OGTEleven Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Well IMHO if you believe in evolution, then it is hard for me to see how you could believe in God. By God, I'm talking about the Christian form of God. Now if we are talking about energy or spiritual powers as being as God, well then I would tend to agree with you. 479552[/snapback] Is it hard to believe in the Christian form of God or just the biblical account of creation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col_forbin Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Is it hard to believe in the Christian form of God or just the biblical account of creation? 479576[/snapback] I would have to say both in that instance. What's the difference....maybe I'm missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 I would have to say both in that instance. What's the difference....maybe I'm missing something? 479639[/snapback] Well, basically you're missing everything after about page 10 of the bible, but whatever. I'm curious as to the details of how evolution/universe precludes God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of BiB Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 I would have to say both in that instance. What's the difference....maybe I'm missing something? 479639[/snapback] So, in your opinion man is the most "powerful" thing in the universe. No greater intellect. No greater reason. No greater vision, no greater wisdom. You (humankind) are the epitome of what can ever be. Science and evolution? Sure, it's there and makes sense, but how much do you think we don't know? We now have explanations for many of the processes, in so far as they are processes. I've yet to see a scientific answer for the synergy. It wasn't that long ago we could not explain gravity or magnetism, let alone the fundamentals of matter. Now, these forces are taken for granted. What is left to be discovered? Is it impossible to believe that one day a new universal force will be described - but lacks rational explanation, and for lack of a better name we might end up calling it God? What about beyond us? If we are so advanced and powerful, why waste the potential after only 60-80 years or so? Is this any form of efficiency? Not in any operation I've ever heard of. But, many will find it impossible to believe that we might have an existance beyond what we know now. I just personally find this outlook very egotistical, narrow minded and short sighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col_forbin Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Well, basically you're missing everything after about page 10 of the bible, but whatever. I'm curious as to the details of how evolution/universe precludes God. 479690[/snapback] Correct me if I'm wrong, but evolution is theory that we evolved from apes. The bible says God created man. Therfore, if you believe in one you can't believe in the other. So what I'm saying is most christian folks believe that "God" did this (created man). Now, if evolution is correct, then God did not create man. Meaning there is no God, or at least one like most christians believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfanmiami(oh) Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 For the record, I'm pretty sure the majority of people in scientific fields believe in God and most of them believe in the typical "Christian" God. Belief in evolution does not prevent you from believing in God. In fact I think the more things we discover about the universe, the more it calls for there being a supreme creator that must have put this all together. From what I remember in one of my philosophy classes a couple years ago, that is the general idea of the "design argument", which is one of the strongest arguments for the existance of a higher power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCDAWG Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Correct me if I'm wrong, but evolution is theory that we evolved from apes. The bible says God created man. Therfore, if you believe in one you can't believe in the other. So what I'm saying is most christian folks believe that "God" did this (created man). Now, if evolution is correct, then God did not create man. Meaning there is no God, or at least one like most christians believe. 479736[/snapback] First the theroy of evolution does not say we are from apes. Second, and just curious here, do you believe the bible word for word? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Correct me if I'm wrong, but evolution is theory that we evolved from apes. The bible says God created man. Therfore, if you believe in one you can't believe in the other. So what I'm saying is most christian folks believe that "God" did this (created man). Now, if evolution is correct, then God did not create man. Meaning there is no God, or at least one like most christians believe. 479736[/snapback] Nothing precludes God creating man via the evolution of apes, though. The real issue traditional Christianity has with evolution is that Genesis says God gave Man dominion over all the beasts of the earth. But evolution says man is equivalant to those same beasts. Ergo, one or the other must be wrong, since Man can't both be above the beasts and one of them. Of course, that's only a problem if you believe a literal reading of Genesis. Aside from that one chapter of the Old Testament, I know nothing that precludes saying, for example, that evolution is the divine plan through which God exercises creation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfanmiami(oh) Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 First the theroy of evolution does not say we are from apes. Second, and just curious here, do you believe the bible word for word? Exactly...Evolution is technically the change in allele frequencies over time for a population. This does happen and it can be proven. If you check out some genetics and some phylogenetic systematics (cladistics) a bit and really get familiar with the ideas, it makes sense. Fossil evidence and our knowledge about living things on earth today allows us to construct relatively accurate lineages of organisms over time that are based on shared, derived characteristics. It's definitely the best way to scientifically explain what we see in the world today. Does it provide all the answers? Heck no, but it gives us a good idea of what's happened since the earth formed. Having said that, I was just going to say the same thing as CTM. As long as you don't take Genesis 100% literally (lots of the Bible is not meant to be taken literally), you could believe in evolution and say its God's plan for us. I mean God by definition is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent so all he'd have to do is set the "rules" and then watch everything unfold. This also allows for free will to be thrown into the equation. I know this isn't the kind of stuff they teach at Sunday school but its very interesting to think about and learn about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 The view is widely held by many that on Earth, life originated in the waters. It's interesting, then, to note these four passages from The Book of Genesis: Genesis 1:19 And the evening and the morning was the fourth day. Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundently the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. Genesis 1:21 And God created the great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundently, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind, and God saw it was good. Genesis 1:22 And God blessed them, saying be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of BiB Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Exactly...Evolution is technically the change in allele frequencies over time for a population. This does happen and it can be proven. If you check out some genetics and some phylogenetic systematics (cladistics) a bit and really get familiar with the ideas, it makes sense. Fossil evidence and our knowledge about living things on earth today allows us to construct relatively accurate lineages of organisms over time that are based on shared, derived characteristics. It's definitely the best way to scientifically explain what we see in the world today. Does it provide all the answers? Heck no, but it gives us a good idea of what's happened since the earth formed. Having said that, I was just going to say the same thing as CTM. As long as you don't take Genesis 100% literally (lots of the Bible is not meant to be taken literally), you could believe in evolution and say its God's plan for us. I mean God by definition is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent so all he'd have to do is set the "rules" and then watch everything unfold. This also allows for free will to be thrown into the equation. I know this isn't the kind of stuff they teach at Sunday school but its very interesting to think about and learn about. 479787[/snapback] Most times when people discuss these issues, no one talks too much gray. It's either black or white. I don't want to step on too many biblical toes, but anyone taking the entire old testament (and new, for that matter) as the way it was and the way things are is pretty narrowly focused. Most major ancient religions have similar stories and speaking bible specific, it is the story of one group of people with a fairly common sense of beliefs. The basic "laws" of the bible (or of any other legitimate work of the time) set up basic societal survival skills. Always intertwined with government and laws. Funny how we can tell ourselves we are so smart, and stepping back we see we are are so stupid. Think about it. Any religious precept is grounded in man. They are all basically interpretations and opinions. Somehow, because we have developed a brain capable of technology, the true sense of wonder is gone for many - some people making the arguments gravitate to "science" and say all is A. Others gravitate to the "mystical" and vote B. Not a lot of room for C-X. But C-X is out there. Sorry if it's not in Scientific American or the King James. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted October 18, 2005 Share Posted October 18, 2005 Correct me if I'm wrong, but evolution is theory that we evolved from apes. The bible says God created man. Therfore, if you believe in one you can't believe in the other. So what I'm saying is most christian folks believe that "God" did this (created man). Now, if evolution is correct, then God did not create man. Meaning there is no God, or at least one like most christians believe. 479736[/snapback] I do not agree with either of these statements. A great number of scientists believe in God; in Christian leaning nations this tends to be the Christian God. And actually, evolution states that man and apes evolved from common ancestors, not that man evolved directly from apes. Based on the overwhelming complexity inherent in our world and the substructures therein, I have an extremely difficult time imagining that God did not have a hand in our getting here (and keeping us here). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col_forbin Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 First the theroy of evolution does not say we are from apes. Second, and just curious here, do you believe the bible word for word? 479744[/snapback] No the bible to me is a book that tries to teach morals, much like the Code of hammurabi. It is a book that teaches you right from wrong. By no stretch of the imagination to I believe it to be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col_forbin Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 So, in your opinion man is the most "powerful" thing in the universe. No greater intellect. No greater reason. No greater vision, no greater wisdom. You (humankind) are the epitome of what can ever be. 479719[/snapback] No....but up until this point that is all we have. Until I see different we are the cream of the crop. Like or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
col_forbin Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 Most times when people discuss these issues, no one talks too much gray. It's either black or white. I don't want to step on too many biblical toes, but anyone taking the entire old testament (and new, for that matter) as the way it was and the way things are is pretty narrowly focused. Most major ancient religions have similar stories and speaking bible specific, it is the story of one group of people with a fairly common sense of beliefs. The basic "laws" of the bible (or of any other legitimate work of the time) set up basic societal survival skills. Always intertwined with government and laws. Funny how we can tell ourselves we are so smart, and stepping back we see we are are so stupid. Think about it. Any religious precept is grounded in man. They are all basically interpretations and opinions. Somehow, because we have developed a brain capable of technology, the true sense of wonder is gone for many - some people making the arguments gravitate to "science" and say all is A. Others gravitate to the "mystical" and vote B. Not a lot of room for C-X. But C-X is out there. Sorry if it's not in Scientific American or the King James. 479826[/snapback] I agree. I mean look at the Romans and Greeks with their Gods and beliefs. These people were the height of society at the time, and people look back these wondering what they were thinking. In 2000 years they may be doing the same at us, or those us who believe in modern day religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 I agree. I mean look at the Romans and Greeks with their Gods and beliefs. These people were the height of society at the time, and people look back these wondering what they were thinking. In 2000 years they may be doing the same at us, or those us who believe in modern day religion. 479970[/snapback] They may or they may not. I have my own opinion but it is pretty much meaningless. Either way it is very unlikely that in 2000 or 10,000 or 100,000 years we will have the entire universe figured out. Why anyone thinks we have it figured out now is amazing to me. Ask yourself this....If you were God and you were good at what you did, would you leave behind any scientific proof for your existence or would you leave it up to faith? Would you force people to believe in you or would you give them complete freedom (along with its rewards and dangers)? Would you create/allow forces such as evolution or would you create a rigid and static universe? I'm sure some will view this as a simplistic way to always believe in God despite any scientific findings. Maybe they're right. But if so they are equally guilty when claiming knowledge of God's absence simply by what we know today or 100,000 years from now. There are many things which science has explained. All of them, when boiled down, are static in nature (lots of ones and zeroes). There are more important things (free will is an example but not the only one) that science does not begin to touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 Well IMHO if you believe in evolution, then it is hard for me to see how you could believe in God. By God, I'm talking about the Christian form of God. Now if we are talking about energy or spiritual powers as being as God, well then I would tend to agree with you. 479552[/snapback] Evoloution and Christianity are not mutually exclusive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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