nick in* england Posted October 12, 2005 Posted October 12, 2005 IMO JP needs to play at LEAST 8 games this year - preferably more. With any fewer next year starts just like this year. I like winning as much as any of the rest of you - but JP needs to be in the huddle, making plays not stood watching on the sideline. Look at the Niners - they're going with Alex Smith NOW - at 1-3, just like the Bills were... I'm not giving up on the season - but if we are going to have any long-term success or a shot at the title it's going to be with JP at the helm. He needs playing time pure and simple. If he's not back in in 3 weeks time, we'll be mortgaging next year on his development too.
1billsfan Posted October 12, 2005 Posted October 12, 2005 IMO JP needs to play at LEAST 8 games this year - preferably more. With any fewer next year starts just like this year. I like winning as much as any of the rest of you - but JP needs to be in the huddle, making plays not stood watching on the sideline. Look at the Niners - they're going with Alex Smith NOW - at 1-3, just like the Bills were... I'm not giving up on the season - but if we are going to have any long-term success or a shot at the title it's going to be with JP at the helm. He needs playing time pure and simple. If he's not back in in 3 weeks time, we'll be mortgaging next year on his development too. 473699[/snapback] Don't be suprised to see him in the Jet game if the Bills offense looks bad again and we're down double digits in the third quarter. One thing JP has over Holcomb is his ability to run. If Holcomb can't avoid getting sacked regularly behind our weak pass protecting line, Malarkey may give the ball and the opportunity to Losman to pull off a home comeback and help him gain stature as a leader on the offense.
Ned Flanders Posted October 12, 2005 Posted October 12, 2005 if we are going to have any long-term success or a shot at the title it's going to be with JP at the helm. He needs playing time pure and simple. 473699[/snapback] I'm really starting to have a problem with the thought of many that JP is the key to future success. He has showed nothing, NOTHING to suggest that this is the guy who's going to lead the Bills to the promised land. Now, I've only been watching this game for about 40 years, so I might be missing something. What is it, what is the magic that is JP that people think he is the end-all? What is it that folks see in JP to even remotely believe that he is the ingredient to future success? Was it week one vs the Texans? Something in a preseason game? Did he SAY something right during the off-season? He's a first round pick, that's the given...but the NFL scrap heap is full of first round QB busts (Shuler, Leaf, etc, etc). I hope JP is the second coming of Jim Kelly...but I have yet to see anything remotely close to a winning NFL qb in this guy. "But we'll never know until he plays," you howl. "And he's got the TOOLS," you add. I dunno...I just don't see it. He's just missing something, something that could lead me to believe that this guy IS the answer. Maybe we see something in JP this week...or next. Or next month, or next year. But as the Bills head into the sixth game of a sixteen game schedule, I believe Holcomb is the man.
wnyguy Posted October 12, 2005 Posted October 12, 2005 Well, the fact remains that we will never know until he plays.
Adam Posted October 12, 2005 Posted October 12, 2005 Don't be suprised to see him in the Jet game if the Bills offense looks bad again and we're down double digits in the third quarter. One thing JP has over Holcomb is his ability to run. If Holcomb can't avoid getting sacked regularly behind our weak pass protecting line, Malarkey may give the ball and the opportunity to Losman to pull off a home comeback and help him gain stature as a leader on the offense. 473706[/snapback] Donahoe and Mularkey saw something in him- and thats all that matters. He looked very green in his 4 games, but he looked like a QV- something we havent seen since #12 retired
UConn James Posted October 12, 2005 Posted October 12, 2005 If he's not back in in 3 weeks time, we'll be mortgaging next year on his development too. 473699[/snapback] Happened last year as people were willing to stick with Bledose until he came up small vs. Pitt. m it'll happen this year as everyone's screaming to start Holcomb b/c he'll get us a guaranteed 5 wins (WOO HOO for mediocrity!!! ). It's called patience, something that NO ONE here has. Everyone expects the catepillar to instantly turn into the butterfly. Fully agree with the timeframe. If he doesn't get playing time at least the last half of the season, we'll be doing the same thing next season, and if we still have wishy-washy coaches and TC's craptacular playcalling, he will ride the pine again and either go Ryan-Leaf-crazy or oxidize or both. I'm really starting to have a problem with the thought of many that JP is the key to future success. He has showed nothing, NOTHING to suggest that this is the guy who's going to lead the Bills to the promised land. 473718[/snapback] HE'S PLAYED FOUR EFFING GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CoachChuckDickerson Posted October 12, 2005 Posted October 12, 2005 HE'S PLAYED FOUR EFFING GAMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 473731[/snapback] and he got worse every game. Let him watch for a while, he isn't ready, plain and simple.
