If blaming 1 player for the safety, it would be...

[Sig1Hunter]

I think he may be injured. His leg just doesn't look like it has the oomph it had last year.

445962[/snapback]

 

He was booming them 70 yards in the air, in warmups.

 

Also, Lindell hit a couple 55yarders in warmups with room to spare.

 

Of course, they were only warmups...

[ATBNG]

Yup - Bryson, Linton, & Sammy Morris were our RBs in 2000 if memory serves.

446384[/snapback]

 

Antowain was still around in 2000 as well - that was the year where he and Dougie finished with that "audition" game (against Seattle???), right?

[Bill from NYC]

doug flutie, whose final year with the bills was 2000, never played with travis henry, whose first season was 2001.

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That doesn't matter Dave. Please allow him to be unimpeded in making his non-sensical case that Travis could pass block.

[Campy]

Antowain was still around in 2000 as well - that was the year where he and Dougie finished with that "audition" game (against Seattle???), right?

447093[/snapback]

How quickly I forgot about him! Good catch.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

That doesn't matter Dave. Please allow him to be unimpeded in making his non-sensical case that Travis could pass block.

447134[/snapback]

 

I don't think anyone is trying to make a case that Henry was a good pass blocker because obviously he was not. I think claiming that he was is almost as non-sensical as claiming that McGahee is a good pass blocker because as we saw yesterday on the two plays in the endzone he is not.

 

Neither contributed to the Bills because of their blitz pick-ups but were heroes to many Bills fans because TH put up running numbers (augmented by some good receiving #s in a pass-happy Kevin Killdrive O) that got him to th Pro Bowl in 2002 and followed that up with some productive run yardage the next year and also showed some real improvements in the fumbles lost category.

 

In 2004 Henry clearly was a weenie and quit when WM took his job because Willis was flat out a better runner with better speed making him an outside threat and a tremendous stiff arm. Both his running yardage and even his blitz pick-up suffered last year and TD did a great job resisting the advice of fools who said to cut Henry for nothing and traded him for some value.

 

Both Henry and WM have shown the same young RB problems with blitz pick-up. Like Henry expect WM to improve in this area. Unlike Henry I don't expect him to roll over on his back and simply give up anytime soon.

[Bill from NYC]

I don't think anyone is trying to make a case that Henry was a good pass blocker because obviously he was not.  I think claiming that he was is almost as non-sensical as claiming that McGahee is a good pass blocker because as we saw yesterday on the two plays in the endzone he is not.

 

Neither contributed to the Bills because of their blitz pick-ups but were heroes to many Bills fans because TH put up running numbers (augmented by some good receiving #s in a pass-happy Kevin Killdrive O) that got him to th Pro Bowl in 2002 and followed that up with some productive run yardage the next year and also showed some real improvements in the fumbles lost category.

 

In 2004 Henry clearly was a weenie and quit when WM took his job because Willis was flat out a better runner with better speed making him an outside threat and a tremendous stiff arm. Both his running yardage and even his blitz pick-up suffered last year and TD did a great job resisting the advice of fools who said to cut Henry for nothing and traded him for some value.

 

Both Henry and WM have shown the same young RB problems with blitz pick-up. Like Henry expect WM to improve in this area. Unlike Henry I don't expect him to roll over on his back and simply give up anytime soon.

447406[/snapback]

 

Nonsense. Willis missed a block or 2 on sunday. So what? Travis did this every sunday, on virtually every pass attempt. With Travis starting, Bledsoe was sacked well over 100 times in 2 years. He continued to get pounded until Travis was benched, and the sacks were cut in less than half.

 

You can ignore the above. Or, you can post another abstract 15 page tirade telling us how getting this dumbass off the field had nothing to do with a dramatic improvement in protection for Bledsoe, who we know lacks pocket awareness at times, if not often.

 

Either way, your incorrect point is in vain, because Willis is bordering upon greatness. Oh, and Travis sucks, and he is thankfully gone.

[eSJayDee]

I just watched the play again, & I don't think it is apparent that McGahee was to blame.

