Mickey Posted September 18, 2004 Posted September 18, 2004 Suicide bombers, on foot and in cars, have been concentrating on police recruiting facilities in Iraq: In February they killed 47 in Baghdad at a recruiting center. A few days later, another 53 killed just south of Baghdad. In June, they killed 35 waiting to join the Iraqi military. On July 28, they killed 68 at a police recruiting center in Baqouba. They killed 20 at a police training facility in Kirkuk earlier this month. Another 47 killed yesterday in Baghdad waiting to sign up with the Police. That is 270 people we couldn't protect even at known, obvious targets like police and army recruiting centers. I am no expert on anti-suicide bomber tactics so I am not suggesting that there is some way to prevent these. Quite the contrary. How long is it before we start seeing these kinds of attacks here in the US? Do we really think that the reason we haven't so far is due to our vigilance rather than a decision by AQ to not use them here....yet? Are we ready for life like this? Amended, 9/14/04 10:09 pm: 12 killed in police van (11 officers and 1 civilian)in Baqouba, attacked by gunmen. Oil pipeline junction was blown up today in Beiji, 155 miles north of Baghdad. Make that 282 dead. Amended 9/18/04: 20 people waiting in line to join the Iraqi Nat. Guard in Kirkuk were killed by a suicide car bomber today. Meanwhile, 2 Americans and 1 Brit were recently kidnapped were shown on a video clip by Al-Jazeera. Captors say they will be killed in 48 hours if female Iraqi prisoners are not released. Make that 302 dead.
BuffaloBorn1960 Posted September 18, 2004 Posted September 18, 2004 Suicide bombers, on foot and in cars, have been concentrating on police recruiting facilities in Iraq: In February they killed 47 in Baghdad at a recruiting center. A few days later, another 53 killed just south of Baghdad. In June, they killed 35 waiting to join the Iraqi military. On July 28, they killed 68 at a police recruiting center in Baqouba. They killed 20 at a police training facility in Kirkuk earlier this month. Another 47 killed yesterday in Baghdad waiting to sign up with the Police. That is 270 people we couldn't protect even at known, obvious targets like police and army recruiting centers. I am no expert on anti-suicide bomber tactics so I am not suggesting that there is some way to prevent these. Quite the contrary. How long is it before we start seeing these kinds of attacks here in the US? Do we really think that the reason we haven't so far is due to our vigilance rather than a decision by AQ to not use them here....yet? Are we ready for life like this? Amended, 9/14/04 10:09 pm: 12 killed in police van (11 officers and 1 civilian)in Baqouba, attacked by gunmen. Oil pipeline junction was blown up today in Beiji, 155 miles north of Baghdad. Make that 282 dead. Amended 9/18/04: 20 people waiting in line to join the Iraqi Nat. Guard in Kirkuk were killed by a suicide car bomber today. Meanwhile, 2 Americans and 1 Brit were recently kidnapped were shown on a video clip by Al-Jazeera. Captors say they will be killed in 48 hours if female Iraqi prisoners are not released. Make that 302 dead. 35843[/snapback] And Yet 1,000's seek jobs as Iraqi Policeman and Join the Military every day.... why do you suppose that is?
Alaska Darin Posted September 18, 2004 Posted September 18, 2004 And Yet 1,000's seek jobs as Iraqi Policeman and Join the Military every day.... why do you suppose that is? 35872[/snapback] Sand tastes like sand?
chicot Posted September 18, 2004 Posted September 18, 2004 And Yet 1,000's seek jobs as Iraqi Policeman and Join the Military every day.... why do you suppose that is? 35872[/snapback] I suppose you're implying that they are doing so out of some great sense of duty. While that may be the case for a few, I think a far likelier reason is massive unemployment and poverty in Iraq.
