by two teens being electrocuted while fleeing police.

 

 

riots

[SilverNRed]

I thought the main point made was that it's muslim fanaticals causing the riots, which is part of a larger conspiracy to take over the western world....

 

Seems to me it parallels something like Rodney King and LA riots--as the article I read said it was sparked by two teens being electrocuted while fleeing police.

riots

494416[/snapback]

One Reuters article minimizing the immigration make-up in France doesn't mean it isn't an issue.

 

Amazingly, people who have been paying attention to this for more than, say, 2 or 3 days predicted this long ago. But that was back when the same people rioting this week were only concerned with attacking Jews.

 

Over three years ago....

 

Liberte, Egalite, Judeophobie

Why Le Pen is the least of France's problems.

by Christopher Caldwell

05/06/2002, Volume 007, Issue 33

 

STRASBOURG, FRANCE

The atmosphere of the first round of France's presidential election was captured by candidate Francois Bayrou's visit to Strasbourg on April 9. Bayrou, who represents Valery Giscard d'Estaing's center-right Union of French Democracy (UDF), was scheduled to visit a new mayoral sub-office on Strasbourg's outskirts with the city's elegant, Berkeley-educated UDF mayor, Fabienne Keller. Bayrou got hung up campaigning in another city. While Keller waited for him, she was surrounded by a mob of jeunes des banlieues--or "suburban youth." This is the euphemism the French use for residents of the crime-infested ring of high-rise housing projects (HLMs) that were built on the outskirts of all French cities in the 1960s and '70s.

 

The "youth," all of them beurs, or Muslims of North African descent, were staging an orchestrated protest against Bayrou, who as education minister in the mid-1990s had opposed letting Muslim girls wear the hijab, the Muslim headscarf, to public schools. But Keller was a convenient stand-in. They shouted insults and obscenities at her, one of them threatening (according to an account I was too embarrassed to ask the mayor to confirm specifically when I interviewed her days later) to take a razor to her private parts. When Bayrou arrived, the two went inside for meetings, and the crowd began to pelt the new building with stones, and howl what was really on their minds. First, "Why did you ban the headscarf!" And second, "F-- off! We don't want to live anymore in a country that has Jews in it!"

 

Bayrou emerged from the building while the stones were still flying and told the mob, "Talk about Jews that way today, and you may find people talking about young Muslims the same way tomorrow." At some point during Bayrou's visit, an 11-year-old boy jostled up against him and tried to pick his pocket. Bayrou, heedless that the cameras were running, slapped the kid in the face.

 

But while crime was what brought voters to the polls, France has an even more ominous problem: a wave of attacks and threats against the country's 700,000 Jews that is unprecedented in the last half century of European history. It includes what Rabbi Abraham Cooper of the Simon Wiesenthal Center describes as "the largest onslaught against European synagogues and Jewish schools since Kristallnacht" in 1938. What is surprising and confusing in all of this is that the "new anti-Semitism" in France is a phenomenon of the left. It has practically nothing to do with Le Pen. In fact, its most dangerous practitioners are to be found among the very crowds thronging the streets to protest him.

 

"IN PARIS AS IN GAZA--INTIFADA!"

 

The outbreak began in September 2000, in the days after Palestinians launched the "second intifada" against Israel. The first attacks included firebombings of synagogues in Paris, Villepinte, Creil, Lyons, Ulis (badly damaged), and Trappes (burned to the ground), and other Jewish buildings (high schools, kosher restaurants) throughout France; desecrations of synagogues and cemeteries; widespread stonings of Jews leaving Sabbath worship, death threats, bomb threats, and Nazi and Islamist graffiti of every description: swastikas, "Hitler was right," "F-- Your Mother, Jews" (Nique ta mere les juifs--a slogan so commonplace that it now appears more usually as NTM les juifs), "Death to the Jews," and "In Paris as in Gaza--Intifada!"

 

This week's riots have been in the works for a long time.

[Mickey]

Does anybody have any links to immigration stats that demonstrate the extent to which there has been a large movement of muslims to Europe? What is the muslim population of European nations and how does it compare to ours? How many of them have been arrested or found guilty of being implicated in terrorism as compared to the muslim population at large?

 

It just seems to me that this thread is laced with a lot of assumptions and I think the actual numbers might be helpful. Reading it made me fear that all of Europe was on the verge of becoming overrun by Islamic fundamentalism any day now. Maybe that is true, maybe not. Those kinds of numbers would at least ground our opinions in facts.

 

Addendum:

 

Here are a few links I found quickly which say that the US has an estimated 6.7 million muslims but there are other estimates ranging from as low as 3 to as many as 9 million. Muslims in America 2001 Here is another that says that France has 4.5 million and Britian 1.6 million and further, that there are about 12 million total in Europe but I think that might include Turkey, not sure. Explosive Relationship 2004 Hope that is a good start.

 

Another addendum:

 

Here is a 2002 study of muslims in Europe done by some University Professors in Amsterdam for the Russel Sage Foundation, whoever they are. It includes a population table showing the population of European nations and their muslim populations: Muslims in Europe, State of Research

 

For example, it shows that France has 56 million, 4-5 million of whom are muslims. The Netherlands has almost 16 million people but only 695,000 muslims. Germany has 82 million people, 3 million of which are muslims. All told, Europe has about 450 million people, 13-14 million of whom are muslims. I think that works out to about 3% of the population of Europe being muslim. In France, its closer to 7-9%. It stands to reason that not all of those muslims are militant fundamentalists, far from it. Even if we assumed that they were, they are hardly on the verge of taking over French politics. Influential minority? Maybe but even that is a stretch.

