bills_fan Posted October 26, 2005 Posted October 26, 2005 I was a bit bored and was able to get tapes of 3 games from the 04 season and contrast them with some games in the 05 season, to try and get a handle on what we did differently in our run D. This is what I found out... I contrasted these games from 04 (the Seattle game where we held Alexander to 39 yds, the Jets game in Buffalo, held Martin to 67 yards, and the Baltimore game, Lewis (not jamal) hit us for 89 yards on 21 carries) with the Atlanta game (1st half) and the TB game. I picked these games from 05 because I wanted to see how we were doing with TKO. The Bills scheme in 04 was predicated upon forcing the RB to run at Phat Pat, and pick a lane to either side of him. Essentially the DEs rushed upfield and established containment outside. Sam penetrated the backfield, trying to force the RB to cut towards PW. PW, on damn near every play was doubled, but he held his ground. That created three gaps for the RB to rush through...the spot Sam vacated, and on either side of PW. TKO, Fletcher and Milloy generally filled the gaps nicely, making the tackle and not allowing the RB any room to move. Essentially our LBs & Milloy were the 3rd line of defense against the run. First the DEs did a very nice job of holding outside containment and not letting the RB bust it outside. Then Sam would shoot a gap and guess trying to make the tackle. This is the essence of Sam's game, penetration, and he is very good at it. This strategy worked well as if Sam guessed wrong, PW was able to hold his ground and force the RB to make a split second decision and try a gap, where a LB or Milloy was waiting. It was quite an effective scheme. Now, contrast that with the 05 Bills. Basically, everything is the same except that Edwards or Anderson are not commanding a double team. Sam has generally been beating the double team he is commanding, but RE or TA is being blocked 1 on 1. That leaves the opposing C, usually, to take on a LB in the gap. Cadillac and Dunn/Duckett simply followed the C, who sealed off the gap leading to big gains. Our LBs, then tried to compensate by not filling the gap but heading up field, guessing where the RB is, trying to make a play. This is the infamous "losing gap responsibilities" that Gray spoke of. The problem is that the gap is larger due to RE or TA being moved off the ball (didn't happen too often) but neither were ever doubled, which happened all the time with PW last year. Also RE is more of a penetrater and not a stay-at-home lane clogger. The conclusion I drew from this is that Pat Williams was the keystone in which our run D was built on. The necessity for him to be doubled on 1st and 2nd down, allowed us to do more as far as filling the gaps to stop the run. Essentially the LBs had either a clear lane or more time (due to the frequent chip blocks on PW that I saw) to fill the gap before the blocking and RB got to the hole. Essentially, even tho PW played on only 60% of the defensive plays, his role was huge. He occupied two blockers enabling our LB/Milloy or Sam to make the play almost unimpeded. Then he came off the field on 2nd and long or 3rd down and Edwards, more of a penetrater, rushed the passer. For us to get back to being successful stopping the run, we NEED a guy to clog the lane and maintain his position. It also won't hurt if he draws double teams. Unfortunately, I don't know too many of those type of guys in the league. We need a vet, probably signed as a FA because he needs a rep to draw double teams, who can clog the lane. Is Big Ted available?
John from Riverside Posted October 26, 2005 Posted October 26, 2005 I agree with your review..... It pretty much decides our #1 pick next year in my opinion.......
