All this Pat Williams talk

[GG]

There's no doubt that PW's exit has had a dramatic impact on the run D. But what the discussion is missing is what normally happens on 3rd downs. The biggest issue with this defense is the inability to pressure the QB with the front four. Yeah, it would be nice to hold runners to under 150 yds/game, but even when we held runners to 3 yds in first 2 downs, good teams usually had no problems attacking the soft underbelly of the D, since Gray needed to rush 5-6 men to generate any pressure.

 

I'll go back to the NE example, where Weis called a game plan of a hurry up, and Brady had a field day dinking 5 yard passes that went for long gains. I don't even think his offense broke a sweat as they kept scoring.

 

What really surprised me is that teams still tried to run on the Bills, when it was obvious that a short passing game could destroy this vaunted defense.

 

Earlier in the year, Bills' run D actually held opponents to low rush yards in the first 2 downs in the first half. However, the opposing QBs had no trouble converting 3rd downs of almost any distance.

 

So, I hear your cries about losing Pat. But at the end of the day, it wouldn't have mattered much.

 

 

 

 

... oh to have that 2002 draft back....

[Buffaloed in Pa]

There's no doubt that PW's exit has had a dramatic impact on the run D.  But what the discussion is missing is what normally happens on 3rd downs.  The biggest issue with this defense is the inability to pressure the QB with the front four.  Yeah, it would be nice to hold runners to under 150 yds/game, but even when we held runners to 3 yds in first 2 downs, good teams usually had no problems attacking the soft underbelly of the D, since Gray needed to rush 5-6 men to generate any pressure.

 

I'll go back to the NE example, where Weis called a game plan of a hurry up, and Brady had a field day dinking 5 yard passes that went for long gains.  I don't even think his offense broke a sweat as they kept scoring. 

 

What really surprised me is that teams still tried to run on the Bills, when it was obvious that a short passing game could destroy this vaunted defense. 

 

Earlier in the year, Bills' run D actually held opponents to low rush yards in the first 2 downs in the first half.  However, the opposing QBs had no trouble converting 3rd downs of almost any distance.

Dinking passes ?Hmn where have I heard about another QB doing this?

So, I hear your cries about losing Pat.  But at the end of the day, it wouldn't have mattered much.

... oh to have that 2002 draft back....

487540[/snapback]

[jester43]

i don't think the point with pat is whether we should have kept him- there is no way we should have at the price he commanded- but how we've replaced him. or, more appropriately, how we haven't replaced him. if donohoe knew how to stock a roster, we wouldn't be worrying about it. maybe tim anderson will turn out to be a great defensive tackle, but the bottom line is that after 5 years, we should be able to absorb the loss of pat williams to free agency.

 

that notwithstanding, your points about our 3rd down defense are right on. people have figured out gray's defense is smoke and mirrors, and have figured out how to attack it. so now that changes are necessary, we don't have the personnel to do it.

[Bill from NYC]

There's no doubt that PW's exit has had a dramatic impact on the run D.  But what the discussion is missing is what normally happens on 3rd downs.  The biggest issue with this defense is the inability to pressure the QB with the front four.  Yeah, it would be nice to hold runners to under 150 yds/game, but even when we held runners to 3 yds in first 2 downs, good teams usually had no problems attacking the soft underbelly of the D, since Gray needed to rush 5-6 men to generate any pressure.

 

I'll go back to the NE example, where Weis called a game plan of a hurry up, and Brady had a field day dinking 5 yard passes that went for long gains.  I don't even think his offense broke a sweat as they kept scoring. 

 

What really surprised me is that teams still tried to run on the Bills, when it was obvious that a short passing game could destroy this vaunted defense. 

 

Earlier in the year, Bills' run D actually held opponents to low rush yards in the first 2 downs in the first half.  However, the opposing QBs had no trouble converting 3rd downs of almost any distance.

 

So, I hear your cries about losing Pat.  But at the end of the day, it wouldn't have mattered much.

... oh to have that 2002 draft back....

487540[/snapback]

 

That was simply a great post from start, to a great finish.

[Mark VI]

There's no doubt that PW's exit has had a dramatic impact on the run D.  But what the discussion is missing is what normally happens on 3rd downs.  The biggest issue with this defense is the inability to pressure the QB with the front four.  Yeah, it would be nice to hold runners to under 150 yds/game, but even when we held runners to 3 yds in first 2 downs, good teams usually had no problems attacking the soft underbelly of the D, since Gray needed to rush 5-6 men to generate any pressure.