He took the inside blitzer & although he didn't have a very effective block, he managed to screen the guy sufficiently to the left (w/ respect to the offense formation) that he was a non-factor.

This allowed JP to easily roll right. Unfortunately once he did that, there were 2 other guys coming from that area.

WM might have been to blame, but at least from our non-informed observations, based on the 'pick up the free guy inside-out' axiom, he adequately did his job.

 

Based on my opinion, It looks like JP had adequate time to throw from inside the pocket, finding a hot-receiver. Then again, I'm making that call w/ hindsight and knowing the result of what awaited him when he escaped the pocket.

[VABills]

I just watched the play again, & I don't think it is apparent that McGahee was to blame.

He took the inside blitzer & although he didn't have a very effective block, he managed to screen the guy sufficiently to the left (w/ respect to the offense formation) that he was a non-factor.

This allowed JP to easily roll right.  Unfortunately once he did that, there were 2 other guys coming from that area.

WM might have been to blame, but at least from our non-informed observations, based on the 'pick up the free guy inside-out' axiom, he adequately did his job. 

 

Based on my opinion, It looks like JP had adequate time to throw from inside the pocket, finding a hot-receiver.  Then again, I'm making that call w/ hindsight and knowing the result of what awaited him when he escaped the pocket.

449750[/snapback]

That's what I saw too, but decided to stop arguing with people who haven't a clue.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

I just watched the play again, & I don't think it is apparent that McGahee was to blame.

He took the inside blitzer & although he didn't have a very effective block, he managed to screen the guy sufficiently to the left (w/ respect to the offense formation) that he was a non-factor.

This allowed JP to easily roll right.  Unfortunately once he did that, there were 2 other guys coming from that area.

WM might have been to blame, but at least from our non-informed observations, based on the 'pick up the free guy inside-out' axiom, he adequately did his job. 

 

Based on my opinion, It looks like JP had adequate time to throw from inside the pocket, finding a hot-receiver.  Then again, I'm making that call w/ hindsight and knowing the result of what awaited him when he escaped the pocket.

449750[/snapback]

 

Darn, I thought when VABills admitted the errors of thinking after Simon and a couple of other folks also said they thought Willis essentially whiffed on the blitz pick-up that this horse was dead. However, since this horse is twitching again (your claim of JP easily rolling right is a twitch at best since its hard for me to see how someone running for life from the boarding house rush TB called on that play can be characterized at all as "easily."

 

Specifically:

 

1. You claim that WM blocked him sufficiently to the left.

 

Actually, the word block implies that he at least touched him and even that is not clear. He certainly "forced" him to go to the left, but since he quickly got past WM who at best "nudged" and probably just forced him to the left before he looped quickly past a lunging McGahee and chased JP to the right, I think you and those who claim he chipped the blitzer are giving WM more credit that he deserves for this "block" based on a look at the tape. Whiffed is a pretty strong word but it is certainly closer to the truth than the thought he blocked this player since that pretty strongly implies he engaged the rusher. I'd even have trouble calling WM a speed bump in terms of this blitzer as I am not even sure WM touched him.

 

2. You claim the blitzer was a non-factor.

 

It is certainly true that the blitzer's pursuit of JP was slowed as he was forced to go left to make WM whiff, but he quickly resumed his chase of JP who was avoiding the blitzer by going right. The player Willis failed to stop was not involved in tackling JP, but interesting;y he had enough time and there were two other TB guys closing in for the kill that this blitzer can be seem peeling off and actially defending the space to make it harder for JP to dump off a shiort pass to avoid the safety. Instead JP held onto it for a second longer before throwing it away across the sideline but by that point JP had already gone OB and it was a safety.

 

I think it is clear that this player had pretty free rein to choose where he could do the most damage despite the attempted WM block and it is possible by peeling off to cover the short pass and denying this option for JP it forced him to hang onto the ball and get called for going OB before he could throw it away. I'm not sure how big of a factor in the safety this player was but the WM block attempt was ineffective enough this pass rusher had time to consider his options and act on them and who knows how big of a factor he was but non-factor seems like wishful thinging.

