OK, I'll join the fray.

[Bill from NYC]

Would I rather have Jennings in there? Probably. Would I rather have him in there for $42 million dollars and maybe have to cut loose someone like Milloy, E-Mo, Fletch? Hell no. Bottom line, Gandy is starting at LT for us making next to nothing and JP has not been getting creamed from the blindside. Not hearing a ton about Gandy since the season has started says plenty.

456932[/snapback]

 

No, he is getting "creamed" so much from every other spot that the RDE hasn't had time to murder him I suppose.

Hey, if you are thrilled by, or even satisfied with a pedestrian LT, that is certainly OK. I do urge you to take a look at the LTs of superbowl teams. You will see names such as Ogden, Pace, Elliot, Wolford, Shell, Slater, Munoz, and a host of others.

I am having trouble seeing Gandy on this list, but dream on.

[Ghost of BiB]

Neither are the Bills Organization.

456984[/snapback]

 

A glaring deficiency. Yet, they don't and haven't addressed it. I remember all the "woo hoo" over a power running game talk. Well, it takes more than a running back that could go down on any given play. WTF are we drafting a midget wide receiver for? With a rookie QB? OK, this is leaning to a line conversation, but I'm still going to try to keep the organization perspective. Are they so in love with the idea that a skill player may save the day that one can make do without the most simple of basics? You have to be able to block, tackle and cover if you want a Super Bowl. There are plenty of people out there that can catch or run the ball if you have those three first.

[AKC]

Jonas Jennings SF O line 05 -7 sacks allowed, blocked for 206 Yds rushing

Bills O line 05 - 7 sacks allowed, blocked for 339 yds rushing

 

Pat Williams 05  11 tackles, 5 assists, 1 sack

Ron Edwards 05  7 tackles, 2 assists

 

Record SF 1-2

           Minn 1-2

           Buff 1-2

 

Just don't see the big drop off

456961[/snapback]

 

I'd call Jennings a wash regardless of stats because we're looking for a rushing O and he's an awful run blocker. Gandy makes up for his liability against some edge rushers in pass blocking ability versus Jonas by his ability in running plays to get in space and engage opponents, something Jonas was terrible at.

 

Now as far as comparing Edwards and PW by stats, it's a false measure for run stoppers on the DLine. The measure is all in the film- does the DT hold his territory, forcing the runner to move laterally (losing momentum) and allow the linebackers to make the easier play? Does the DT attract at least 1.5 blockers on every play and reduce the ability for the offense to send blockers to the second level, again protecting your linebackers? The answer for PW in both these cases is YES and the answer for Ron Edwards is NO. So regardless of some tackles Edwards might have made 8 yards downfield, a place you'll rarely find a decent run-stopper making tackles, you can't with any credibility compare two completely different defensive tackles.

 

Watch ONE Vikes game and tell me how many times PW is knocked off balance- in fact watch ALL the Vikes games this year and then watch a single Bills game, keying on Edwards. Edwards will be knocked off balance more in one game than PW is likely to be over the complete season. And you can't run stuff when you're off-balance, it's that simple.

[Bill from NYC]

A glaring deficiency. Yet, they don't and haven't addressed it. I remember all the "woo hoo" over a power running game talk. Well, it takes more than a running back that could go down on any given play. WTF are we drafting a midget wide receiver for? With a rookie QB? OK, this is leaning to a line conversation, but I'm still going to try to keep the organization perspective. Are they so in love with the idea that a skill player may save the day that one can make do without the most simple of basics? You have to be able to block, tackle and cover if you want a Super Bowl. There are plenty of people out there that can catch or run the ball if you have those three first.

456995[/snapback]

 

I have been drilling these point home since my first post on TBD. I used to call Coach Dickerson and complain about this as well.

I contend that behind a strong OL, Lionel Gates could probably gain big yards. Why not? He is big, strong and fast.

Bill Parcells said recently that if he has (at draft time) a list of 50 receivers, he will only have a list of 25 Guards. Not Tackles BiB, GUARDS!

There are only SO many humans that can block in the NFL. Lots of people can run and catch. It is the responsibility of the management of the Buffalo Bills Football Team to provide blockers to the Bills.

TD did it on the steelers. Here, he does not.

Any thoughts as to why not?

[AKC]

TD did it on the steelers. Here, he does not.

Any thoughts as to why not?

457008[/snapback]

 

It seems clear to me-

 

 

1) He figured he could build a power running team around OLs with better run skills and lesser pass pro skills.