The Poojer Posted October 26, 2005 Posted October 26, 2005 it is pretty amazing that 1 guy(not discounting TKO) can make that big of a difference! I was a bit bored and was able to get tapes of 3 games from the 04 season and contrast them with some games in the 05 season, to try and get a handle on what we did differently in our run D. This is what I found out... I contrasted these games from 04 (the Seattle game where we held Alexander to 39 yds, the Jets game in Buffalo, held Martin to 67 yards, and the Baltimore game, Lewis (not jamal) hit us for 89 yards on 21 carries) with the Atlanta game (1st half) and the TB game. I picked these games from 05 because I wanted to see how we were doing with TKO. The Bills scheme in 04 was predicated upon forcing the RB to run at Phat Pat, and pick a lane to either side of him. Essentially the DEs rushed upfield and established containment outside. Sam penetrated the backfield, trying to force the RB to cut towards PW. PW, on damn near every play was doubled, but he held his ground. That created three gaps for the RB to rush through...the spot Sam vacated, and on either side of PW. TKO, Fletcher and Milloy generally filled the gaps nicely, making the tackle and not allowing the RB any room to move. Essentially our LBs & Milloy were the 3rd line of defense against the run. First the DEs did a very nice job of holding outside containment and not letting the RB bust it outside. Then Sam would shoot a gap and guess trying to make the tackle. This is the essence of Sam's game, penetration, and he is very good at it. This strategy worked well as if Sam guessed wrong, PW was able to hold his ground and force the RB to make a split second decision and try a gap, where a LB or Milloy was waiting. It was quite an effective scheme. Now, contrast that with the 05 Bills. Basically, everything is the same except that Edwards or Anderson are not commanding a double team. Sam has generally been beating the double team he is commanding, but RE or TA is being blocked 1 on 1. That leaves the opposing C, usually, to take on a LB in the gap. Cadillac and Dunn/Duckett simply followed the C, who sealed off the gap leading to big gains. Our LBs, then tried to compensate by not filling the gap but heading up field, guessing where the RB is, trying to make a play. This is the infamous "losing gap responsibilities" that Gray spoke of. The problem is that the gap is larger due to RE or TA being moved off the ball (didn't happen too often) but neither were ever doubled, which happened all the time with PW last year. Also RE is more of a penetrater and not a stay-at-home lane clogger. The conclusion I drew from this is that Pat Williams was the keystone in which our run D was built on. The necessity for him to be doubled on 1st and 2nd down, allowed us to do more as far as filling the gaps to stop the run. Essentially the LBs had either a clear lane or more time (due to the frequent chip blocks on PW that I saw) to fill the gap before the blocking and RB got to the hole. Essentially, even tho PW played on only 60% of the defensive plays, his role was huge. He occupied two blockers enabling our LB/Milloy or Sam to make the play almost unimpeded. Then he came off the field on 2nd and long or 3rd down and Edwards, more of a penetrater, rushed the passer. For us to get back to being successful stopping the run, we NEED a guy to clog the lane and maintain his position. It also won't hurt if he draws double teams. Unfortunately, I don't know too many of those type of guys in the league. We need a vet, probably signed as a FA because he needs a rep to draw double teams, who can clog the lane. Is Big Ted available? 487095[/snapback]
bills_fan Posted October 26, 2005 Author Posted October 26, 2005 It pretty much decides our #1 pick next year in my opinion....... Or a very expensive FA signing. Its just a bit depressing that we go into this offseason with our biggest priorities being run stuffing DT and LT, when last year our biggest losses were run stuffing DT and LT. it is pretty amazing that 1 guy(not discounting TKO) can make that big of a difference! I know. But Sam and Phat Pat complemented each other's styles very well. Edwards, plays very similar to Sam (tho not as good obviously) and isn't suited to Phat Pat's role. I'd like to get a hold of the Pitt game tape to break it down as to why they were able to run against us even with PW. PW was a monster in that game. My hypothesis is that one of 2 things happened....1 - PW freelanced and tried to penetrate and threw the scheme off (unlikely) or 2- The LBs and Milloy were a step slow filling the hole after a long year against fresher Pitts back-ups (more likely).
boomerjamhead Posted October 26, 2005 Posted October 26, 2005 Dr. Z said it well today: Buffalo Bills (3-4)Want to get your running game healthy? Visit Buffalo. Four backs: Cadillac Williams, Deuce McAllister, Curtis Martin and LaMont Jordan -- were comfortably over 100 yards against the Bills, and two more, Warrick Dunn and Ronnie Brown, were close at 97. Last year some pretty good runners washed up on the Buffalo shore -- Shaun Alexander, 39 yards; Steven Jackson and Marshall Faulk, 29 and 6, respectively; Curtis Martin, 67; Fred Taylor, 71; and so forth.
