blzrul Posted September 29, 2005 Posted September 29, 2005 I don't know the answer to this, all I know is we have to have a federal government program to provide cradle-to-grave health care nationwide - not only for citizens, but everyone who is on our soil. Otherwise, we're turning away bleeding babies at emergency rooms and old people will be dying in hospital parking lots, probably after they finish their last meal of Alpo. Anectdotes are fun. TRUE STORY: My family and I have been without health insurance for over a year. Nothing happened. 458400[/snapback] You are fortunate - I know a woman who died of cancer because her husband was laid off and couldn't keep up with COBRA payments, she couldn't work but tried to care for their little kids while he worked 2-3 crappy jobs to come up with the $100k+ for her treatment ... that this happens in America is unconscionable given our resources. I don't like entitlement programs but in a rich country like America people should have some options to access reasonable healthcare - whether it's a sliding fee scale, whatever. At least when it's provided by the private sector there is SOME incentive to keep the costs under control. Give free reign to the government to administer a national healthcare program for all ... hoo boy. One shudders to think! In CA you can get reasonable healthcare insurance at Costco - they have negotiated that with their carrier for their members. It will be interesting to see how that works and if it catches on.
UConn James Posted September 29, 2005 Posted September 29, 2005 We either have to pay for that treatment or not provide it. Whether we pay for it through taxes, higher insurance rates, higher medical care costs, higher prices for goods and services or some combination doesn't change the unalterable fact that we have to either pay for it or not provide it. 458143[/snapback] What always gets me is how some people take their position in the microcosm and apply it to the macrocosm. In the big picture, does it really matter who pays for it? Our country is a collection of things being done, decisions being made that all add up to whatever equation you're looking into... GDP, GNP, etc. Say what you want about the evils of a nationalized health care system (and I'm not talking about the Hilary plan b/c that was a lot of kak), but I've talked with lots of doctors who say it would make the system much easier and cut out the middleman insurance companies that drive their costs ever skyward (they say it can't keep going on like this, and that the supposed fixes proposed by the administration about capping lawsuits haven't fixed anything). And it would also make our country stronger. Whatever the answers are, no one in Congress is coming up with anything. When I had to go to a clinic this past summer w/ poison oak/sumac to get an Rx.... the problem of 40 million people hits home. Add into that all of the people who have bare-bones, in-name-only health coverage. Add into that that health care is becoming more and more an issue of public importance. AIDS, airborne viruses, SARS, West Nile, weird bacterial infections that are happening at an exponential rate now, etc., etc. All of these with easy transmission and getting it isn't always your own fault, but Bill K. Public is left to pay for it or go without and infect everyone else.
Terry Tate Posted September 29, 2005 Posted September 29, 2005 You are fortunate - I know a woman who died of cancer because her husband was laid off and couldn't keep up with COBRA payments, she couldn't work but tried to care for their little kids while he worked 2-3 crappy jobs to come up with the $100k+ for her treatment ... that this happens in America is unconscionable given our resources. I don't like entitlement programs but in a rich country like America people should have some options to access reasonable healthcare - whether it's a sliding fee scale, whatever. At least when it's provided by the private sector there is SOME incentive to keep the costs under control. Give free reign to the government to administer a national healthcare program for all ... hoo boy. One shudders to think! In CA you can get reasonable healthcare insurance at Costco - they have negotiated that with their carrier for their members. It will be interesting to see how that works and if it catches on. 458409[/snapback] People who actually have health insurance perish from accidents and illness all the time. I may be fortunate on a personal basis; on a statistical basis, I'm the norm. I believe options are out there for people that desire it. You mentioned COBRA (I passed on that myself). You mentioned discounted insurance at Costco. There are fliers sent home at the beginning of every school year for some sort of discounted insurance. I didn't read it very closely, but at a glance prices seemed low enough to be able to afford on a modest salary. They were included in the packet with the application for reduced price lunches, which I also ignored. Some people's priorities either do not include health insurance at all, or place it below other things, whatever they may be. The only direction you can take the argument to cover everyone is governmental control, because some people will not purchase it, regardless of the price. It would have to be free. Only one institution is going to be willing to do that, and it's not in the commercial world.
Terry Tate Posted September 29, 2005 Posted September 29, 2005 When I had to go to a clinic this past summer w/ poison oak/sumac to get an Rx.... the problem of 40 million people hits home. When I learn there are people that go to a clinic to get a prescription for poison oak, for all my concerns, I realize I sorely underestimate how much of a CF a national health care system would be.
UConn James Posted September 29, 2005 Posted September 29, 2005 I believe options are out there for people that desire it. You mentioned COBRA (I passed on that myself). You mentioned discounted insurance at Costco. There are fliers sent home at the beginning of every school year for some sort of discounted insurance. I didn't read it very closely, but at a glance prices seemed low enough to be able to afford on a modest salary. They were included in the packet with the application for reduced price lunches, which I also ignored. 458436[/snapback] I had one of those that I got for 6 months after I graduated, with a $250 deductible. Had a moderately serious situation and it covered about $100 of a $1,500 bill at a time when I was really stretched thin. All of the news stories and people make all of these claims about 40 million w/o health insurance. I ask What about those likely 50 million others with insurance-in-name-only? Do you want to sit on the toilet seat at Wal-Mart right after Harry Strangeass and think that one-ply seat cover is going to protect you from his bacterial-infection ass sores, and one or both you go untreated b/c you don't have health insurance?
