Dr.Z (SI) lists Eric Moulds in his Top 10

[Simon]

10. D Mason

9. E Moulds

8. Steve Smith

7. Marvin Harrison

6. Joe Horn

5. Hines Ward

4. Chad Johnson

3. Torry Holt

2. Randy Moss

1.  TO

 

Steve Smith is a burner who's quickly coming into his own. He runs good routes and has great hands. He's quickly climbing the ranks.  Joe Horn was the biggest omission on any of these lists. The guy is great, and never gets any respect, but he'll get it from me.  I'm not a huge fan of Harrison. Yeah he has a lot of stats, but I just don't think he's more a product of manning that anything else, thats why he gets pushed back on my list, but his stats keep him in the top 10.  Randy Moss doesn't beat out TO, maybe when he decides to play to his talent level sure, but for now they don't get any better then the man who "loves him some him".

451139[/snapback]

 

Whenever I consider these "top 10" lists, I always think about it like what would I do if I were building a team from scratch.

And as talented as they may be, neither Moss nor Owens would get a phone call when I was looking to pick somebody up to fill the two WR slots on my team.

[Kelly the Dog]

Whenever I consider these "top 10" lists, I always think about it like what would I do if I were building a team from scratch.

And as talented as they may be, neither Moss nor Owens would get a phone call when I was looking to pick somebody up to fill the two WR slots on my team.

451150[/snapback]

Well then you would have to leave off Moulds and Jimmy Smith and Mason at least, however good or great they are, as they are on their last good legs, which is why I don't think I would have them in my top ten right now. And I know a lot of people wouldn't but I would take TO in a heartbeat, and Moss behind him. I also think Boldin belongs on the list, and close between Moulds and Branch (who I think is highly underrated, the guy is always open and always catches it) at #10, and Steve Smith is as good as Mushin, IMO. Harrison and Chad Johnson are 3-4 for me. I would include Joe Horn and Andre Johnson as you did. Holt doesn't crack my top ten. I don't think he'd be great on grass or a crappy team, although it's very tough to keep him off.

 

1. TO

2. Moss

3. C. Johnson

4. Harrison

5. Ward

6. Boldin

7. Horn

8. A. Johnson

9. Smith

10. Moulds (but if he doesn't pick up his game very soon I would go with Branch)

[Kelly the Dog]

Whenever I consider these "top 10" lists, I always think about it like what would I do if I were building a team from scratch.

And as talented as they may be, neither Moss nor Owens would get a phone call when I was looking to pick somebody up to fill the two WR slots on my team.

451150[/snapback]

Well then you would have to leave off Moulds and Jimmy Smith and Mason at least, however good or great they are, as they are on their last good legs, which is why I don't think I would have them in my top ten right now. And I know a lot of people wouldn't but I would take TO in a heartbeat, and Moss behind him. I also think Boldin belongs on the list, and close between Moulds and Branch (who I think is highly underrated, the guy is always open and always catches it) at #10, and Steve Smith is as good as Mushin, IMO. Holt doesn't crack my top ten. I don't think he'd be great on grass or a crappy team, although it's very tough to keep him off.

 

1. TO

2. Moss

3. C. Johnson

4. Harrison

5. Ward

6. Boldin

7. Horn

8. A. Johnson

9. Steve Smith

10. Moulds (but if he doesn't pick up his game very soon I would go with Branch)

[Simon]

Well then you would have to leave off Moulds and Jimmy Smith and Mason at least, however good or great they are, as they are on their last good legs, which is why I don't think I would have them in my top ten right now. And I know a lot of people wouldn't but I would take TO in a heartbeat, and Moss behind him. I also think Boldin belongs on the list, and close between Moulds and Branch (who I think is highly underrated, the guy is always open and always catches it) at #10, and Steve Smith is as good as Mushin, IMO. Holt doesn't crack my top ten. I don't think he'd be great on grass or a crappy team, although it's very tough to keep him off.

 

It's hard to strongly disagree with any of that... but I shall endeavour to do so.