 

I'll go back to the NE example, where Weis called a game plan of a hurry up, and Brady had a field day dinking 5 yard passes that went for long gains.  I don't even think his offense broke a sweat as they kept scoring. 

 

What really surprised me is that teams still tried to run on the Bills, when it was obvious that a short passing game could destroy this vaunted defense. 

 

Earlier in the year, Bills' run D actually held opponents to low rush yards in the first 2 downs in the first half.  However, the opposing QBs had no trouble converting 3rd downs of almost any distance.

 

So, I hear your cries about losing Pat.  But at the end of the day, it wouldn't have mattered much.

... oh to have that 2002 draft back....

487540[/snapback]

 

Well stated. Pat was almost always on the sidelines on 3rd and 5+ yards. With the Bills giving up an inordinate amount of 3rd and long conversions, Pat waving his pom-poms from the sidelines wasn't going to change the outcome.

 

This is one trick Gray and his failing blitz schemes. Raiders recorded 26 first downs and were 7 of 11 on 3rd down.

 

Eyes wide open.

[Nanker]

Well stated. Pat was almost always on the sidelines on 3rd and 5+ yards. With the Bills giving up an inordinate amount of 3rd and long conversions, Pat waving his pom-poms from the sidelines wasn't going to change the outcome.

 

This is one trick Gray and his failing blitz schemes. Raiders recorded 26 first downs and were 7 of 11 on 3rd down.

 

Eyes wide open.

487662[/snapback]

 

We don't have four good DLinemen. That was one stellar reason Marv ran a 3-4 -- he couldn't find a 4th man. He said it was "easier" to find a 4th good LB than it was a good lineman. I know, now we don't have 4 good LineBackers either.

 

Of course Gray came to town with the plans to the defensive scheme to end all schemes. He's from the old school. He learned from Williams and LeBeau. Now that schools out and he's away from his teachers, he's stopped learning.

 

By the way, doesn't Bill Billycheck runs a 3-4 these days?

[BuffOrange]

I'll go back to the NE example, where Weis called a game plan of a hurry up, and Brady had a field day dinking 5 yard passes that went for long gains.  I don't even think his offense broke a sweat as they kept scoring. 

 

What really surprised me is that teams still tried to run on the Bills, when it was obvious that a short passing game could destroy this vaunted defense. 

487540[/snapback]

 

Which NE game are you referring to? They dinked & dunked us to death in the infamous 2002 game at Rich which was the game Bledsoe officially came down to earth, but our D sucked then (also the first official "GW sucks" moment when he punted on the Pats 32 on 4th & 2 down 17-0).

 

Last year it was more of a case of Brady just making plays in the 1st game and Schobel being helpless against the run on his side in the 2nd game.

 

This year, team's have just figured out our blitzes. The blitz actually welcomes short passes on 3rd downs a lot of times because if you get to the QB, all you need is a guy in position to make a tackle short of the 1st down. We made a living off of this last year and Pittsburgh has always done this. If you don't get to the QB though....you've seen what happens - WR's are able to make catches well beyond the marker.

[Rubes]

There's no doubt that PW's exit has had a dramatic impact on the run D.  But what the discussion is missing is what normally happens on 3rd downs.  The biggest issue with this defense is the inability to pressure the QB with the front four.

487540[/snapback]

 

 

Well, I'd say some of us are getting the big picture...

[Mark VI]

Well, I'd say some of us are getting the big picture...

487804[/snapback]

 

Self-promoter. P.T Barnum would be proud.

 

Don't let this thread get under your skin.

[GG]

Which NE game are you referring to?  They dinked & dunked us to death in the infamous 2002 game at Rich which was the game Bledsoe officially came down to earth, but our D sucked then (also the first official "GW sucks" moment when he punted on the Pats 32 on 4th & 2 down 17-0).

ou've seen what happens - WR's are able to make catches well beyond the marker.

487670[/snapback]

 

You're missing the last game of the 2003 season, where the defense was undressed in a very ugly fashion - NE scored 4 TDs in first six possessions, and then called off the dogs. BTw, the two drives where they didn't score - 1 was a fumble by Brady, the other was a merciful end of a half.