 

2) He also figured that with a QB who can play in a moving pocket offense he could mask the OLs pass pro deficiencies with play action plus the mobility of the QB.

 

3) Making these two work required he be right on the point he misjudged more than any other- that the D would give him the ball back regularly and never be run over.

 

But he failed to properly assess his talent in the interior of his DLine and when 3 doesn't work 2 is shot and 1 even becomes more difficult because in many games you'll be left throwing down the stretch.

 

And that's what will happen the rest of the season because we simply don't have the help on this roster to stop teams from running over our RDT spot. Hell, we don't even have the depth you'd like to play an effective 3-4 in the interior of our DLine.

[bleedinblue]

Now as far as comparing Edwards and PW by stats, it's a false measure for run stoppers on the DLine. The measure is all in the film- does the DT hold his territory, forcing the runner to move laterally (losing momentum) and allow the linebackers to make the easier play? Does the DT attract at least 1.5 blockers on every play and reduce the ability for the offense to send blockers to the second level, again protecting your linebackers? The answer for PW in both these cases is YES and the answer for Ron Edwards is NO. So regardless of some tackles Edwards might have made 8 yards downfield, a place you'll rarely find a decent run-stopper making tackles, you can't with any credibility compare two completely different defensive tackles.

 

Watch ONE Vikes game and tell me how many times PW is knocked off balance- in fact watch ALL the Vikes games this year and then watch a single Bills game, keying on Edwards. Edwards will be knocked off balance more in one game than PW is likely to be over the complete season. And you can't run stuff when you're off-balance, it's that simple.

457005[/snapback]

Plugging the middle and occupying blockers is Sam Adams job on this team, always was. Edwards and Big Pat virtually split time last season and Edwards had more tackles. Plus, face facts, Pat, great a player as he was is at the end of a great career. Minn has allowed 421 yards rushing, Buffalo 502. Minn has 6 sacks. Buffalo 7. There just isn't that significant of a drop off from losing Pat.

[Bill from NYC]

I'd call Jennings a wash regardless of stats because we're looking for a rushing O and he's an awful run blocker. Gandy makes up for his liability against some edge rushers in pass blocking ability versus Jonas by his ability in running plays to get in space and engage opponents, something Jonas was terrible at.

 

Now as far as comparing Edwards and PW by stats, it's a false measure for run stoppers on the DLine. The measure is all in the film- does the DT hold his territory, forcing the runner to move laterally (losing momentum) and allow the linebackers to make the easier play? Does the DT attract at least 1.5 blockers on every play and reduce the ability for the offense to send blockers to the second level, again protecting your linebackers? The answer for PW in both these cases is YES and the answer for Ron Edwards is NO. So regardless of some tackles Edwards might have made 8 yards downfield, a place you'll rarely find a decent run-stopper making tackles, you can't with any credibility compare two completely different defensive tackles.

 

Watch ONE Vikes game and tell me how many times PW is knocked off balance- in fact watch ALL the Vikes games this year and then watch a single Bills game, keying on Edwards. Edwards will be knocked off balance more in one game than PW is likely to be over the complete season. And you can't run stuff when you're off-balance, it's that simple.

457005[/snapback]

 

Why do you do this to me?

I HATE to be in a position to disagree with you, but here goes:

 

Gandy, due to his physique, may be more agile than JJ wrt downfield blocks, but Jennings is FAR better on quick hits because he is much stronger than Gandy.

I am thinking that a "smashmouth" team would rely more on quick hits; pancakes if you will, to provide a power runner such as WM room to develop a head of steam.

Really, Jennings did not get all of this cash because he is a so-so player. Gandy didn't get so little cash becuse he was a highly sought after LT.

Badolbilz predicted that Jennings would be one of the best LTs in the AFC this year. I thought that this was a bit much as well, but I don't have a good record when I disagree with you guys.

[Ghost of BiB]

I have been drilling these point home since my first post on TBD. I used to call Coach Dickerson and complain about this as well.

I contend that behind a strong OL, Lionel Gates could probably gain big yards. Why not? He is big, strong and fast.

Bill Parcells said recently that if he has (at draft time) a list of 50 receivers, he will only have a list of 25 Guards. Not Tackles BiB, GUARDS!

There are only SO many humans that can block in the NFL. Lots of people can run and catch. It is the responsibility of the management of the Buffalo Bills Football Team to provide blockers to the Bills.