macaroni Posted October 12, 2005 Posted October 12, 2005 Look at the Niners - they're going with Alex Smith NOW - at 1-3, just like the Bills were... 473699[/snapback] The big difference is that the 49ers STARTED the season with their vet QB, he wasn't getting results, so they made the change to the rookie to give him experiance. With the Bills, they started the rookie feeling that he could play conservative, not make stupid mistakes, keep us in games, and the defense and special teams could end up winning for us ('ala the steelers last year). BUT ...... the defense isn't nearly as good as we anticipated, and expecting your special teams to win games singlehanded is pretty weak, add that to a QB who seeminly can't hit the side of a barn and we too must make a change in the other direction. I'm not saying JP will not eventually be the future ..... but I think we can all agree is is NOT the present ...... and like it or not ...... the coaches future rides on their win loss record NOW. To us fans there may be no difference between an 8-8 record starting Holcomb and a 4-12 record while getting experiance for JP, but trust me ...... there IS a big difference between 8-8 and 4-12 to the coaches point of view ..... and they don't (or at least shouldn't) care who is the starter as long as they win.
Fezmid Posted October 12, 2005 Posted October 12, 2005 If he's not back in in 3 weeks time, we'll be mortgaging next year on his development too. If we're 5-3 (or even 4-4), I'll mortgage next year. CW
DeeRay Posted October 12, 2005 Posted October 12, 2005 when do we need to play JP? It all depends... Is this a playoff team or not? If not, sure, play JP and anyone else you feel is a big part of the future of this team. But, don't set unreasonable expectations for the team and don't bullschitt the fans. You'd probably have to get rid of the long time vets that want to win now too, because they're not stupid and hate to rebuild. If so, then you've got to put your best 22 on the field and let it roll. Personally, I think this team is a "borderline" playoff team, even with Holcomb starting. I also think JP is in over his head. Sure, it's easy to say play JP. But, what about the other 10 guys around him? If they don't have the utmost confidence and trust that JP can lead them, make the right decisions, and consistently move the team, don't you run the risk of those 10 other guys having a sense of hopelessness? They may play hard, and play only to save their own jobs, but if they don't believe and have confidence that what they do is going to make a difference.... well, that's a tough environment to go to work in every day. I mean, even when the kid is protected he makes the wrong throws or misses wide open receeivers. What happened to being rewarded for playing well? If I were the coach, the first thing I'd do is tell Mr. Donahoe to "butt out"... and if he doesn't like it, fire me and let him coach the team. The second thing I'd do is continue to start Holcomb until Holcomb proves he's not the best option. In addition, I'd continue to give JP a certain number of plays each game that are especially designed to take advantage of certain situations for each opponent. I recall the 49ers doing this when Sam Wyche was an offensive assistant, back in 1980. They'd start DeBerg, then yank him and put Montana in for a few plays. Then go back to DeBerg, then to Montana, etc. They weren't willing to mortgage the future for the present.
UConn James Posted October 12, 2005 Posted October 12, 2005 Personally, I think this team is a "borderline" playoff team, even with Holcomb starting. 473752[/snapback] <Jim Mora voice> PLAYOFFS??!?!!?? PLAYOFFS??!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???? </Jim Mora voice>
1billsfan Posted October 12, 2005 Posted October 12, 2005 and he got worse every game. Let him watch for a while, he isn't ready, plain and simple. 473734[/snapback] I took a look at the Saints game yesterday and was astonished at how our coaches put JP behind the eight ball. After a solid touchdown drive on he's first possession the coaches lost it in terms of play calling. We get the ball on our 10 yard line and after Willis gets stuffed Malarkey calls a rollout to the right when max protection was on the left hand side. An untouched Saint promptly almost sacks him for a saftey. On the next possession they had him rolling out to his left (JP is a right handed QB!) and when he tried to transition to turn and plant he got hammered as he lets the ball go. What we had was a team that was getting stuffed on first down and a green QB that got shaken quickly being on the road with the coaches stupifying play calling. When you have bad field position on the road you play conservative with a seven point lead. The coaches were pulling stuff out of their collective butts that still had me shaking my head. A veteren QB might have weathered the storm, but I would have liked to see what JP would have done if the coaches played it by the book. On average JP was getting hit at 2 1/2 seconds when passing, I'm hoping he gets another chance soon with the coaches putting him in better positions for success.
RuntheDamnBall Posted October 12, 2005 Posted October 12, 2005 1billsfan makes a good point wrt the coaching, which is that no matter who is directing this offense, it seems to succeed early on and then deflate. Clements seems to be wholly unable to adjust his playcalling to suit the situation at hand. At least last week a steady diet of Willis was able to put us in a ball-control situation that kept us alive for the win.