UConn James Posted September 29, 2005 Posted September 29, 2005 When I learn there are people that go to a clinic to get a prescription for poison oak, for all my concerns, I realize I sorely underestimate how much of a CF a national health care system would be. 458438[/snapback] How about when the poison oak is weepy pustules over 50 percent of your body including the uhhh... nether regions? For an $18 face value steroid Rx, it started to reduce them in two days. Too bad the office visit of the two minutes it took to write on a piece of paper cost $150.
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted September 29, 2005 Posted September 29, 2005 I had one of those that I got for 6 months after I graduated, with a $250 deductible. Had a moderately serious situation and it covered about $100 of a $1,500 bill at a time when I was really stretched thin. All of the news stories and people make all of these claims about 40 million w/o health insurance. I ask What about those likely 50 million others with insurance-in-name-only? Do you want to sit on the toilet seat at Wal-Mart right after Harry Strangeass and think that one-ply seat cover is going to protect you from his bacterial-infection ass sores, and one or both you go untreated b/c you don't have health insurance? 458439[/snapback] I passed on CORBA too when I was unemployed. I have $500 in medical bills on a monthly basis, half of which is prescriptions. CORBA coverage would have cost me $350, with a $250 deductible and no prescription coverage. Didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that paying $350 for the privilege of paying $500 out-of-pocket each month was a bad idea when I could simply pay the $500 out of pocket and NOT line some insurance company's pockets. Of course, CORBA would have covered major medical expenses like losing a leg in a car accident...but I don't believe I have a right to be treated if I lose a leg in a car accident. So if I had...oh, well. Would've sucked.
Tux of Borg Posted September 29, 2005 Posted September 29, 2005 I've only had to fill one prescription in the past five years, and I did that through the VA. $10 for a month's worth of codeine is a bargain. I do think something needs to be done with the cost of prescription medicine. Letting generic drugs in from Canada is not the answer.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted September 29, 2005 Posted September 29, 2005 No matter how you slice it the hard choice remains the same, we either have to pay for those who can't afford health care or deny them treatment. Both choices are really, really bad but there it is. I didn't read his posts as wanting coverage for everyone and in fact, mandated employer provided health insurance won't provide coverage for everyone. 458153[/snapback] It's not a hard choice. No pay, no play. It's called capitalism.
VABills Posted September 29, 2005 Posted September 29, 2005 Yet I bet folks who have no health insurance, do have a TV, cable, probably drink or smoke, dvd players, video game consoles, all kind of DVD's and VHS tapes, etc.... Choices.
UConn James Posted September 29, 2005 Posted September 29, 2005 It's not a hard choice. No pay, no play. It's called capitalism. 458551[/snapback] More like Hear No Evil, See No Evil, Speak No Evil. And then we'll be shocked --- SHOCKED! --- when that evil bites us in the ass in the form of avian flu, etc. when someone who's uninsured doesn't go to the hospital, infects 20 people, those people infect 400 people,.... Health care is a public concern and I would argue it is a national security concern.
Wacka Posted September 29, 2005 Posted September 29, 2005 Want to lower health care cost significantly? Send the ILLEGAL ALIENS back to Mexico.
KD in CA Posted September 29, 2005 Posted September 29, 2005 You are fortunate - I know a woman who died of cancer because her husband was laid off and couldn't keep up with COBRA payments, she couldn't work but tried to care for their little kids while he worked 2-3 crappy jobs to come up with the $100k+ for her treatment ... that this happens in America is unconscionable given our resources. $100,000? Not to be insensitive, but he probably only need to come up with $10k to make the COBRA payments for a year, right? Yes there should be choices. Much like shopping for car insurance, everyone should be free to go to any carrier and pay the established rate for health coverage. We should remove employers from the equation entirely (which would free companies from a huge cost and administrative burden and allow them to increase hiring and pay rates). Also, this would stop the 'haves' who have good jobs at good companies from getting the good group rates and the 'have nots' from having to pay full retail for the same coverage on their own. Health insurance companies would have to take everyone on an equal footing. The government's role would be to enforce that -- i.e., protect people from being denied for 'pre existing' conditions and preventing companies from cherry picking the 'good' risks. Trying to force employers to provide health insurance is not going to help the lower class in the long run. Because when costs get too high, they simply will lay off more of those people, cut their pay rates or force them to pay for most of the health insurance premium themselves (which they won't do and will then decline coverage, putting you right back to square one). You can't control every aspect of a private organization and still call yourself a free country.
