Hardy Pyle Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Just wondering what the difference is because they both seem to be mediocre armed QB's who are good at getting the ball out quickly and distributing the ball. So have we gone full circle from AVP v1.0 to AVP v2.0? If this is satisfactory, as most have expressed, why didn't we just stick with AVP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Just wondering what the difference is because they both seem to be mediocre armed QB's who are good at getting the ball out quickly and distributing the ball. So have we gone full circle from AVP v1.0 to AVP v2.0? If this is satisfactory, as most have expressed, why didn't we just stick with AVP? 479125[/snapback] When Alex was our starter, he was about to retire as I recall. When he was released, I don't think that he got many (if any) offers, although obviously I don't know this to be sure. Believe me, if KH were to be cut today, he would have a job tomorrow. As far as arm strength, it is not fundamental to winning. Ask Joe Montana. Hey, if all a qb needed was a great arm, Bledsoe would be in the superbowl every season, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Just wondering what the difference is because they both seem to be mediocre armed QB's who are good at getting the ball out quickly and distributing the ball. So have we gone full circle from AVP v1.0 to AVP v2.0? If this is satisfactory, as most have expressed, why didn't we just stick with AVP? 479125[/snapback] Didn't he hurt his wrist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duey Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 About 75 lbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRH Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 One very exaggerated Southern drawl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Maybe there is not a big difference (except one has a perfect record as starter so far) which only illustratres further how poorly JP played... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardy Pyle Posted October 18, 2005 Author Share Posted October 18, 2005 How poorly JP played? Maybe how poorly the offense played. I didn't see Willis and the o-line play very well in the first 4 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDH Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 As far as arm strength, it is not fundamental to winning. 479143[/snapback] Let's see what happens come Nov and Dec and the wind is blowing in off the lake. Arm strength, in general, isn't that important in the NFL as long as you can make all the throws. It's a little different in Buffalo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Rich Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Is it the same as the difference between Gale Gilbert and JP Losman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 How poorly JP played? Maybe how poorly the offense played. I didn't see Willis and the o-line play very well in the first 4 games. 479307[/snapback] blah, blah, blah, blah....did you ever stop to consider that all of these things depend on the other? There are very few NFL QB's that can singlehandedly carry a team. JP is certainly not one of them at this point, and neither is Holcomb. All we required of Losman going in to the season was to be competent, and he wasn't. A competent QB can make an average O-line look competent. A competent QB can help a running game...is it a mere coinicidence that the offense is playing quite a bit better with a competent QB? What good is arm strength if you can't throw accurately? To those who discredit Holcombs' performance because he beat "weak" teams, need I remind you that Miami and the NY Jets are supposed to have superior defenses than the Saints. Face it, JP Losman is just not ready to be a starter yet. He was brutal against both the Falcons and the Saints, in two games that would have required a merely competent QB to win. Plays were there for him to make, not even big plays, just little things to sustain drives. He could not do it. Holcomb, so far, has proven that he can do enough to help this team win. Holcomb may never be the athlete that JP is, and who knows, JP may end up being 100 times better an NFL QB than Holcomb will ever be. But he is not there yet, and really has done nothing to warrent being handed a starting job on an NFL team, when there is better help on the roster right now. He will have to earn it...or Holcomb will have to show that he is as awful as you are pretending he is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 blah, blah, blah, blah....did you ever stop to consider that all of these things depend on the other? A competent QB can make an average O-line look competent. A competent QB can help a running game... 479584[/snapback] These concepts shouldn't be foriegn to people who spent the last 2.5 seasons watching Drew Bledsoe vapor lock on a regular basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Rich Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 These concepts shouldn't be foriegn to people who spent the last 2.5 seasons watching Drew Bledsoe vapor lock on a regular basis. 479588[/snapback] Who's Drew Bledsoe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardy Pyle Posted October 18, 2005 Author Share Posted October 18, 2005 "He will have to earn it...or Holcomb will have to show that he is as awful as you are pretending he is... " Re-read the post. I didn't say Holcomb was awful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Rich Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Yes you did. Right here.... "He will have to earn it...or Holcomb will have to show that he is as awful as you are pretending he is... " Re-read the post. I didn't say Holcomb was awful. 479610[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Let's see what happens come Nov and Dec and the wind is blowing in off the lake. Arm strength, in general, isn't that important in the NFL as long as you can make all the throws. It's a little different in Buffalo. 