This is hard to say!

[MadBuffaloDisease]

Anyone? Hello?

[Ramius]

Anyone?  Hello?

480507[/snapback]

 

Your points were right on...the pats needed brady to swim, but hes been given siwmmies and a life jacket, so of course hes gonna swim well. Now, and in '02, you take wittle tommy's swimmies off, and hes showing that he cant do much more than doggy paddle to keep afloat...

[MadBuffaloDisease]

Your points were right on...the pats needed brady to swim, but hes been given siwmmies and a life jacket, so of course hes gonna swim well. Now, and in '02, you take wittle tommy's swimmies off, and hes showing that he cant do much more than doggy paddle to keep afloat...

I've argued with Pats/Brady fans for years about Brady's supposed "greatness." Yet they cannot give me any explanation for those 2 things above (2001 Pgh AFCCG and the 2002 season), while the officiating foibles are passed-off as "sour grapes," when it's apparent to anyone who knows the NFL rules what happened. Brady is a good QB, don't get me wrong, and saying he's "overrated" or "not great" is not saying that he "sucks." But I've NEVER seen a QB more dependent on his supporting cast, and the fact that he's won every SB by just 3 points demonstrates that pretty clearly.

[Johnny Coli]

If by "be exposed" you mean that he leads the league in yards passing, has a 62% completion percentage and a passer rating of 92, yeah, you're right.  All this with no semblance of a running game.  The only bright spot of the Patriots season thus far has been the play of Brady.  Yeah, that sounds like a “slightly better than mediocre QB”, sure. 

 

480485[/snapback]

And Drew Bledsoe has a 63% completion rating and and a passer rating of 100.4 with a slightly better running game than the Pats. I don't see your point. I don't see anyone (other than a few posters on this board) suggesting Bledsoe is carrying the 4-2 Cowboys and quickly on his way to the HOF. No way his recent success could be the coach down there, could it?

 

Your defense of a slightly better than mediocre QB is inspiring, and far be it from me to dissuade your idol worship. But outside of this fantasy world where Brady is the keystone in a "dynasty", the reality is he is about as important to that team as Vinitieri’s holder, and a case could be made that he is less important.

 

Also, my reluctance to reduce this debate to a third-grade level "wager" isn't gonna happen. In the end I care even less about this than you do.

[IDBillzFan]

Brady will be in the conversation of the "best ever" when he retires along with when he's inducted into the HOF.   

AKC makes me laugh with his skewed and/or made up stats.  Its like he's still running around trying to convince us all that the world really is flat.

480120[/snapback]

What everyone here seem to be ignoring is the one truth we all know: most every Pats fan is a bandwagon fan. You're 3-3, and even if you sweep us (wow, big accomplishment that), your season will not recover and your glory days are done. We both know it because your contributions to this board are now strictly held to discussing what WAS with your team. Once they don't make the playoffs this year, I'm sure you'll go back to ignoring the team just like every other Pats fan, including T-Bone.

 

The question becomes...will you embrace another NFL team that is winning, like T-Bone, or simply hope your baseball team gets better?

 

Gotta say, Thurman. I'm almost gonna miss you. It was fun while it lasted.

[34-78-83]

Things that Brady, himself (these are not team influenced attributes), is able to do that make him a very, VERY good quarterback:

(I actually watch some Patriot games if that matters)

 

 

- Read defenses: He is nearly always making the correct decision as to where to go with the ball, down to his 3rd and fourth reads if needed. He is one of the better Qb's at looking off/holding safeties and backers in positions that will become an advantage for his receivers and their spacing on the field.

 

- Accuracy: He has a knack for hitting his receivers in stride, often allowing them to continue for yards after the catch. Even under heavy pressure, in MOST cases, he keeps his eyes down the field and is able to throw accurately.

 

- Poise: As mentioned above he keeps his focus down the field better than most. Without being necessarily mobile he has a very good feel in the pocket and an ability to side-step well to avoid rushers. His heart rate probably does not fluctuate nearly as much as most Qb's when under pressure.

 

- Touch: He has a good understanding for the drop depths taken by defenders and is able to place some tough throws over the coverage of the linebackers and underneath the zones of defensive backs. His medium to low end long ball, while not very impressive strength-wise always seems to drop in the bread basket nicely. He throws very accurate screens and flat passes, which is seemingly becoming somewhat of a lost art these days.