 

3. I buy WM currectly trying to follow the take the inside guy axiom as you call it, but the keys parts of this are not only choose the inside guy but also TAKE him.

 

Can you really look at the tape and call the attempted WM block TAKING the blitzer?

 

As I said above, he forced the blitzer to go left to avoid the diving WM, but barely slowed down as he resumed pursuit right until he himself chose to bail as two other blitzers were closing in and instead cut off the passing options. I wish WM had taken the blitzer or at least engaged the blitzerso that the rusher was dealing with WM rather than deciding how best to get the sack done. WM did not TAKE the inside guy he was the non-factor here with his whiff.

 

Further, VABills above may consider folks who argue against his and your position as lacking knowledge but one thing I learned from another post in this thread is that IF WM had in fact TAKEN the inside blitzer effectively, he actually would have forced this rusher to the right creating a pocket for JP rather than whiffing on the hit but forcing the blitzer left. It seems to make sense that if the Bills were building a pocket as on most other passes and WM had been the least little bit effective then JP would have not been forced to roll "easily" to his right and into two other TB blitzers and instead would have stepped up into the pocket and potentially thrown the ball downfield.

 

All in all, i think this is the hierarchy in effective zone blitz pick-ups:

 

1. Pancake the guy- occaisionally the blocking RB will so effectively stymie the blitzer he simply pancakes the guy with a great block. This rarely happens since the blitzer has so much momentum but I have seen this high quality blitz pick-up a few times.

 

2. Submarines the blitzer- more likely if the end result is that the blitzer goes down it is because the blitz pick-up guy goes underneath the blizer and uses the rushers own momentum to flip him. I have seem this dramatic move a number of times and often on blitz pick-up you see this. It is a riskier move however, because on occaision I have seen the blitzer simply hurdle the blocker and kill the QB. Another example of this was seen on the 1st play in this safety series where the RB (probably McGahee but his number was blocked makes an ineffective effort to cut block Grer Squires of TB. Squires in fact slowed but not picked-up by the ineffective WM block attempt. The result was that Squires tipped the JP pass into the air but fortunately it simply fell incomplete.

 

3. Engages the blitzer- This is the classic and a good blitz pick-up guy at least locks up the blitzer so that the pocket is maintained and the QB can step up and get the pass off. In addition by engaging the blizer it keeps his arms bisy and stops him from blocking the pass.

 

4. At least chips the blitzer so that he has to take the long way around the pocket. McGahee did at least try to do this so in essence he whiffed on the blitzer. From review it appear that either the set-up was designed poorly by TC as there was too much space and a natural lane to the QB beyween WM and the right end of the line, or TC designed the set-up so this rushing avenue was cut off and WM simply line up a step to far to the right or a step too far back so he had to lunge fifully as he attempted to cut off the rusher.

 

WM failed to even execute the lowest level of an effective block on the blitzsr.

 

Actually thanks for continuing to beat this dead horse as I got a chance to think this through in a fuller way and unlike VABills who thinks some posters here do not have a clue I am able to thank the poster above for pointing out that if JP had made his block effectively he would forced the inside rusher to his right to maintain a pocket,

 

Its observations like this one which make me love TSW.

[eSJayDee]

In response to FFS post of 6:58. (I'll avoid quoting it to save save bandwidth )

 

Going off memory this time, you have a point that WM certainly didn't 'engage' that blitzer much and in fact it might have been TBs strategy to have that blitzer 'peel off' to the left, thereby covering any short pass, scramble or screen in that direction.

I still contend that at the time that WM had to commit, that rusher would have been priority #1. His actions eliminated the immediate threat of that guy coming up the middle.

I'll concede that it certainly would have been better had he have flattened him, but largely due to the direction the defender chose to go, that wasn't easy.

I think based on what we know, you can't say WM was the primary cause of the safety & as far as I'm concerned, it looks to me that he carried out his assignment as well as can be expected.

[Greybeard]

It is rather interesting to see what others see and in fact what you see yourself when you go back and look at a play. I had looked at the endzone view so many times, I had forgotten there was a side view.

