HOLCOMB

[RuntheDamnBall]

Funny, but you didn't answer his question:  you say that anyone can see he has a ton of talent.  Where did you see it?  I didn't see so much as a momentary flash of anything better than average during the four games,  and that was a huge disappointment.

493423[/snapback]

I thought Losman executed well on the opening drive of just about every game, as did the team. Made things happen when plays broke down. If you don't think the whole team sucked, top-to-bottom, play-calling to execution, in the really tough losses, especially the TB game, you saw a different game than I did. In addition, we've already seen how much better the team has performed when players on the line are healthy (and how poorly we do with a joker like Jerman in there). Losman only had that benefit for one full game (guess which one it was...). Holcomb's also lucky that Shelton finally learned how to catch a ball, which he somehow wasn't able to do even when JP hit him in the numbers on a few crucial occasions those first few games.

 

But none of this could be true because Losman really sucks bar none after his partial four games, and a 32 year old is going to be our QB of the future, the spark we need to go nowhere.

 

I wish you Holcomb dreamers would go join the Kurt Warner fans in wherever he's playing this year.

[finknottle]

I thought Losman executed well on the opening drive of just about every game, as did the team.  Made things happen when plays broke down.  If you don't think the whole team sucked, top-to-bottom, play-calling to execution, in the really tough losses, especially the TB game, you saw a different game than I did.  In addition, we've already seen how much better the team has performed when players on the line are healthy (and how poorly we do with a joker like Jerman in there).  Losman only had that benefit for one full game (guess which one it was...).  Holcomb's also lucky that Shelton finally learned how to catch a ball, which he somehow wasn't able to do even when JP hit him in the numbers on a few crucial occasions those first few games.

 

But none of this could be true because Losman really sucks bar none after his partial four games, and a 32 year old is going to be our QB of the future, the spark we need to go nowhere.

 

I wish you Holcomb dreamers would go join the Kurt Warner fans in wherever he's playing this year.

493470[/snapback]

 

I'm not a Holcomb dreamer. He is adequate. I'm just saying I did not see any flashes from JP that made me say "Wow, this guy is going to be great.' Part of it was the play calling I'm sure, but the bottom line is that I didn't see any remarkable plays that I expect to see on occasion from young quarterbacks, both good and bad.

[Buftex]

if jp pans out youre gonna eat crow for years...........i'm sure you'll change your nickname and come back as someone else

493336[/snapback]

 

Sorry to get you all riled up there Johnny. I would never be afraid to admitt that I am wrong, and would never have to change my "nickname". I hope for all of our sake, as Bills fans, that JP Losman turns out to be great. He may. I don't know how old you are (frankly you remind me of my sister when she was 13, and an mad crush on Shaun Cassidy), but after 35 years of being a Bills fan, it took the Rob Johnson experience to finally make it clear to me, not to pin my hopes any one player. There are plenty of things to like about JP Losman. He seems like a very likable kid, and I like his attitude a lot. Like everyone else, I have high hopes that he will pan out to be the next Bills franchise QB.

 

All that being said, I started to feel a little uneasy about Losman, in the third preseason game. It was clear to me then, that he had a long way to go, to become an adequate starting NFL QB. I was happy when we beat the Texans, but I thought people were getting a little too excited about his performance. As it turned out, he had a passable game againt, possibly, the worst team in the NFL. I think his performance regressed with every performance after that. I know the O-line played bad (JP didn't help them though), and that the play calling was suspect at times. I don't even hold the Bucs loss against JP, because the entire team got its' collective ass kicked for 60 minutes. However, his performances against the Falcons and Saints were completely dreadful. He was missing on simple plays, and could not move the team, at all, after the first drive of each game. I realize the Bills have had that problem as a whole, no matter who is behind center, but with Holcomb, third down conversions have been made, and the Bills have had a healthy time of possession.