I think Smith and maybe Moulds should stick, as both of them are still beating two guys (Smith more consistently) and both of them also provide leadership that makes the rest of your team better. While you're correct in that they may be their "last" legs, you're also correct in that they're "good" legs.

I also think Muhsin belongs near the top. While he's always been good, teh last couple years he has taken his game to a whole 'nother level. At this point I really think he'd be one of the 2-3 guys I'd take to start my "team".

While the slight is exactly that, no mention of Hines Ward incites me to mention him, and in more than passing. I think he'd be the other guy I'd take on my team.

Both he and Muhsin have multiple assets on both sides of the chalk that I don't think the "big 2" can boast. While the "big 2" have multiple liabilities on both sides of the chalk, these of the type which Ward and Muhammed woudln't wish to boast.

It's harder to win when your "leaders"&"bestplayers" are chuckleheads who aren't always there for you, particularly late in games.

Cya

[Kelly the Dog]

It's hard to strongly disagree with any of that... but I shall endeavour to do so.

I think Smith and maybe Moulds should stick, as both of them are still beating two guys (Smith more consistently) and both of them also provide leadership that makes the rest of your team better. While you're correct in that they may be their "last" legs, you're also correct in that they're "good" legs.

I also think Muhsin belongs near the top. While he's always been good, teh last couple years he has taken his game to a whole 'nother level. At this point I really think he'd be one of the 2-3 guys I'd take to start my "team".

While the slight is exactly that, no mention of Hines Ward incites me to mention him, and in more than passing. I think he'd be the other guy I'd take on my team.

Both he and Muhsin have multiple assets on both sides of the chalk that I don't think the "big 2" can boast. While the "big 2" have multiple liabilities on both sides of the chalk, these of the type which Ward and Muhammed woudln't wish to boast.

It's harder to win when your "leaders"&"bestplayers" are chuckleheads who aren't always there for you, particularly late in games.

Cya

451160[/snapback]

Ward was #5 on my list. I am not sold on Mushin, but maybe I am wrong about him. I honestly havent seen a ton of him closely. I think TO is head and shoulders above everyone. He tries his ass off, he always produces, he blocks, he doesnt give up on routes, he breaks games open all the time. He can score from anywhere. He does so many more things than Hines Ward, and does all the things that Ward does, including block. You just shouldnt listen to him talk.

[Mile High]

Well then you would have to leave off Moulds and Jimmy Smith and Mason at least, however good or great they are, as they are on their last good legs, which is why I don't think I would have them in my top ten right now. And I know a lot of people wouldn't but I would take TO in a heartbeat, and Moss behind him. I also think Boldin belongs on the list, and close between Moulds and Branch (who I think is highly underrated, the guy is always open and always catches it) at #10, and Steve Smith is as good as Mushin, IMO.  Holt doesn't crack my top ten. I don't think he'd be great on grass or a crappy team, although it's very tough to keep him off.

 

1. TO

2. Moss

3. C. Johnson

4. Harrison

5. Ward

6. Boldin

7. Horn

8. A. Johnson

9. Steve Smith

10. Moulds (but if he doesn't pick up his game very soon I would go with Branch)

451156[/snapback]

Mine would go

 

1 Moss

2 TO

3 Harrsion

4 Ward

5 Johmson

6 Muhamad

7 Horn

8 Holt

8 Jimmy Smith

9 Mason

10 Steve Smith

 

Sorry E-Mo sorry.

[Mark VI]

Moulds is currently struggling to get seperation from the CB. I saw it in the pre-season and through the first 2 weeks. He's been known during his career to drop dozens of easy ones. I still like the guy but his supposed top 10 days are long gone.

 

Like KTFABD said, Dr. Z can be very nostalgic.

[R. Rich]

Mine would go

 

1 Moss

2 TO

3 Harrsion

4 Ward

5 Johmson

6 Muhamad

7 Horn

8 Holt

8 Jimmy Smith

9 Mason

10 Steve Smith

 

Sorry E-Mo sorry.