TD did it on the steelers. Here, he does not.

Any thoughts as to why not?

457008[/snapback]

 

I'm not close enough to all the local media, insider knowledge and what not for an informed Bills opinion, that's why I'm asking. I am, on the other hand pretty close to systems where I see people get into a mindset, and form organizations to the point of agreeable personalities within those mindsets. Over a period of time, they become an institution that nobody questions because, by golly, that's how things are done.

 

You have an owner that, bless his heart, is getting pretty old and a management that may or may not be taking advantage of that.

 

We're frustrated as hell because of what we have, but I'm of the mind that nothing is going to change until you change the front office. I was willing to give them a pass tactically as I thought they might be up to something strategically. Which goes back to my original post. Fix it this year. You've had time. I'm reaching my ICE point. I'll give you guys (I know you read, also know you don't care) this year. Play with your money to make this team competitive on something other than cute and tricky draft moves and hiring decisions. I'm not seeing a lot of genious out there after this much time. San Francisco can give you a game and the Bengals are 3-0. Where are we? Last year and the year before and the year before that.

[GG]

I have been drilling these point home since my first post on TBD. I used to call Coach Dickerson and complain about this as well.

457008[/snapback]

 

To play the devil's advocate to your point - how many OLs that made the probowl rosters in 2004 and 2005 came out of drafts that were supervised by Donahoe as Bills' GM?

 

Perhaps the detail to building a successful line lies not with the draft choice, but with coaching and experience. Could this be why the OL hasn't seen a fall off in performance when you plugged in a "scrub" like Gandy for a "franchise" LT like Jennings? Is ignoring the OL mean that signing Villareal & Anderson don't count? And isn't it convenient to blast TD for his Mike Williams mistake, when you were among the loudest proponents of his drafting?

[Bill from NYC]

It seems clear to me-

1) He figured he could build a power running team around OLs with better run skills and lesser pass pro skills.

 

2) He also figured that with a QB who can play in a moving pocket offense he could mask the OLs pass pro deficiencies with play action plus the mobility of the QB.

 

3) Making these two work required he be right on the point he misjudged more than any other- that the D would give him the ball back regularly and never be run over.

 

But he failed to properly assess his talent in the interior of his DLine and when 3 doesn't work 2 is shot and 1 even becomes more difficult because in many games you'll be left throwing down the stretch.

 

And that's what will happen the rest of the season because we simply don't have the help on this roster to stop teams from running over our RDT spot. Hell, we don't even have the depth you'd like to play an effective 3-4 in the interior of our DLine.

457014[/snapback]

 

AKC, you are describing the Flutie Era to a tee! Do you see this?

We HAD a great defense and a mobile qb. It isn't enough; it just isn't. Jerry Ostroski and John Fina will not get you there; nor will Spriggs, Nails, Connaty, etc.

 

I contend that if PW was here and at the top of his game, Tre Teague would still suck.

Yes, the Bills must shore up production from the DT spot. No question. BUT, we had PW AND Big Ted in their primes and lost due to a soft, pansy ass offensive line, no?

[GG]

AKC, you are describing the Flutie Era to a tee! Do you see this?

We HAD a great defense and a mobile qb. It isn't enough; it just isn't. Jerry Ostroski and John Fina will not get you there; nor will Spriggs, Nails, Connaty, etc.

 

I contend that if PW was here and at the top of his game, Tre Teague would still suck.

Yes, the Bills must shore up production from the DT spot. No question. BUT, we had PW AND Big Ted in their primes and lost due to a soft, pansy ass offensive line, no?

457028[/snapback]

 

I am sorry, but this OL is nowhere near as bad as the late '90s OL.

[AKC]

Why do you do this to me?   

I HATE to be in a position to disagree with you, but here goes:

 

Gandy, due to his physique, may be more agile than JJ wrt downfield blocks, but Jennings is FAR better on quick hits because he is much stronger than Gandy.

I am thinking that a "smashmouth" team would rely more on quick hits; pancakes if you will, to provide a power runner such as WM room to develop a head of steam.

Really, Jennings did not get all of this cash because he is a so-so player. Gandy didn't get so little cash becuse he was a highly sought after LT.

Badolbilz predicted that Jennings would be one of the best LTs in the AFC this year. I thought that this was a bit much as well, but I don't have a good record when I disagree with you guys. 