[MartyBall4Buffalo]

By the way, doesn't Bill Billycheck runs a 3-4 these days?

487668[/snapback]

 

 

I believe they switched to a 4-3 cause of lack of lb talent, losing bruschi, ted johnson, and that seymour is better suited to play a 4-3 dt then he is a 3-4 de.

[BuffOrange]

You're missing the last game of the 2003 season, where the defense was undressed in a very ugly fashion - NE scored 4 TDs in first six possessions, and then called off the dogs.  BTw, the two drives where they didn't score - 1 was a fumble by Brady, the other was a merciful end of a half.

487850[/snapback]

 

Oh, I've erased that game from my memory. That was a total "run for the bus" game for us. I think NE had like 3 TD's called back as well (it's great that the refs give us calls when it doesn't matter but never in close games). Wait - maybe I'm thinking of the 2002 game in NE. I dunno, it's a blur.

 

Last year they just whipped our ass with more than just the dink & dunk though - they ran & threw downfield.

[Rubes]

Self-promoter. P.T Barnum would be proud.

487815[/snapback]

 

 

Hey, somebody's got to do it. Go start a thread of your own and we'll see who's self-promoting!

 

[SHOUTBOX MONSTER!]

There's no doubt that PW's exit has had a dramatic impact on the run D.  But what the discussion is missing is what normally happens on 3rd downs.  The biggest issue with this defense is the inability to pressure the QB with the front four.  Yeah, it would be nice to hold runners to under 150 yds/game, but even when we held runners to 3 yds in first 2 downs, good teams usually had no problems attacking the soft underbelly of the D, since Gray needed to rush 5-6 men to generate any pressure.

487540[/snapback]

 

I definitely agree with you here. PW's exit is not the reason for the run game struggles. Hell, just look how well he's doing in Minnesota...

 

RUSH DEF

 

30. Minnesota 142.0 yds/gm

31. Buffalo 159.0 yds/gm

 

Not all that much better than Buffalo.

[GG]

Last year they just whipped our ass with more than just the dink & dunk though - they ran & threw downfield.

487867[/snapback]

 

Yeah, they wanted to test the theory that Schobel emerged as a solid run stopping DE

[Spiderweb]

There's no doubt that PW's exit has had a dramatic impact on the run D.  But what the discussion is missing is what normally happens on 3rd downs.  The biggest issue with this defense is the inability to pressure the QB with the front four.  Yeah, it would be nice to hold runners to under 150 yds/game, but even when we held runners to 3 yds in first 2 downs, good teams usually had no problems attacking the soft underbelly of the D, since Gray needed to rush 5-6 men to generate any pressure.

 

I'll go back to the NE example, where Weis called a game plan of a hurry up, and Brady had a field day dinking 5 yard passes that went for long gains.  I don't even think his offense broke a sweat as they kept scoring. 

 

What really surprised me is that teams still tried to run on the Bills, when it was obvious that a short passing game could destroy this vaunted defense. 

 

Earlier in the year, Bills' run D actually held opponents to low rush yards in the first 2 downs in the first half.  However, the opposing QBs had no trouble converting 3rd downs of almost any distance.

 

So, I hear your cries about losing Pat.  But at the end of the day, it wouldn't have mattered much.

... oh to have that 2002 draft back....

487540[/snapback]

 

 

well said....

[AKC]

There's no doubt that PW's exit has had a dramatic impact on the run D.  But what the discussion is missing is what normally happens on 3rd downs.  The biggest issue with this defense is the inability to pressure the QB with the front four.  Yeah, it would be nice to hold runners to under 150 yds/game, but even when we held runners to 3 yds in first 2 downs, good teams usually had no problems attacking the soft underbelly of the D, since Gray needed to rush 5-6 men to generate any pressure.

 

I'll go back to the NE example, where Weis called a game plan of a hurry up, and Brady had a field day dinking 5 yard passes that went for long gains.  I don't even think his offense broke a sweat as they kept scoring. 

 

What really surprised me is that teams still tried to run on the Bills, when it was obvious that a short passing game could destroy this vaunted defense. 