451178[/snapback]

 

 

Yours is closer to what I'd have than any of the other lists I've seen here. Then again, I don't take all the drama into consideration, so that's why Moss would be the top guy. Based on their ability and performance, here's who I'd have as my top 10:

 

1. Moss

2. Harrison

3. Owens

4. Ward (that's not because someone told me to rank him this high, either!)

5. Jimmy Smith (I have nothing but respect for what he's done, and continues to do)

6. Holt (Good hands, runs good routes, great speed)

7. Horn (as many have said, very underrated; wasted for years in KC)

8. Steve Smith (he makes some fantastic catches and will blow past defenders in the open field)

9. Rod Smith (if I'm going to choose a veteran player, sorry, but I take him over McCardell or Muhammad)

10. Chad Johnson (I feel this will be his breakout year, and he'll begin to move up the list rather quickly)

[Simon]

I think TO is head and shoulders above everyone. He tries his ass off, he always produces, he blocks, he doesnt give up on routes, he breaks games open all the time. He can score from anywhere. He does so many more things than Hines Ward, and does all the things that Ward does, including block. You just shouldnt listen to him talk.

If I agreed with all that he'd be at the top of my list too. But I don't think he always finishes his routes (although he's not as derelict as Moss in this) and I think there's a lot of situations and areas of the field where he just isn't effective. While Hines Ward may not get up the field as well as him, TOwens isn't as good as Ward on 3rddown, doesn't have anywhere near the caliber of hands, is more likely to disappear in the 4thqrtr and does not make his teammates better or carry them over rough patches like Hines does. While his quickstrike ability can sneak you back in games on occasion, Ward's ability to consistently take his game up a notch when needed and then sustain it there is a better weapon in the long run.

 

Moulds is currently struggling to get seperation from the CB. I saw it in the pre-season and through the first 2 weeks.

Not having had the chance to watch him live and see his complete game, I'll regrettably defer to your eyes on this one. On the caveat that I can still maintain the phantasy that he looks just about as good as he ever has.

 

Then again, I don't take all the drama into consideration, so that's why Moss would be the top guy.

I try to ignore (enjoy would be more accurate) the antics too, and actually have gotten a lot of kicks out of both his and T.O.'s escapades. But even though Moss is the most talented and gifted receiver I have ever set eyes on, his maddening inconsistency and frequent disinterest in playing a complete game put him in line behind some tougher and more dedicated recievers in my imaginary book.

Cya

[R. Rich]

I try to ignore (enjoy would be more accurate) the antics too, and actually have gotten a lot of kicks out of both his and T.O.'s escapades. But even though Moss is the most talented and gifted receiver I have ever set eyes on, his maddening inconsistency and frequent disinterest in playing a complete game put him in line behind some tougher and more dedicated recievers in my imaginary book.

Cya

451346[/snapback]

 

 

Maddening inconsistency? Wow. The guy had 49 catches for 767 yards (a 15.7 avg) and 13 TDs in an injury plagued season! You'd be hard pressed to get that kind of production out of most healthy WRs (especially the ratio of receptions to TDs). I do understand your point on the attitude though. I've said before that guys like Moss and TO in football are like Iverson is in basketball: they're poster boys for their leagues......except for what comes out of their mouths. Too bad; they waste all the good they do on the field w/ the garbage they spew.

[Simon]

I do understand your point on the attitude though. I've said before that guys like Moss and TO in football are like Iverson is in basketball: they're poster boys for their leagues......except for what comes out of their mouths. Too bad; they waste all the good they do on the field w/ the garbage they spew.

Actually my point on the attitude was that I really got a kick out of it;-)

 

Maddening inconsistency? Wow. The guy had 49 catches for 767 yards (a 15.7 avg) and 13 TDs in an injury plagued season!