 

- Clutch: The guy plays his best football when the stakes are highest. This wasn't the case with him early on, but it sure is now (see previous 2 Superbowls and Championship game last season)

 

 

Is this guy the best ever? NO

Will he finish his career as one of the best (ie. HOF): YES

Do I like him? NO

Does his offensive line get away with holding calls more than most other teams?: Yes

 

Edit- I am not interested in any sort of Yards per completion/ rating/passes over 40 yards/How many times he winks at his center statistical debate.

[Thurman's Helmet]

What everyone here seem to be ignoring is the one truth we all know: most every Pats fan is a bandwagon fan. You're 3-3, and even if you sweep us (wow, big accomplishment that), your season will not recover and your glory days are done. We both know it because your contributions to this board are now strictly held to discussing what WAS with your team. Once they don't make the playoffs this year, I'm sure you'll go back to ignoring the team just like every other Pats fan, including T-Bone.

 

The question becomes...will you embrace another NFL team that is winning, like T-Bone, or simply hope your baseball team gets better?

 

Gotta say, Thurman. I'm almost gonna miss you. It was fun while it lasted.

480593[/snapback]

 

 

So because you simply cant argue about anything else, you make false assumptions about the majority of Pats fans. Who are you to judge how long someone else has been a fan of a team for? Just because your team has a long history of sucking minus an 8 year span or so, doenst mean that you guys are the only "lovable losers" of the NFL. We've gone from extreme rags and now we're enjoying riches.

 

Or did you become a Bills fan around 1990?

[The Dean]

So because you simply cant argue about anything else, you make false assumptions about the majority of Pats fans.  Who are you to judge how long someone else has been a fan of a team for?        Just because your team has a long history of sucking minus an 8 year span or so, doenst mean that you guys are the only "lovable losers" of the NFL.    We've gone from extreme rags and now we're enjoying riches.       

 

Or did you become a Bills fan around 1990?

480634[/snapback]

 

 

I can tell ya, when I lived in the Boston area in the late 80s you had to search high and low to find a real Pats fan. The Red Sox...win or lose...the fans are at the game and wear their emotions on their sleeve. Red Sox talk is all year. The Bruins? Real fans (real stupid fans...but real fans, nonetheless).

 

The Pats...the New England (not Boston, mind you) Patriots were the bastard red-headed stepchild of teams back then.

 

I'm not saying there were NO real Pats fans...just that you'd never confuse the Pats fan base with that of Buffalo/Cleveland/Green Bay/Kansas City...get the picture?

 

I'll reserve my opinion of the Celtics fans for the other board where racisim and the NBA is being discussed.

[stuckincincy]

Things that Brady, himself (these are not team influenced attributes), is able to do that make him a very, VERY good quarterback:

(I actually watch some Patriot games if that matters)

 

Edit- I am not interested in any sort of Yards per completion/ rating/passes over 40 yards/How many times he winks at his center statistical debate. 

480596[/snapback]

 

Good post. Last year, using NFL.com's player profile, I compared older vets Farve/Bledsoe/Testaverde for 40+ yard completions. They were equivalent, at about 2 percent of their lifetime pass completions.

 

The 40 yd. completion is a pretty rare thing. Exciting when it happens, but it's more of an oddity.

[Johnny Coli]

I can tell ya, when I lived in the Boston area in the late 80s you had to search high and low to find a real Pats fan. 

480639[/snapback]

That's because in the '80s they were all Giants fans.

[Hollywood Donahoe]

What everyone here seem to be ignoring is the one truth we all know: most every Pats fan is a bandwagon fan.

Any evidence of this seemingly-never-ending mantra? Or is just something you say to make yourself feel better?

 

The Patriots are the only team I've ever rooted for, and the only team I ever will root for. A series of events led me to begin rooting for them when they were the worst team in the NFL, so I started out on the very bottom. I'm certainly not the oldest, most experienced, or longest-tenured Patriots fan; but they have always been my team, and they always will be.

 

So whatever truth there may be to you "bandwagon fan" mantra, it doesn't apply to me, so I kindly ask you to stop generalizing.

[Alaska Darin]

Tom Brady has at least one thing in common with Joe Montana:

 

Both are overrated by alot of people. Time has apparently given Montana a large pass and I suspect the same thing will happen with Brady in the future.