479538[/snapback] Bro, you raise a great point. Year after friggin year, I have been calling (admittedly to an excessive degree) for the Bills to field a different kind of offensive football team. JP has enough arm strength to play in Buffalo, but ONLY if he is able to be a competent NFL QB. This he has not yet proven. I am not worried; whereas he will get his chance due to injuries or other factors to show us if he is good or if he sucks. Right now, it is (imo) futile to argue against 2 consecutive divisional victories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 Just wondering what the difference is because they both seem to be mediocre armed QB's who are good at getting the ball out quickly and distributing the ball. So have we gone full circle from AVP v1.0 to AVP v2.0? If this is satisfactory, as most have expressed, why didn't we just stick with AVP? 479125[/snapback] I would say that the difference is that while Holcomb doesn't necessarily have a strong arm, his arm strenght is not so inadequate that it's actually a problem, the way Van Pelt's was. Look at arguably the biggest play of the game on Sunday and you'll see Holcomb with good velocity on the hash post he threw to Campbell with about 8 minutes left in teh 4th qrtr. He hasn't flashed it much because he apparently hasn't liked a lot of what he's seen downfield and he wants to protect teh ball; but in the past I've seen him agressively attack teams downfield and flash just enough arm to do it succesfully. Let's see what happens come Nov and Dec and the wind is blowing in off the lake. Arm strength, in general, isn't that important in the NFL as long as you can make all the throws. It's a little different in Buffalo. Normally I would agree that The Hawk is really something we need to worry about. But the fact that Holcomb played on the exact same lake in Nov and Dec in Cleveland combined with the fact that the Bills most certainly closely examined film of those games puts my mind at ease. Here are some numbers for Holcombe in Cleveland's home games played at the Mistake by the Lake in November and December: 78 for 122 for a 64% completion rate 6Td's 6 Int's 83.4 average QB rating 22.2pts/game A 2-3 record vs Atlanta, Pittsburgh, St Louis, Tennessee and Arizona On the whole, not too terrible considering the the sorry teams he was playign with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 Just wondering what the difference is because they both seem to be mediocre armed QB's who are good at getting the ball out quickly and distributing the ball. So have we gone full circle from AVP v1.0 to AVP v2.0? If this is satisfactory, as most have expressed, why didn't we just stick with AVP? 479125[/snapback] Probably should have, at least for another year.We might have Ty Warren at LDE, $4M more cap space, and a few less banned posters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 I think the difference is seen not only in a comparison of the two individuals but more holistically of the whole situtation. The biggest factors to me in terms of performance is that there is a big difference from the AVP1.1 situation where this was a move from Jim Kelly to AVP, the move from RJ to AVP sen in AVP 1.2, or the move from JP to KH (for comparison purposes lets call this AVP 1.3). I think you are correct in asking similarity questions because actually the Bills experienced success with all three moves. However, I thionk the short-term success we had in moving to AVP in many ways happened to what I use to call the AVP effect. Opponents having knocked out our starter due to an injury would let down and even a plucky rag-arm like AVP would come in and make the opponents who were already thinking about who they would play next Sunday or how many girls they would bag that week pay for their inattention. There was simply a world of difference between the performance of an AVP coming in to drive the team for a TD against Pitts after Kelly got hurt, or almost beating Denver after they put up a big lead and knocked out Collins, or AVP coming in and driving the Bills to a winning FG after RJ got knocked out and the performance of AVP as a starter. I think it was 98 when poor performance by Collins and Hobert proving to be an idiot got AVP a start at home against NE and given time to prepare NE simply destroyed AVP and the Bills. Likewise when RJ flamed out and AVP came in against the Jets, the opponents were able to figure out that one could fool AVP will a well-practiced fake coverage and they picked him off a few times. The big difference with the JP to KH switch which makes it far more than AVP 1.2 is that the move from JP to KH is such a far more sigificant upgrade than even the move from the hapless RJ to AVP it isn't even close (RJ was actually a talented player who could throw the longball well and accurately as he did in games such as the one where SF challenged him by going single coverage with their CBs, the problem was that he was injury prone and seemingly a stiff wind would break his clavicle, separate his sternum or debilitate him someway which made him totality unreliable to depend on). The big difference here to the AVP situtations is that JP proved to be so disgustingly unproductive in our first 4 games and took away any productivity with the WRs in our offense that even with a downgrade in arm strength it does not matter is KH upgrades by even throwing with rag arm accuracy (his arm strength is not as good as JP but is at pro QB levels actually and I do not see us being DOOMED to a bad Nov/Dec simply because his arm strength is less than the powerful but inaccurate arms of JP and Bledsoe for that matter) to the WRs. Our O simply offers more threats because we now throw with some accuracy to the WRs and Moulds and Evans are now a big part of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 To me they are very similar players but that Kelly Holcomb is slightly better at everything. He moves a little quicker and makes decisions a little quicker and gets the ball out a little quicker and runs a little faster and throws a (very little) harder. All of those add up to being quite a bit better however, because they mask the deficiencies that both have much more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Campy Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 To me they are very similar players but that Kelly Holcomb is slightly better at everything. He moves a little quicker and makes decisions a little quicker and gets the ball out a little quicker and runs a little faster and throws a (very little) harder. All of those add up to being quite a bit better however, because they mask the deficiencies that both have much more. 480314[/snapback] From what I've seen, yet what no one is talking about, is that Holcomb has very good pocket presence. He seems to have pretty decent feel for where the pressure's coming from and for how much time he has back there. An underrated part of his game IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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