I'm not just talking about catches though, I'm talking about the course of an entire game. (e.g. he had 5/130 and a touch in the opener but I don't think he played well at all). In addition to registering numbers I'm also talking about those times when he's asked to throw an important block late in a tight game and he jsut stands there while the corner goes by him and mkaes the tackle that forces the punt. Or when you try to get him the ball inside on 3rddown and he pulls up so he doesn't get creamed. He's definitely as explosive as anybody I've ever seen but he just disappears too often for my taste (e.g. according to NFL.com he had exactly 0 catches in the 4th qrtr of close games last year).

The cat is definitely fun to watch, but there's just a handful of other guys who bring enough to the table that I'd take them before him.

Cya

[34-78-83]

Maddening inconsistency?  Wow.  The guy had 49 catches for 767 yards (a 15.7 avg) and 13 TDs in an injury plagued season!  You'd be hard pressed to get that kind of production out of most healthy WRs (especially the ratio of receptions to TDs).  I do understand your point on the attitude though.  I've said before that guys like Moss and TO in football are like Iverson is in basketball:  they're poster boys for their leagues......except for what comes out of their mouths.  Too bad; they waste all the good they do on the field w/ the garbage they spew.

451352[/snapback]

 

Sure the numbers are always there for Moss, but if you haven't noticed the "maddening inconsistency" then you're simply not watching him much. His route running at times is absolutely awful. He'll short arm balls over the middle and jog through the end of routes when he isn't "feeling it". If his team is down he often mentally quits the game before it is even over. He is certainly a wonderful talent in this league but there are 5 or 6 guys I'd take over him to build my franchise with at WR.

[ganesh]

I will say, however, that there is no way Hines Ward is a better WR than either (Muhammad isn't either).  As much as I like and respect Ward, he just doesn't have the ability to stretch the field like either Moss or Owens. 

 

450937[/snapback]

 

The bottomline in the league is getting 1st downs and moving the chains.

Hines Ward does that to perfection.,....When a QB is in trouble and needs

a 1st down he goes to Ward and Ward is always there....Plus the excellent

downfield blocking he provides to both the run and passing game....

 

Stretching the field and making big plays might be good for sportcenter

highlights...but they don't win games....

[RuntheDamnBall]

look where he put moss and owens.

 

thats insain. no way is chad johnson better than eather of those 2 guys.

450799[/snapback]

Just because Moss and Owens are bigger loudmouths and you get 24-7 ESPN coverage on them doesn't make them better. At this stage of his career, I'd take Johnson. As good if not better, a team player and less headaches.

[Kelly the Dog]

Actually my point on the attitude was that I really got a kick out of it;-)

I'm not just talking about catches though, I'm talking about the course of an entire game. (e.g. he had 5/130 and a touch in the opener but I don't think he played well at all). In addition to registering numbers I'm also talking about those times when he's asked to throw an important block late in a tight game and he jsut stands there while the corner goes by him and mkaes the tackle that forces the punt. Or when you try to get him the ball inside on 3rddown and he pulls up so he doesn't get creamed. He's definitely as explosive as anybody I've ever seen but he just disappears too often for my taste (e.g. according to NFL.com he had exactly 0 catches in the 4th qrtr of close games last year).

The cat is definitely fun to watch, but there's just a handful of other guys who bring enough to the table that I'd take them before him.

Cya

451385[/snapback]

I understand your point, but I think because you like football so much, and you like the way certain players play with an intensity and passion that you watch it and care for it, that you overlook certain elements. Moss may not have had a great game in game one, but the single play he made for the touch was worth four first down catches on a drive for a guy like Hines Ward. On a mediocre pass that 90% of the time would be an incompletion or even interception, he just goes up and pops it up and takes it away and scores. And while sure, it's a team game and guys needed to block and a guy needed to throw it, that was as close to single-handedly scoring as you see. That's points on the board, and nearly the only points they scored. It's the equivalent of a cornerback making a great break on a ball and intercepting and running it back 80 yards for a TD. And not counting that play, he had 4 catches for 50 or 60 yards, which is a decent game, against the Super Bowl Champs, on the road, with your QB looking terrible. I don't like the way Moss loafs and doesn't always block and doesn't seem too interested when the pass isn't coming his way, which is why I rate TO higher.