GG Posted October 26, 2005 Posted October 26, 2005 Interesting analysis. But how would PW's presence explain that Minny is just ahead of us in run D, while playing against similar opponents, and they gave up nearly 300 rushing yds to Atlanta? There has to be more to it than PW, although he's a big part of it.
bills_fan Posted October 26, 2005 Author Posted October 26, 2005 But how would PW's presence explain that Minny is just ahead of us in run D, while playing against similar opponents, and they gave up nearly 300 rushing yds to Atlanta? There has to be more to it than PW, although he's a big part of it. GG, I don't know what scheme Minny is playing. I haven't seen them all year. I just know that PW was the right player for our system and the way we played last year. Running the same system with the only difference being RE (thats why I only looked at TB and Atl, wanted to see us with TKO), yielded vastly different results. The essential reason was the xtra blocker PW tied up while still maintaining his ground.
Matt in KC Posted October 26, 2005 Posted October 26, 2005 GG, I don't know what scheme Minny is playing. I haven't seen them all year. I just know that PW was the right player for our system and the way we played last year. Running the same system with the only difference being RE (thats why I only looked at TB and Atl, wanted to see us with TKO), yielded vastly different results. The essential reason was the xtra blocker PW tied up while still maintaining his ground. 487147[/snapback] I generally agree with your summary (great post, by the way!), but it looked to me like a huge difference in the TB game was that Fletcher went out in the second quarter, and was replaced by Crowell, who was dinged up and wasn't even active week 1 vs. Houston. It looked to me like we suffered from a lack of "gap discipline" (and heat exhaustion) in that game, with Crowell hitting his gap hard, but forgetting to look for the runner (running right past the runner a couple times). I do agree that Edwards was also abused in that game, most getting twisted perpendicular to the line of scrimmage by a single blocker.
R. Rich Posted October 26, 2005 Posted October 26, 2005 Interesting analysis. But how would PW's presence explain that Minny is just ahead of us in run D, while playing against similar opponents, and they gave up nearly 300 rushing yds to Atlanta? There has to be more to it than PW, although he's a big part of it. 487140[/snapback] Minnesota has a HUGE problem @ LB, where Napoleon Harris, acquired in the Randy Moss trade from the Raiders, was a washout. Also, Kevin Williams, their All-Pro tackle, is having a rough year, as is high priced free agent acquisition Fred Smoot. Pat Williams is one of the few bright spots for their defense so far this year.
Guest BackInDaDay Posted October 26, 2005 Posted October 26, 2005 Very good post. Makes you wonder how you let your 'anchor' walk without a comparable replacement. As far as the Steeler game goes, I recall them running quite a few traps and counters that caught our guys coming in. On one play in particular Posey ran right past the ball carrier on his way through the line after Pat was trapped.
plenzmd1 Posted October 26, 2005 Posted October 26, 2005 GG, I don't know what scheme Minny is playing. I haven't seen them all year. I just know that PW was the right player for our system and the way we played last year. Running the same system with the only difference being RE (thats why I only looked at TB and Atl, wanted to see us with TKO), yielded vastly different results. The essential reason was the xtra blocker PW tied up while still maintaining his ground. 487147[/snapback] THX for this, truly enjoyed reading it.
ganesh Posted October 26, 2005 Posted October 26, 2005 it is pretty amazing that 1 guy(not discounting TKO) can make that big of a difference! 487108[/snapback] What that means is that our coaching staff has not adjusted to the existing personnel....If Anderson's play or position on the field (single-teamed or double-teamed) is different from what we had with Pat Williams, then it is completely on the shoulders of the Defensive staff to adjust their game plan to play to the strength of the existing player.... That has been the biggest problem with this coaching staff.... Belichek has the same problem....His LBs are injured...His DE seymour is injured...what does he do...He puts in backups....but then what does he do.....He plugs them in and plays to their strengths..... Don't try to fit the system on to the players....You need to build a system around your players.....This was the downfall of the 46 that GW/JG ran the 1st two years together...and that is what Grey is doing again...... This is the same thing the steelers did last year....They lost their starting OT and OG....They plugged in backups....They were #1 rushing team in football....Same thing on the defense....They lose Kendrall Bell at the MLB... No problems....Plug in Larry Foote....they lose their starting NT...no problems... plug in a backup in Chris Hope....boom they are still the #1 against the run in the league.....Larry Foot is no better than a Crowell....both are backups.... Bottom line in todays parity driven NFL is you cannot have stars at all positions...Coaching staff has to adapt their system to the players they have....Sadly, that has been the BIGGEST PROBLEM with this team...