457020[/snapback]

 

The running offense the Bills would like to run benefits big time by having players who can or will hustle to make blocks well outside their line spot. I don't remember Jennings more than 6 yards on any play in his career with us away from his LT spot. Gandy gets across the line completely in addition to up the field on other plays. He's a superior run blocker to JJ and but nowhere near as good in pass blocking. Gandy has given up a (1) sack this season Jonas is still clean. The big oney at LT is in Pass Pro, not run blocking.

[AKC]

AKC, you are describing the Flutie Era to a tee! Do you see this?

We HAD a great defense and a mobile qb. It isn't enough; it just isn't. Jerry Ostroski and John Fina will not get you there; nor will Spriggs, Nails, Connaty, etc.

 

I contend that if PW was here and at the top of his game, Tre Teague would still suck.

Yes, the Bills must shore up production from the DT spot. No question. BUT, we had PW AND Big Ted in their primes and lost due to a soft, pansy ass offensive line, no?

457028[/snapback]

 

There's more to that than simply the OLine. Flutie may have been one of the alltime winners in the regular season, loser against quality D's in the playoffs guys for no fault of his own (but maybe his mom's ;-). It was just too easy to scheme for him.

 

I'd ask you to look at the time the Pats gave Mudslide down the stretch Sunday- they're hardly playing with marquis linemen yet their scheme held it together long enough- once again- for by far the best player on their roster to kick another 3 point game winner.

[AKC]

There just isn't that significant of a drop off from losing Pat.

457019[/snapback]

 

Yeah, you're right. We'll surely end up #2 in rush defense this year again.

[Bill from NYC]

To play the devil's advocate to your point - how many OLs that made the probowl rosters in 2004 and 2005 came out of drafts that were supervised by Donahoe as Bills' GM?

 

Perhaps the detail to building a successful line lies not with the draft choice, but with coaching and experience.  Could this be why the OL hasn't seen a fall off in performance when you plugged in a "scrub" like Gandy for a "franchise" LT like Jennings?  Is ignoring the OL mean that signing Villareal & Anderson don't count?  And isn't it convenient to blast TD for his Mike Williams mistake, when you were among the loudest proponents of his drafting?

457025[/snapback]

 

Fair questions.

First, whether right or wrong, I was all for drafting McKinnie. "Draft McKinnie" was my signature for months, and ICE used to freak over it. I supported drafting MW as a fan, but never thought it smart nor conventional to give this kind of money to a RT.

CV was a great signing. Anderson? The jury is still out, wouldn't you say?

No fall off in performance? How can you tell? JP has thrown for poor yardage and no long balls, unless you are one who considers the 30 yard pass to Evans a "bomb."

JP is not playing well. Yes, he is young, but I contend that he would play better behind an offensive line with talent.

[cåblelady]

Neither are the Bills Organization.

456984[/snapback]

 

[Ghost of BiB]

457042[/snapback]

 

I don't think smiley posts should be counted towards totals, but I don't know how to fix it and don't care anyway.

[jdubs]

Come on my friend. Jennings was blocking for a qb that although I supported, could not move around so well. Also, at this point of the season in 04, was Willis in there?

Of course not. We had Travis Gump, who was sliding on his ass, missing blocks, dropping passes and NOT gaining yards on the ground. JJ was also playing next to a sub par to average LG, as he did for the entire season.

I am not thrilled by Anderson, don't get me wrong; but he supposedly does come with some credentials as compared to Smith and Tucker.

Jennings was given a multi-year contract as a UFA. This is how LTs are paid. Gandy was given comparible pennies and a sprinkle or 2 of McNally Dust.

There is no reason from where I sit to think that this will work, especially considering the supporting cast.

456914[/snapback]

 

I agree, this front office keeps trying to find garbage players and turn them into gold. You have the cap room just f*$cking use it already!

[cåblelady]

I don't think smiley posts should be counted towards totals, but I don't know how to fix it and don't care anyway.

457043[/snapback]

 

Phew. Good thing.

 

BTW.......I am totally enjoying these posts in this thread. Damn. You guys are good.

[Bill from NYC]

I don't think smiley posts should be counted towards totals, but I don't know how to fix it and don't care anyway.

457043[/snapback]

 

Now you are getting chesty with her when she smiles?

I think that this testosterone is directly related to your "secret formula" wrt the football pool. You know, the one where you won't tell us how you are picking all these winners!

Be advised, I am launching an investigation. I am going to use my skills and find out how you are doing this.