VABills Posted September 18, 2004 Posted September 18, 2004 I suppose you're implying that they are doing so out of some great sense of duty. While that may be the case for a few, I think a far likelier reason is massive unemployment and poverty in Iraq. 35894[/snapback] Again, each chooses to believe what they want. I believe it is a lot of the non-Sunni's joining up to control the Sunni's who were a minority and so brutally killed, raped and beat them for so long. I have said it in the past, and say it now, I blame every in Iraq equally for Saddam. If the people would have risen up years ago and got rid of him none of this would be needed. yet all they cared about was making it through the day. If they cared about their children, they would have gladly sacrificed their lives to overthrow him years ago.
chicot Posted September 18, 2004 Posted September 18, 2004 Again, each chooses to believe what they want. I believe it is a lot of the non-Sunni's joining up to control the Sunni's who were a minority and so brutally killed, raped and beat them for so long. I have said it in the past, and say it now, I blame every in Iraq equally for Saddam. If the people would have risen up years ago and got rid of him none of this would be needed. yet all they cared about was making it through the day. If they cared about their children, they would have gladly sacrificed their lives to overthrow him years ago. 35898[/snapback] Very easy to talk about sacrificing your life when you don't have to put it into practice. There were numerous attempts to overthrow Saddam - all failed. The hold of the secret police was so tight that any attempt at a coup would have been strangled at birth. This whole Sunni/Shia hostility thing has been overplayed - there have been very few incidents of Sunni/Shia violence.On the contrary, there have been displays of solidarity - while Fallujah (mainly Sunni) was under siege, convoys went from Sadr City (Shia) to deliver food to the Fallujans. Refugees from Fallujah were also taken in by the people of Sadr City. When Najaf was under siege, the favour was returned and food convoys went from Fallujah to Najaf. I don't believe there is a great likelihood of a Sunni/Shia conflict in Iraq. To me, the main danger is of a conflict between the Kurds and the rest of Iraq.
Mickey Posted September 18, 2004 Author Posted September 18, 2004 We can only speculate as to why these people are willing to risk their lives this way. Maybe they are so desperate for a job they will risk anything to work, maybe they are committed to trying to make a new Iraq. I don't know. The motivation is meaningless, the bravery is there either way. My point in posting this information though is, in part, to show that we can't protect the people we need to protect even when we know in advance the targets they are hitting and the tactics they are using. Even with that knowledge, far more than we would usually get, we still can't stop it. That fact has implications that are frightening and far ranging. Some questions that are raised: How many people have to die there before the Iraqi's conclude that as bad as things were under Saddam, they weren't his bad? At some point, aren't the Iraqi's that are with us going to decide that they can't afford to support us? Might not the Iraqi's eventually prefer to submit to an Islamist insurgency sponsored largely by AQ rather than continuing to endure this? If any government that is unable to provide for the security of its people is ultimately billsfanone to extinction, isn't the Iraqi government a waste of time, money and lives? I am hoping that in time things will get just a little bit better and better and better until the Iraqi government can truly be said to be stable and in charge. That doesn't look to be a very realistic goal at the moment. I guess we just have to have faith but that won't be enough forever. There has to be a lot more tangible progress and soon for hope to survive.
UConn James Posted September 18, 2004 Posted September 18, 2004 If any government that is unable to provide for the security of its people is ultimately billsfanone to extinction, isn't the Iraqi government a waste of time, money and lives? 36084[/snapback] Yup. The U.S. is as strong a democracy as it is b/c we fought off oppression on our own. "The harder the conflict, the more glorious the truimph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly. It is dearness only that gives everything its value." -- Thomas Paine FREEDOM® for Iraq is largely via another country's troops, weapons and money. There is no loyalty to what we're installing. Does anyone think that government will last one iota longer than we occupy the place, be it 6 months or 50 years?
DC Tom Posted September 19, 2004 Posted September 19, 2004 FREEDOM® for Iraq is largely via another country's troops, weapons and money. There is no loyalty to what we're installing. Does anyone think that government will last one iota longer than we occupy the place, be it 6 months or 50 years? 36203[/snapback] Even more to the point, how do you force democracy on people? Isn't "You'll be a democracy whether you want to or not" antithetical to the entire principle? Originally, I gave the US-installed Iraqi government a six month life span beyond US occupation. Today, I wouldn't give it as much as a week.
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