 

I like Holcomb, but I am in no way endorsing him as the QB of the future for the Bills. You keep referring to his 9 years experience, to JP's 4 games. However, keep in mind, Holcomb bounced around to a number of different teams, in NFL Europe, and spent a lot of time injured, or being cut, waived and resigned again. When he had a chance to start, it ended in injury, and franchise pressure to start a #1 draft pick (Tim Couch). He started, I think, all of 17 games in 9 years, on very bad teams. If you are counting Holcombs "9 years of experience" against him, shouldn't you count JP's first season as experience for him?

 

I really have nothing against Losman, it just seems that we here, on the board, need to love one guy, and hate the other guy. People exaggerate things to make their point. So Holcomb made a terrible decision on the 4th and 7. It happens. Even to good QB's. How many stupid, bonehead plays have we seen Brett Favre make over the years? I think for what he is, for what he has done, we have a pretty damned good QB in Kelly Holcomb. He doesn't have the physical gifts of JP Losman, and JP may have a much higher level of potential, but right now, Holcomb is a far superior QB to Losman. People who are criticizing his mobility are just way off base.

 

And, even though I feel that way, I think the time is right, to start JP now. I don't know why everyone seems to be assuming he won't be back as the starter, after the bye. If he has anything, or just simply needs to adjust, he should start the last 8 games of the season (all in a row, which seems to be a big issue for you!). If he turns out to be great, I will be as happy as anyone. If it turns out he can't play a lick, so be it, we will be that much closer to our next QB project...if that makes me stupid, or a "flip-flop" or whatever else you want to refer to me as, so be it... I love the Bills as a team, and I just want them to win! Sooner, rather than later...

[CircleTheWagons]

you can't even spell billy joe hobart

493384[/snapback]

In fairness, neither could billy joe

[CircleTheWagons]

Giving Losman the next eight games will put us in a stronger position to know if he's the right QB for next year, but a weaker position to know about Holcomb. I think people would be a lot more open to the idea of Holcomb's potential to be the QB of the future if we hadn't invested all those picks in Losman.

493350[/snapback]

 

Fair enough. I'm confident that the Bills understand what Holcomb brings to the team and his 4 starts have reinforced their opinion. Losman is still too much of an unknown to decide if he can start next year or if we need to bring in another QB in the offseason to compete with Holcomb.

[MDH]

Anyway, Holcomb's arm looked fine to me when he was throwing that nice long TD pass to Moulds.

492987[/snapback]

 

Any arm in the league can make that throw. That's doesn't mean his arm isn't weak. How many 15-yard out patters have you seen the guy throw? That's the most difficult throw and Holcomb simply cannot make it (well, he could try but it would likely be picked off).

 

Arm strength doesn't matter at all as long as you are capable of making all the throws. Holcomb cannot make all the throws, which is why he checks down over and over again. Every QB in the league would have solid numbers if all they did was throw 5 yard patterns over and over again. They wouldn't have winning records though.

[Orton's Arm]

Holcomb cannot make all the throws, which is why he checks down over and over again.

493636[/snapback]

Yeah, I'm sure his checking down has nothing to do with the terrible pass protection we've seen.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

But I do think that with a strong draft/offseason there is the potential for Holcomb and the Bills to do something next year.

493105[/snapback]

 

 

This has GOT to be the most retarded thing I have EVER read on TSW, even counting innumerable Flutopian posts.

[Orton's Arm]

And, even though I feel that way, I think the time is right, to start JP now.

493535[/snapback]

I understand and respect your position, even though my opinion is different. I remember that after JP missed a simple throw to a wide-open Moulds in a game, he admitted to having missed the same throw in practice. Compare JP's practice situation to Carson Palmer's. In the rookie year Palmer spent on the bench, he gradually became completely dominant in practice. In the final 6 - 10 weeks he was looking like a real pro. Yes, he made his share of mistakes in his first few starts, but he eventually learned to carry his good performance in practice over to games.

 

If Losman can't hit that basic throw to Moulds in practice--and hit it consistently--he doesn't belong in the game. If he can't make the throw consistently by the end of this year--or at most by the end of next--the Bills should trade him away.