 

These communities, harboring within them some of most dangerous extremists are certainly of major concern but the idea that France is about to be overrun with fundamentlist muslims because they were "too busy" opposing the war in Iraq, ie, "fighting us" seems to be a point motivated more by hatred of France rather than the facts. Besides, even if it were so, would the number of muslims in France really be any different if France had supported the war in Iraq?

[Mickey]

Have you been to France? It’s ripe for a 6th republic week leadership and all. I’m not trying to be an alarmist, just telling it how I see it.  France will soon have a new political power that will fill the secular political void with Islamic law in an attempt to tear down the French Constitution/Rights of Man. You decide weather its good or bad for western democracy.

494411[/snapback]

Do you really think this "will soon" happen? What are 52 million non-muslim French men and women going to be doing while a subset of the total muslim population of 4 or 5 million is somehow managing to impose Islamic Law on them?

We have more muslims here in the US. Are we in danger of experiencing an Islamic fundamentalist take-over? We have already experienced a christian fundamentalist take over as it is, please tell me we I'm not going to be assaulted by Koran toting freaks on the street corner telling me I have to turn my life over to Muhammed.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Does anybody have any links to immigration stats that demonstrate the extent to which there has been a large movement of muslims to Europe?  What is the muslim population of European nations and how does it compare to ours?  How many of them have been arrested or found guilty of being implicated in terrorism as compared to the muslim population at large?

 

It just seems to me that this thread is laced with a lot of assumptions and I think the actual numbers might be helpful.  Reading it made me fear that all of Europe was on the verge of becoming overrun by Islamic fundamentalism any day now.  Maybe that is true, maybe not.  Those kinds of numbers would at least ground our opinions in facts.

 

Addendum:

 

Here are a few links I found quickly which say that the US has an estimated 6.7 million muslims but there are other estimates ranging from as low as 3 to as many as 9 million.  Muslims in America 2001  Here is another that says that France has 4.5 million and Britian 1.6 million and further, that there are about 12 million total in Europe but I think that might include Turkey, not sure.  Explosive Relationship 2004  Hope that is a good start.

 

Another addendum:

 

Here is a 2002 study of muslims in Europe done by some University Professors in Amsterdam for the Russel Sage Foundation, whoever they are.  It includes a population table showing the population of European nations and their muslim populations: Muslims in Europe, State of Research

 

For example, it shows that France has 56 million, 4-5 million of whom are muslims.  The Netherlands has almost 16 million people but only 695,000 muslims.  Germany has 82 million people, 3 million of which are muslims.  All told, Europe has about 450 million people, 13-14 million of whom are muslims.  I think that works out to about 3% of the population of Europe being muslim.  In France, its closer to 7-9%.  It stands to reason that not all of those muslims are militant fundamentalists, far from it.  Even if we assumed that they were, they are hardly on the verge of taking over French politics.  Influential minority?  Maybe but even that is a stretch.

 

These communities, harboring within them some of most dangerous extremists are certainly of major concern but the idea that France is about to be overrun with fundamentlist muslims because they were "too busy" opposing the war in Iraq, ie, "fighting us" seems to be a point motivated more by hatred of France rather than the facts.  Besides, even if it were so, would the number of muslims in France really be any different if France had supported the war in Iraq?

494442[/snapback]

 

And the fundamentalist Christian right are hardly a majority here, either...but you've already said in this thread that they've taken over the country.

 

So a 7-9% Islamic minority can't take over a country...but a 5-10% Christian minority can? Nice, consistent argument there...

[GG]

These communities, harboring within them some of most dangerous extremists are certainly of major concern but the idea that France is about to be overrun with fundamentlist muslims because they were "too busy" opposing the war in Iraq, ie, "fighting us" seems to be a point motivated more by hatred of France rather than the facts.  Besides, even if it were so, would the number of muslims in France really be any different if France had supported the war in Iraq?

494442[/snapback]

 

Nice stretch of logic, counselor.

 

The point that Europeans have been slow to acknowledge the problem in their own back yard has been hammered by many over at least the past 4 years.

 

The anniversary of van Gogh murder, by a Muslim Dutch national, just happens to coincide with the Parisian riots. Coincidence of time that also parallels the fundamental issue that Muslim radicalism has found a much more receptive audience in Europe than in the US - which your statistics on immigrantion trends will do nothing to disavow.

 

It is an issue that many have brought up since the first WTC bombing, and have continued to harp on deaf ears - that until Europe recognizes that it has serious internal issues with immigrants being marginalized, that it stands to be the primary loser in the exportation of terror from Mid East in its failure to modernize, along with Europe's historical predisposition to wait for the US to take drastic actions - it shouldn't take such a moral high road, since it help sin fertilizing the growing extremism.

[RI Bills Fan]

And the fundamentalist Christian right are hardly a majority here, either...but you've already said in this thread that they've taken over the country. 

 

So a 7-9% Islamic minority can't take over a country...but a 5-10% Christian minority can?  Nice, consistent argument there...

494495[/snapback]

 

So when I was last in France I must have missed the Muslim Version of the 700 Club, Huh? And the Late Night Infomercials for "Allah Saves" And who would have guessed that that guy Chirac was talking to was the Dean of Students for Bin Lauden University.

 

Gee, the parallels between Fundamentalist Muslims and Fundamentalist Christians are endless, aren't they?