[AKC]

 

 

- Read defenses: He is nearly always making the correct decision as to where to go with the ball, down to his 3rd and fourth reads if needed. He is one of the better Qb's at looking off/holding safeties and backers in positions that will become an advantage for his receivers and their spacing on the field.

 

 

- Accuracy: He has a knack for hitting his receivers in stride, often allowing them to continue for yards after the catch. Even under heavy pressure, in MOST cases, he keeps his eyes down the field and is able to throw accurately.

 

- Poise: As mentioned above he keeps his focus down the field better than most. Without being necessarily mobile he has a very good feel in the pocket and an ability to side-step well to avoid rushers. His heart rate probably does not fluctuate nearly as much as most Qb's when under pressure.

 

- Touch: He has a good understanding for the drop depths taken by defenders and is able to place some tough throws over the coverage of the linebackers and underneath the zones of defensive backs. His medium to low end long ball, while not very impressive strength-wise always seems to drop in the bread basket nicely. He throws very accurate screens and flat passes, which is seemingly becoming somewhat of a lost art these days.

 

480596[/snapback]

 

 

I thought you were writing a review of former League MVP Rich Gannon when his line was giving him time!

 

 

It's amazing how much better even some of the worst QBs in the league look at the above skills when they have time in the pocket.

 

I've seen guys I thought were absolutely stationary juke the best rushers in the league when they were put in situations their lines were giving them time on most downs and they were only being asked to make minor foot adjustments instead of fight off a bull rush on passing downs.

 

I've seen career journeymen who spent full seasons locking onto their primary read and blowing off progressions turn into league MVPs with their field vision when they got into an offense favorable to them and they had a reliable line in front of them.

 

Time makes all QBs better, and when you have time the small elements like moving a step to one side or the other now and then IMO become hundreds of times easier. It's facing major pressure that turns almost everyone into garbage, and the few times I've seen the Patsy line break down in recent years Brady has looked just as bad as Rick Mirer.

[AKC]

I kindly ask you to stop generalizing.

480706[/snapback]

 

Enough with the feeble whining- finding a Pat's fan in L.A. 6 years ago took a very good Private Eye and plenty of cash. I hear from my friends in Boston it was exactly the same way. Oh, the Sox fans were still around but a Pat's fan sighting was akin to dining with a Yeti.

 

Spare us your ill-advise, uninformed and unwelcome lecturing.

[Hollywood Donahoe]

Enough with the feeble whining- finding a Pat's fan in L.A. 6 years ago took a very good Private Eye and plenty of cash. I hear from my friends in Boston it was exactly the same way. Oh, the Sox fans were still around but a Pat's fan sighting was akin to dining with a Yeti.

I don't live in L.A., I don't live in Boston, and I'm not a Sox fan. What does any of that have to do with me?

[Bill from NYC]

Tom Brady has at least one thing in common with Joe Montana:

 

Both are overrated by alot of people.  Time has apparently given Montana a large pass and I suspect the same thing will happen with Brady in the future.

480711[/snapback]

 

I have heard words to this effect before. In his book, Tim Green said that Young was clearly better than Montana. Honestly, I have never thought so. What makes you think that Montana was/will be overrated?

 

The two games that stuck out to me wrt Montana were the SBs vs. Denver and Cinn. Against Cinn., the 2 minute drill was the obvious reason and how he checked off primary receivers.

Against Denver, in his first drive there was a third and perhaps 17. He threaded the needle with an 18 yard completion to his fullback, and it was between the hands of 3 Bronco defenders. The game was over.

 

I am the very first to say that any qb is as good as his blocking (see Kurt Warner), but it was watching Montana that taught me that arm strength was down on the list of things that make a qb great.

(OK, Stabler showed me that even beforehand).

[AKC]

I don't live in L.A., I don't live in Boston, and I'm not a Sox fan.  What does any of that have to do with me?

480722[/snapback]

 

I see- you were the one in Boston during that time with the Grogan jersey ;-)

[Hollywood Donahoe]

I see- you were the one in Boston during that time with the Grogan jersey ;-)

I've never lived in Boston.

[The Dean]

I have heard words to this effect before. In his book, Tim Green said that Young was clearly better than Montana.  Honestly, I have never thought so. What makes you think that Montana was/will be overrated?