[Simon]

Plus the excellent downfield blocking he(Ward) provides to both the run and passing game.

The thing I love most about Ward's blocking isn't just it's consistencty and effectiveness, but it's agressiveness and the way it affects so many defenders. The entire secondary and most of the 'backers have got to keep an eye on him all the time or they're liable to end up seeing the remainder of the gmae in that nauseating monochrome color. I think that his mere presence makes it harder for all those guys to focus entirely on their jobs and that is a major boon to an offense.

 

Moss may not have had a great game in game one, but the single play he made for the touch was worth four first down catches on a drive for a guy like Hines Ward. On a mediocre pass that 90% of the time would be an incompletion or even interception, he just goes up and pops it up and takes it away and scores. And while sure, it's a team game and guys needed to block and a guy needed to throw it, that was as close to single-handedly scoring as you see. That's points on the board, and nearly the only points they scored. It's the equivalent of a cornerback making a great break on a ball and intercepting and running it back 80 yards for a TD.

I agree with everything but the first and last sentence in that statement. The ability of both Moss and Owens to bust those big plays is the reason I have them as high as they are, w/o it they would be afterthoughts. But I don't agree that a big strike is as good as one of those drives we frequently see from Ward where he catches 6-7 balls then finds the endzone. Those sustained efforts wear down a D, give his own D a blow and gradually lift his team's game where it has a better chance of remaining (kinda like the old soup on the stove vs in the microwave debate of yesteryear:-).

I also think a corner going 80 yrds is a much bigger play because a)it involves a change of possession b)you just took points away from the other team c) it flips field position and d) while TD's are in a WR's job description, they are beyind a CB's.

Cya

[dave mcbride]

The thing I love most about Ward's blocking isn't just it's consistencty and effectiveness, but it's agressiveness and the way it affects so many defenders. The entire secondary and most of the 'backers have got to keep an eye on him all the time or they're liable to end up seeing the remainder of the gmae in that nauseating monochrome color. I think that his mere presence makes it harder for all those guys to focus entirely on their jobs and that is a major boon to an offense.

I agree with everything but the first and last sentence in that statement. The ability of both Moss and Owens to bust those big plays is the reason I have them as high as they are, w/o it they would be afterthoughts. But I don't agree that a big strike is as good as one of those drives we frequently see from Ward where he catches 6-7 balls then finds the endzone. Those sustained efforts wear down a D, give his own D a blow and gradually lift his team's game where it has a better chance of remaining (kinda like the old soup on the stove vs in the microwave debate of yesteryear:-).

I also think a corner going 80 yrds is a much bigger play because a)it involves a change of possession b)you just took points away from the other team c) it flips field position and d) while TD's are in a WR's job description, they are beyind a CB's.

Cya

451408[/snapback]

 

good points. however, it seems rather obvious to me that moss is the best receiver in the game, and perhaps the best player. just look what he did for minnesota's other receivers. and the team's running game. and daunte culpepper. now, look at what he's doing in oakland after two games (a team, by the way, which is losing for other reasons). the running game is a lot better than what it was last year already. look at that 60+ yard run by jordan the other night (called back by holding away from the play) -- you think moss didn't have something to do with that? the guy is simply incredible and makes a whole offense better. there is one reason and one reason only why minnesota's offense has gone into the tank this year -- the absence of randy moss. defenses can now double their other receivers and play the run tighter.

 

dr. z, my favorite football writer, will never agree because he doesn't like moss personally and moss isn't his kind of football player (guys like hines ward and moose muhammed) -- the sort of guy who blocks on running plays. i'll tell you though -- put moss on the bills this year, and jp would have 3 td passes so far.