DeeRay Posted October 12, 2005 Posted October 12, 2005 a green QB that got shaken quickly I think you summed it up for yourself. If the kid can't handle get shaken quickly and dealing with it, then he's not ready. If you dumb down the offense for him, not only do you water down the talent around him (if any), you also simplified defending against the offense. Can't have it both ways... if you're going to exclusively go with JP than you essentially have to tank the season because the offensive impotence will not only cause frustration on the other 10 guys on offense, it will now add pressure to an already struggling defense and cause them to be on the field longer. It will also result in losing the battle of field position... especially when the Bills offense gets pinned back... the net affect is that the opposing offense will play on a short field much of the time. The Bills coaching staff is much better off dictating to the opposition, when they will use JP and what plays they will run, and how often they will do that.
Ramius Posted October 12, 2005 Posted October 12, 2005 I'm really starting to have a problem with the thought of many that JP is the key to future success. He has showed nothing, NOTHING to suggest that this is the guy who's going to lead the Bills to the promised land. Now, I've only been watching this game for about 40 years, so I might be missing something. What is it, what is the magic that is JP that people think he is the end-all? What is it that folks see in JP to even remotely believe that he is the ingredient to future success? Was it week one vs the Texans? Something in a preseason game? Did he SAY something right during the off-season? He's a first round pick, that's the given...but the NFL scrap heap is full of first round QB busts (Shuler, Leaf, etc, etc). I hope JP is the second coming of Jim Kelly...but I have yet to see anything remotely close to a winning NFL qb in this guy. "But we'll never know until he plays," you howl. "And he's got the TOOLS," you add. I dunno...I just don't see it. He's just missing something, something that could lead me to believe that this guy IS the answer. Maybe we see something in JP this week...or next. Or next month, or next year. But as the Bills head into the sixth game of a sixteen game schedule, I believe Holcomb is the man. 473718[/snapback] yah, be cause one can make career assumptions based on 4 games...
Fan in Chicago Posted October 12, 2005 Posted October 12, 2005 If you dumb down the offense for him, not only do you water down the talent around him (if any), you also simplified defending against the offense. 473837[/snapback] Given the talent or lack-thereof on the OL, it may be good to dumb down the offense and see what happens. I think the coaches are getting too creative and ambitious with a green QB and poor OL talent. This is simply compounding the problem. I still think our Miami win had nothing to do with the QB switch.
JOHNNYFAIRPLAY Posted October 12, 2005 Posted October 12, 2005 Football is not like a sales job where you read up on the product and sharpen your skills by reading materials. Its an OJT type of thing, if he doesnt play, he will not get better. Sitting on the sidelines does nothing for him, he needs to play. Anyone who says he can learn on the sidelines is wrong, its that simple. I like KH, but he was brought here for one reason, to BACK-UP and verbally guide and encourage JPL.
Arkady Renko Posted October 12, 2005 Posted October 12, 2005 Once we hit 5-6 losses, we should play JPL. Until then, we have a season to salvage.
UConn James Posted October 12, 2005 Posted October 12, 2005 I like KH, but he was brought here for one reason, to BACK-UP and verbally guide and encourage JPL. 473896[/snapback] Instead, he's doing exactly as I predicted he would when he was signed. 'JP who? I'll be starting from now on.' He ran the same Mr. Innocent Supplanter scheme with Couch. I hope JP holds up better, but it's gotta be a shock when the team said it was his team this year thick and thin then pulled him after four friggin' games. He needs a sit-down for a couple of games. Reading that BN article, I think KH has other ideas, tho.
Dan Posted October 12, 2005 Posted October 12, 2005 I think what we're seeing here is definitely the right and wrong way to bring up a future QB. After seeing bunches of "top" QBs come into the league over the years, I'm more and more certain that the real difference is the coaching and the way they're handled in their first year or 2 as a starter. Of course, there are exceptions. But in general, QBs that come in and are supported and coached properly and are left in through the ups and downs - turn out to be goo, solid Qbs. The ones that are continually pulled and moved around tend to bust. This may have as much to do with the perception other players have in their ability as they have in themselves. That I don't know. But, you can definitely see that trend when you look at QBs and their careers. How good can any player be when he is judged on an almost play to play basis. The pressure is enough, but then when you add they pressure of having to be perfect on every play - it seems to ruin players. Now I'm not saying JP or any QB should not be benched. All I'm saying is that you're walking down a very risky and slippery road when you do it too much. JP may not be the answer, but you'll never know with him on the side line. Furthermore, if JP is not the answer who is? How often does a team get a free agent seasoned QB that immediately wins with a new team. It happens, but not often. My point is that sooner or later you have to invest some time in the QB and let him develop or not. To expect immediate results (aka Big Ben or Tom Brady) is to expect something that is rare and not likely to happen. So, in my opinion, get JP in there after the bye. Simplify the offense for him. (simplify the defense too for that matter). And just let him develop for a season. It may mean we lose 1 season, but I'm thinking about not losing the next 10 seasons - which is pretty much what we've lost now. We've had about 10 years of losing when you think about it. Why? Because we continually bring players, coaches and staff in looking for that quick fix. Think long term and win long term.
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