 

 

487540[/snapback]

 

You could make that argument only if football were a complete vacuum and all third downs were exactly the same circumstances. The unfortunate reality is that they are not. Dynamics like what happens on the first and second downs dramatically impact what happens on third down. Here's some facts you should consider:

 

Last year we were the 4th stingiest team in the league simply allowing teams to rush for first downs against us. In fact, throughout 2004 only 33% of first downs against us came running the ball. This year we give up over half of first downs against us on the ground. What the stats support is what we all saw during most of our games last year- we were leaving teams in 3rd and 5, 3rd and 6 situations with regularity, and in many cases on their first series. This allowed us to bring in the specialized pass packages to play out on 3rd downs, and consequently end up in the top half of the league in third down defense. This year we're at the bottom.

 

One measure of the quality of your rush defense is rushing TDs allowed. This season we've already given up 11, which is almost double what we gave up ALL SEASON in 2004 when we were the 2nd best league-wide. This is probably the single greatest statistical indication of the quality of your interior D Lineman.

 

Last year we were holding premier NFL running backs to 30 and 40 yard games, this year we're giving journeymen the opportunity to establish career records.

 

Here's the simple truth:

In 2004 our quality starting DLine was able to put opposing teams into long third down situations and end up getting our defense off the field- this year's defense regularly sees 2nd and 2 and 3rd and 1, phenomenon almost unknown to our 2004 D! And each 2nd and 2 or 3rd and 1 is likely to end up in a new set of downs, the cumulaitve effect being what we've seen all year inthe 3rd and especially 4th quarters- a debilitated DLine who can no longer stop even #2 and 3 backs.

 

The best managers in football have stacked the DT position on their own rosters. We have flotsam and jetsam after our #1. Pat Williams wasn't the only game in town- but Ron Edwards and Tim Anderson never belonged on the START square. Donahoe simply blew this season away by refusing to bring in someone who could have at the very minimum given us a second starting quality DT at a time when ALL our better opponents have 3 and 4. Instead he appears to have assembled one of the thinnest rosters in the league with limited depth across the board except maybe at RB and WR.

 

What we have assembled is a Fantasy Football team, not a team built upon the contemporary principals of the best managers in the league. Unless of course that league is FF.

[ganesh]

Donahoe simply blew this season away by refusing to bring in someone who could have at the very minimum given us a second starting quality DT at a time when ALL our better opponents have 3 and 4.

487971[/snapback]

 

And messed up our cap situation for the next few years....The guy was asking

for 5M a year...Considering that his time in the league will be short due to his

age, there was no way we were going to give him 6-8M in signing bonus and

the 15M in salary...

 

There is a salary cap and teams lose players at all positions...but they adjust

either by replacing with the right personnel or changing their game plan to

adapt to the new personnel available...Sadly we haven't done either...that is

what TD needs to address...

 

If TD would hyave gone out and got an emerging DT for 25 over 5 years

at the same 5M a year....the chance of that person finishing his contract

and earning that money is higher than PW finishing his 3 or 4 yr contract

at the same level of play (that merits 5M a year).

[AKC]

If TD would hyave gone out and got an emerging DT for 25 over 5 years

at the same 5M a year....the chance of that person finishing his contract

and earning that money is higher than PW finishing his 3 or 4 yr contract

at the same level of play (that merits 5M a year).

487984[/snapback]

 

 

I've been stewing about this too though for a different reason; regarding the guys you can get to help for reasonable salaries- for instance look at TE, a position where other teams brought in help like Anthony Becht on the cheap to give them a legitimate 2nd blocker for their 2TE packages. We've used the 2TE package all year long with the DREADFUL Ryan Nuefeld playing in it- when you KNOW your philosophy is going to call for a lot of 2TE sets, DO SOMETHING ON THE CHEAP to guarantee you have the bodies to plug into it.

[Guest BackInDaDay]

this year's defense regularly sees 2nd and 2 and 3rd and 1, phenomenon almost unknown to our 2004 D! And each 2nd and 2 or 3rd and 1 is likely to end up in a new set of downs, the cumulaitve effect being what we've seen all year inthe 3rd and especially 4th quarters- a debilitated DLine who can no longer stop even #2 and 3 backs.

487971[/snapback]

 

Thank you.

 

The best managers in football have stacked the DT position on their own rosters. We have flotsam and jetsam after our #1.

487971[/snapback]

 

Flotsam was a UDFA from Texas Tech, I believe. Jetsom, well, I don't know where he came from...