 

The two games that stuck out to me wrt Montana were the SBs vs. Denver and Cinn. Against Cinn., the 2 minute drill was the obvious reason and how he checked off primary receivers.

Against Denver, in his first drive there was a third and perhaps 17. He threaded the needle with an 18 yard completion to his fullback, and it was between the hands of 3 Bronco defenders. The game was over.

 

I am the very first to say that any qb is as good as his blocking (see Kurt Warner), but it was watching Montana that taught me that arm strength was down on the list of things that make a qb great.

(OK, Stabler showed me that even beforehand). 

480723[/snapback]

 

 

I'm a firm believer that Steve Young was better than Joe. In fact, Steve is the best QB I've ever seen play. Granted, I didn't know a whole lot when I saw Unitas. I'm not the only one to think so, either. In a very surprising article ESPN Magazine came up with a new calculation to rank QBs. The result...best QB ever: Steve Young. Now, I certainly didin't use that for my decision, nor do I think that will (or should) change the mind of anyone who thinks differently.

 

Steve just brought more things to the game than Joe. Steve used his offensive weapons and he was a weapon himself. He ran when he had to (extremely well, at that)...rarely made a bad decision when to run or not. He also threw on the run as well as anyone has, IMO.

 

Joe had more talent than Steve on his teams. Roger Craig alone was a huge differrence. Finally, when he needed to sit on the bench Steve did it with class and respect...and come off the bench and delivered. When Joe was relegated to the bench he whined like a little Flutie...er...baby.

 

As great as Young's career was think of what could have been. Steve started his career in the USFL...went to die in Tampa Bay with one of the worst teams ever (I thought he was doomed to be another Archie Manning) and sat behind Joe during a good chunk of his prime. (I'm not saying he shouldn't have been behind Joe then. Montana was taking the tean to Super Bowls...he HAD to sit for awhile.)

 

I also believe Terry Bradshaw belongs in the great QB conversations and is NEVER included. I'm not saying Terry IS the best...but he fits most (if not all) of the criteria used when discussing Mr. Montana.

[Bill from NYC]

I'm a firm believer that Steve Young was better than Joe.  In fact, Steve is the best QB I've ever seen play.  Granted, I didn't know a whole lot when I saw Unitas.  I'm not the only one to think so, either.  In a very surprising article ESPN Magazine came up with a new calculation to rank QBs.  The result...best QB ever: Steve Young.  Now, I certainly didin't use that for my decision, nor do I think that will (or should) change the mind of anyone who thinks differently.

 

Steve just brought more things to the game than Joe.  Steve used his offensive weapons and he was a weapon himself.  He ran when he had to (extremely well, at that)...rarely made a bad decision when to run or not.  He also threw on the run as well as anyone has, IMO.

 

Joe had more talent than Steve on his teams.  Roger Craig alone was a huge differrence.  Finally, when he needed to sit on the bench Steve did it with class and respect...and come off the bench and delivered.  When Joe was relegated to the bench he whined like a little Flutie...er...baby.

 

As great as Young's career was think of what could have been.  Steve started his career in the USFL...went to die in Tampa Bay with one of the worst teams ever (I thought he was doomed to be another Archie Manning) and sat behind Joe during a good chunk of his prime.  (I'm not saying he shouldn't have been behind Joe then.  Montana was taking the tean to Super Bowls...he HAD to sit for awhile.)

 

I also believe Terry Bradshaw belongs in the great QB conversations and is NEVER included.  I'm not saying Terry IS the best...but he fits most (if not all) of the criteria used when discussing Mr. Montana.

480742[/snapback]

 

Bradshaw WAS great, but imo, he had even MORE weapons than Montana, and his defense was probably the best of all time. Unlike the 86 Bears, their greatness lingered on.

For a while, every player on that D was superb. In fact, Joe Green and Mel Blount were perhaps the best ever (or oh so close to it) at their positions. Lambert, Wagner, Greenwood, Ham, Holmes, White.....these guys kept opponents off the field.

On offense, his line was in the all time top ten, and he had Swan, Stallworth, Harris, Blier. Not enough? How about Cunningham AND Grossman at TE?

 

Bro, I am not making light of your comparison, but I am thinking that I would place Montana over TB.

Jmo.