[Orton's Arm]

This has GOT to be the most retarded thing I have EVER read on TSW, even counting innumerable Flutopian posts.

493650[/snapback]

I take it you haven't been reading your own posts?

[Dan III]

I wish you Holcomb dreamers would go join the Kurt Warner fans in wherever he's playing this year.

493470[/snapback]

The Warner fan is still here, he just found a new guy to worship...

[Johnny Coli]

The Warner fan is still here, he just found a new guy to worship...

493658[/snapback]

Formerly known as "Warner's Thumb".

[MDH]

Yeah, I'm sure his checking down has nothing to do with the terrible pass protection we've seen.

493646[/snapback]

 

Have you seen him make the throw on the out yet this year? Blame the pass protection all you want it's not so bad that he NEVER has the chance to make intermediate throws. Kelly "Check Down" Holcomb is averaging just 4 balls thrown over 10 yards per game. Keep telling yourself it's because he can never get 2-3 seconds to throw the ball on a 15 yard out.

[Orton's Arm]

Have you seen him make the throw on the out yet this year?  Blame the pass protection all you want it's not so bad that he NEVER has the chance to make intermediate throws.  Kelly "Check Down" Holcomb is averaging just 4 balls thrown over 10 yards per game.  Keep telling yourself it's because he can never get 2-3 seconds to throw the ball on a 15 yard out. 

493699[/snapback]

How many 15 yard outs have you seen called where the guy was open, the QB had time to throw the ball, and Holcomb chose to dump it off instead?

[Buftex]

I understand and respect your position, even though my opinion is different. I remember that after JP missed a simple throw to a wide-open Moulds in a game, he admitted to having missed the same throw in practice. Compare JP's practice situation to Carson Palmer's. In the rookie year Palmer spent on the bench, he gradually became completely dominant in practice. In the final 6 - 10 weeks he was looking like a real pro. Yes, he made his share of mistakes in his first few starts, but he eventually learned to carry his good performance in practice over to games.

 

If Losman can't hit that basic throw to Moulds in practice--and hit it consistently--he doesn't belong in the game. If he can't make the throw consistently by the end of this year--or at most by the end of next--the Bills should trade him away.

493653[/snapback]

 

 

Well, the 800 pond gorilla in the room is that Losman is still a first round draft pick, who the Bills paid heavily for. Whether you or I think he may not pan out, they have to see it for themselves, before they cut him loose.

 

What really worries me the most about Losman is not his physical skills. Accuracy was supposed to be one of his strong suits. It is very possible that nerves are interfering with that. It is the mental part that worries me. Pre-draft, many scouts seemed to think he had an "attitude" problem. I think most, myself included, took that to mean that he was kind of cocky and arrogant. When he was handed the starting role, I was pleasently surprised. He said all of the right things, and seemed genuine and honest.

 

As time has worn on though, I think in retrospect, his critics were referring more to his problems with settling down emotionally, while playing. All through training camp, and through the first four weeks of the season, Mike Mularkey, Sam Wyche, TD, Losman himself, and his teammates kept referring to his need to "calm down" and not get too emotional...he plays very nervous, almost skiddish at times. It was a constant theme. Hopefully he outgrows it, but I think it is a pretty serious problem. Maybe being benched for a month will teach him something, or help him put things in perspective. I still contend that benching him in favor of Holcomb was a good move. I don't think it will impede his progress at all, and may even help. If the Bills had won one of their last two games, I would be all for sticking with Holcomb, and see how far we can go. Maybe the Bills stick with Kelly for another two games (depending maybe on if the Colts knock off the Pats on Monday), but I won't be surprised to see Holcomb playing at the Ralph, against the Chiefs.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

I take it you haven't been reading your own posts? 

493656[/snapback]

 

Now I'm hurt, really.

 

Holcomb will NEVER take this team to the SB, no matter how deluded you might be.

[Orton's Arm]

Well, the 800 pond gorilla in the room is that Losman is still a first round draft pick, who the Bills paid heavily for.  Whether you or I think he may not pan out, they have to see it for themselves, before they cut him loose. 