GG Posted October 26, 2005 Posted October 26, 2005 GG, I don't know what scheme Minny is playing. I haven't seen them all year. I just know that PW was the right player for our system and the way we played last year. Running the same system with the only difference being RE (thats why I only looked at TB and Atl, wanted to see us with TKO), yielded vastly different results. The essential reason was the xtra blocker PW tied up while still maintaining his ground. 487147[/snapback] I think everyone is bringing up valid arguments. IMHO, players know the impact of losing PW, and many try to overcompensate by guessing the lanes, leaving gaping holes. ps- I didn't think that it could get worse after Edwards went down, but after seeing Anderson in there, I have to reconsider. Not only is he easily blown off the ball by the C, but he invariable always ends up on the ground, effectively blocking our guys trying to get to the gap
stuckincincy Posted October 26, 2005 Posted October 26, 2005 One can debate that the loss of Spikes didn't make a difference in run defense. But he covered so much area, made life easier for others, and essentially took a short reciever away, that I feel it was a critical loss. Cincy has drafted 5 LB's in Rounds 1, 2, and 3 to try to fill the void since Spikes moved on after the '02 season. That's a bunch...
Bill from NYC Posted October 26, 2005 Posted October 26, 2005 Great post. I am asking for a little help with the following....... At one point last season, didn't Adams throw some sort of fit when he was asked to occupy blockers in this manner? Didn't he even refuse to leave the field at one point? Wasn't there some sort of dispute during a game? I believe everything in the original post. How can we fix it? Obviously by inserting Adams into the PW role. He is just as huge. Anderson, even with his inexperience, seems to be more agile than Sam, or so one would think. Might it not make sense for him to be the OT who penetrates while SA, at 360, clogs up the middle? Gray is the expert, not me, but I have very serious doubts about him. Doubts aside, I hope that he steps up, makes changes and runs the defense. Dictating policy on defense is the job of the DC, NOT any particular player. Please, someone refresh my shaky memory about any incident involving Adams.
Rubes Posted October 26, 2005 Posted October 26, 2005 I think you've reached the essence as to how our four guys could beat their five guys. Or at least match them.
Coach Tuesday Posted October 26, 2005 Posted October 26, 2005 Is it possible that our coaching staff/front office assumed that Pro Bowl-caliber Milloy and Fletcher would be able to step up this year and make up for PW's loss by fighting harder to get off blocks, and that they'd be successful doing that? Is it also possible that both Milloy and Fletcher aged like Eddie Robinson over the offseason? Fletcher seems to have lost a step, and Milloy is consistently (and embarassingly) getting run over while trying to make tackles.
34-78-83 Posted October 26, 2005 Posted October 26, 2005 Great post. I am asking for a little help with the following....... At one point last season, didn't Adams throw some sort of fit when he was asked to occupy blockers in this manner? Didn't he even refuse to leave the field at one point? Wasn't there some sort of dispute during a game? Please, someone refresh my shaky memory about any incident involving Adams. 487180[/snapback] You are correct Bill, although none of us will ever know the full details. If I recall correctly it was in the Cardinals game last season where it became obvious. Sam was penetrating the LOS a lot and leaving gaps behind him. Gray was obviously angry about this, and they had it out. It seemed to me and a few others I spoke with at that point that this was the moment where PW became the "stop-gap" plugger and Sam was allowed to freelance. Prior to that point I believe the scheme was more to have both DT's stay home or have PW do the penetrating.
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