blzrul Posted September 29, 2005 Posted September 29, 2005 People who actually have health insurance perish from accidents and illness all the time. I may be fortunate on a personal basis; on a statistical basis, I'm the norm. I believe options are out there for people that desire it. You mentioned COBRA (I passed on that myself). You mentioned discounted insurance at Costco. There are fliers sent home at the beginning of every school year for some sort of discounted insurance. I didn't read it very closely, but at a glance prices seemed low enough to be able to afford on a modest salary. They were included in the packet with the application for reduced price lunches, which I also ignored. Some people's priorities either do not include health insurance at all, or place it below other things, whatever they may be. The only direction you can take the argument to cover everyone is governmental control, because some people will not purchase it, regardless of the price. It would have to be free. Only one institution is going to be willing to do that, and it's not in the commercial world. 458436[/snapback] I don't disagree with anything you've said. But I hate the thought of government administering it. I don't see much choice though.
Terry Tate Posted September 29, 2005 Posted September 29, 2005 I had one of those that I got for 6 months after I graduated, with a $250 deductible. Had a moderately serious situation and it covered about $100 of a $1,500 bill at a time when I was really stretched thin. All of the news stories and people make all of these claims about 40 million w/o health insurance. I ask What about those likely 50 million others with insurance-in-name-only? Do you want to sit on the toilet seat at Wal-Mart right after Harry Strangeass and think that one-ply seat cover is going to protect you from his bacterial-infection ass sores, and one or both you go untreated b/c you don't have health insurance? 458439[/snapback] And yet, you somehow managed to survive without nationalized health care, even through the russian roulette of public restrooms.
Terry Tate Posted September 29, 2005 Posted September 29, 2005 How about when the poison oak is weepy pustules over 50 percent of your body including the uhhh... nether regions? For an $18 face value steroid Rx, it started to reduce them in two days. Too bad the office visit of the two minutes it took to write on a piece of paper cost $150. 458442[/snapback] Eww. I've had poison oak infection all over my arms, and I used Technu products on it for relief. Didn't even think about going to the doctor. Of course, getting it on your johnson is a whole 'nother story. Well worth $168 to cure.
VABills Posted September 29, 2005 Posted September 29, 2005 I passed on CORBA too when I was unemployed. I have $500 in medical bills on a monthly basis, half of which is prescriptions. CORBA coverage would have cost me $350, with a $250 deductible and no prescription coverage. Didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that paying $350 for the privilege of paying $500 out-of-pocket each month was a bad idea when I could simply pay the $500 out of pocket and NOT line some insurance company's pockets. Of course, CORBA would have covered major medical expenses like losing a leg in a car accident...but I don't believe I have a right to be treated if I lose a leg in a car accident. So if I had...oh, well. Would've sucked. 458445[/snapback] Someones been writing JAVA code. It's COBRA not CORBA. COBRA is Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act CORBA is Common Object Request Broker Architecture Friggen idiot.
Terry Tate Posted September 29, 2005 Posted September 29, 2005 I passed on CORBA too when I was unemployed. I have $500 in medical bills on a monthly basis, half of which is prescriptions. CORBA coverage would have cost me $350, with a $250 deductible and no prescription coverage. Didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that paying $350 for the privilege of paying $500 out-of-pocket each month was a bad idea when I could simply pay the $500 out of pocket and NOT line some insurance company's pockets. Of course, CORBA would have covered major medical expenses like losing a leg in a car accident...but I don't believe I have a right to be treated if I lose a leg in a car accident. So if I had...oh, well. Would've sucked. 458445[/snapback] Which is the same reasoning I used when I passed on it as well. BTW, I did significantly increase my auto insurance medical/accident coverage when I dropped health insurance. I'll be lowering that back down when I enroll back into a health insurance plan in a week or so.
Terry Tate Posted September 29, 2005 Posted September 29, 2005 I don't disagree with anything you've said. But I hate the thought of government administering it. I don't see much choice though. 458851[/snapback] I agree completely with blzrul #1 and blzrul #2. I think blzrul #3 has to remove the emotion from it and see the big picture. Let us know how it turns out.
Mickey Posted September 30, 2005 Posted September 30, 2005 I passed on CORBA too when I was unemployed. I have $500 in medical bills on a monthly basis, half of which is prescriptions. CORBA coverage would have cost me $350, with a $250 deductible and no prescription coverage. Didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that paying $350 for the privilege of paying $500 out-of-pocket each month was a bad idea when I could simply pay the $500 out of pocket and NOT line some insurance company's pockets. Of course, CORBA would have covered major medical expenses like losing a leg in a car accident...but I don't believe I have a right to be treated if I lose a leg in a car accident. So if I had...oh, well. Would've sucked. 458445[/snapback] Yeah but if you have that accident, they will treat you and some one will have to pay for it. As a society, we long ago made the decision that we are not going to withhold needed medical care because the patient can't afford it. We are just having trouble accepting that we have to pay for it. Human nature. I have no problem with that decision, my complaint centers around the lack of political will to find an efficient way to pay for it. Politicians of every stripe took note at what happened to Hillarycare and they just don't have the stones to take their own swing at the problem.
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