Agreed. However, if they can see for themselves based on Losman's practices that he won't pan out, there's no need to show the rest of the league the same problems. Better to let them believe the sole reason for Losman's continued presence on the bench is how well Holcomb is playing, so that someone will give us a 2nd round pick for him.

 

As time has worn on though, I think in retrospect, his critics were referring more to his problems with settling down emotionally, while playing. 

493740[/snapback]

This rings true. I have the feeling that even if he solves this problem for most games, it will rear its ugly head in important ones.

[MDH]

How many 15 yard outs have you seen called where the guy was open, the QB had time to throw the ball, and Holcomb chose to dump it off instead?

493733[/snapback]

 

 

Considering he's thrown the ball (not just dropped back to throw it, but actually thrown it) 121 times and only 16 have gone over 10 yards in the air (that's a WHOPPING 86.7% of his passes that go for less than 10 yards in the air) I'd say he's most likely had quite a few opportunities.

 

By way of comparison, Tom Brady (who everybody believes dumps it off all the time) has thrown only 65.7% of his passes for less than 10 yards in the air this season. Dumping the ball off as much as Holcomb does is unheard of. But hey, his completion % is high!

 

Anyhow, it's not just the out patterns I'd like to see out of Holcomb. I'd like to see him attempt ANY intermediate pattern when the receiver hasn't achieved a few steps of separation. It's like he doesn't trust his arm to get it in there unless his WR is wide open. The only balls I've seen him throw more than 10 yards in the air when the WR doesn't have a lot of separation are the floating long balls, which don't require much zip, just accuracy.

 

I don't expect you to ever buy into the fact that Holcomb can't make all the throws. I guy that uses a screen name based on a player can't expect to be very objective when it comes to that player.

[Ramius]

Considering he's thrown the ball (not just dropped back to throw it, but actually thrown it)  121 times and only 16 have gone over 10 yards in the air (that's a WHOPPING 86.7% of his passes that go for less than 10 yards in the air) I'd say he's most likely had quite a few opportunities.

 

By way of comparison, Tom Brady (who everybody believes dumps it off all the time) has thrown only 65.7% of his passes for less than 10 yards in the air this season.  Dumping the ball off as much as Holcomb does is unheard of.  But hey, his completion % is high!

 

Anyhow, it's not just the out patterns I'd like to see out of Holcomb.  I'd like to see him attempt ANY intermediate pattern when the receiver hasn't achieved a few steps of separation.  It's like he doesn't trust his arm to get it in there unless his WR is wide open.  The only balls I've seen him throw more than 10 yards in the air when the WR doesn't have a lot of separation are the floating long balls, which don't require much zip, just accuracy.

 

I don't expect you to ever buy into the fact that Holcomb can't make all the throws.  I guy that uses a screen name based on a player can't expect to be very objective when it comes to that player.

493779[/snapback]

 

the scariest thing about Holcomb is that, as you have said, he floats most of his passes. I have yet to see him zip a solid pass anywhere. His passes have a gentle arc, which can be good at time, but other times, i want to see him hit a small seam on a 10 yard crossing for the first down, when the WR is covered. Hes too gun shy because his lack of an arm.

[Orton's Arm]

Considering he's thrown the ball (not just dropped back to throw it, but actually thrown it)  121 times and only 16 have gone over 10 yards in the air (that's a WHOPPING 86.7% of his passes that go for less than 10 yards in the air) I'd say he's most likely had quite a few opportunities.

 

By way of comparison, Tom Brady (who everybody believes dumps it off all the time) has thrown only 65.7% of his passes for less than 10 yards in the air this season.  Dumping the ball off as much as Holcomb does is unheard of.  But hey, his completion % is high!

493779[/snapback]

Considering Holcomb just broke the 200 yard barrier by getting about 260 against New England on the road, he's obviously doing something right.

 

I remember a few years back, I kept hearing that Peyton Manning was the more polished QB, but Ryan Leaf had more "upside" because of his stronger arm. It's easy to place too much emphasis on arm strength.