 

as for WR blocking on running plays, that's got to be one of the most highly overrated attributes in the nfl. the best thing a receiver can do for a running back on a running play is to present a home run threat. moss of course does this -- his simple presence on the field takes a guy out of the box and opens up running lanes. blocking some useless cb away from the play usually has no impact on it anyway. would i prefer that he block better? sure. plus i do like hines ward. but moss is what he is -- a guy in a different league. and in any case the fact is that moss has always improved a team's running game, and that minnesota wass always at or near the top of the league in rushing ypc yds/game. not coincidentally, they're averaging 55 yds a game this year so far on the ground.

 

one last thing -- there's the little issue of production. over the years and excepting his injury last year (in which he missed all or large parts of 5 or 6 games), moss has been far more productive than guys like muhammed, moulds, and ward by a long ways. finally, in nine playoff games, he's averaged over 20 yds/catch and over a touchdown per game.

 

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/MossRa00.htm

[MDH]

The bottomline in the league is getting 1st downs and moving the chains.

Hines Ward does that to perfection.,....When a QB is in trouble and needs

a 1st down he goes to Ward and Ward is always there....Plus the excellent

downfield blocking he provides to both the run and passing game....

 

Stretching the field and making big plays might be good for sportcenter

highlights...but they don't win games....

451398[/snapback]

 

This is absolutely incorrect. If you are forced to march down field with 10+ play drives every time you are, more than likely, going to make a mistake. A dropped ball, a sack, a turnover. Moving the chains isn't always enough. Quick strikes aren't just for the highlight reel. They turn games around by shifting momentum and elimating the probablity of game changing mistakes. Show me a team that consistantly puts up big points and I guarantee they consistantly have big plays. Moving the chains is important, but if your team is incapable of hitting the big play you're not going to win many games. Granted, you're also not going to win many games if you can't sustain drives...both are important, but saying that big plays are only for Sportscenter is just wrong.

 

Anyway, if I had to make a list of the top 10 WRs in the league (I'm going on who I would take for this season, not who I would build a team around) it would look like this:

 

1) Harrison (for all those that argue its mostly Peyton, just check out how open the guy is when Manning hits him...thier is always separation)

2) C. Johnson

3) Owens

4) Randy Moss

5) J. Horn

6) C. Chambers (the guy would be a superstar in a decent offense)

7) Hines Ward

8) A. Johnson

9) Steve Smith

10) Torry Holt

[dave mcbride]

This is absolutely incorrect.  If you are forced to march down field with 10+ play drives every time you are, more than likely, going to make a mistake.  A dropped ball, a sack, a turnover.  Moving the chains isn't always enough.  Quick strikes aren't just for the highlight reel.  They turn games around by shifting momentum and elimating the probablity of game changing mistakes.  Show me a team that consistantly puts up big points and I guarantee they consistantly have big plays.  Moving the chains is important, but if your team is incapable of hitting the big play you're not going to win many games.  Granted, you're also not going to win many games if you can't sustain drives...both are important, but saying that big plays are only for Sportscenter is just wrong.

 

Anyway, if I had to make a list of the top 10 WRs in the league (I'm going on who I would take for this season, not who I would build a team around) it would look like this:

 

1) Harrison (for all those that argue its mostly Peyton, just check out how open the guy is when Manning hits him...thier is always separation)

2) C. Johnson

3) Owens

4) J. Horn

5) C. Chambers (the guy would be a superstar in a decent offense)

6) Hines Ward

7) Steve Smith

8) Torry Holt

9) Muhammad

10) Moulds or Mason (its a toss up between these two, I can't decide)

451485[/snapback]

 

how could anyone exclude moss? it's so willfully contrarian. moss is demonstrably better than all of these guys. and really, steve smith? he's more injury prone, less productive, and a worse citizen than moss. and chris chambers? productivity, baby.

[MDH]

how could anyone exclude moss? it's so willfully contrarian.  moss is demonstrably better than all of these guys. and really, steve smith? he's more injury prone, less productive, and a worse citizen than moss.  and chris chambers? productivity, baby.

451729[/snapback]

 

Actually, the exclusion of Moss wasn't willfully contrarian...it was an oversight. He was supposed to be slotted in there at 4. I also realized I forgot A. Johnson as well!