 

From the side view it becomes apparent that McGahee would see two blitzers coming at him and would in fact have to make a quick decision on who to take. He was in fact between the closest blitzer and the QB. Also note that the blitzer had to rush to the inside to avoid WM as if he cut the other way, he would be slowing down and be in the way of the guy behind him.

 

Also from the side view, it is when JP sees the 2nd blitzer that he pulls down the ball and begins to run. It is this second guy who makes the play work. I believe even if WM flattened his guy, the play outcome would have been the same.

 

This was one very well designed and executed play. At the snap the entire defensive line moves to their right, the offensive lines left. This moves the OL to their left, which opens up the area for the blitzers to run into.

[PatPatPatSack]

It is rather interesting to see what others see and in fact what you see yourself when you go back and look at a play.  I had looked at the endzone view so many times, I had forgotten there was a side view.

 

From the side view it becomes apparent that McGahee would see two blitzers coming at him and would in fact have to make a quick decision on who to take.  He was in fact between the closest blitzer and the QB.  Also note that the blitzer had to rush to the inside to avoid WM as if he cut the other way, he would be slowing down and be in the way of the guy behind him. 

 

Also from the side view, it is when  JP sees the 2nd blitzer that he pulls down the ball and begins to run.  It is this second guy who makes the play work.  I believe even if WM flattened his guy, the play outcome would have been the same.

 

This was one very well designed and executed play.  At the snap the entire defensive  line moves to their right, the offensive lines left.  This moves the OL to their left, which opens up the area for the blitzers to run into.

449948[/snapback]

 

 

On a play like that, 1 yard line, rare and dangerous situation, why not bring in 1 or 2 guys like Peters to block in the backfield and also be eligible for the dump off pass. I am sure there are special teamers who can block in space better than McGahee?

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

It is rather interesting to see what others see and in fact what you see yourself when you go back and look at a play.  I had looked at the endzone view so many times, I had forgotten there was a side view.

 

From the side view it becomes apparent that McGahee would see two blitzers coming at him and would in fact have to make a quick decision on who to take.  He was in fact between the closest blitzer and the QB.  Also note that the blitzer had to rush to the inside to avoid WM as if he cut the other way, he would be slowing down and be in the way of the guy behind him. 

 

Also from the side view, it is when  JP sees the 2nd blitzer that he pulls down the ball and begins to run.  It is this second guy who makes the play work.  I believe even if WM flattened his guy, the play outcome would have been the same.

 

This was one very well designed and executed play.  At the snap the entire defensive  line moves to their right, the offensive lines left.  This moves the OL to their left, which opens up the area for the blitzers to run into.

449948[/snapback]

 

Actually since hindsight is 20/20 it is clear to avoid the outcome where the Bucs sprinted to a 2-0 lead and never looked back that JP should have done something different like call a TO because the TB design and execution was great and the ills design and execution was faulty.

 

To some extent, this argument is over how well did WM execute.

 

On one side are folks like me who feel from what they saw that WM did not execute well at all:

 

1. He clearly did not take down or even engage the blitzer and at best he redirected him as he needed to go left to avoid WM.

2. The rushed did contruibute to the play because even though he did not tackle JP and was not the closest player to him when he was forced OB, this blitzer was part of a several man TB pursuit which forced him out and this blitzer had the time and ability to even peel off and occupy space so JP needed to throw long to dump the ball.

 

Others however,

 

1. Feel JP did "force" the blitzer to take an inside rush toward the QB and thus executed as he was supposed to terming his effort a "chip" block which allowed JP to "easily" role to his right (where he was run OB for the safety which killed us, the quotation marks are mine and I add them since I think this view is so off the mark but that is just my commercial).

 

I think it is impossible to say for certain which view is correct because we simply do not know the blocking scheme called for this play by the Bills or what assignment or duty he had on this play (for example if he was actually the intended receiver on this play then engaging the blocker is the last thing he should do).

 

I think the real big deal here is the question of how the heck did JP not see that we were overmatched on that side by even two blitzers and actually there were 3 guys with pressure on JP. In retrospect, if you want to blame anybody who could have done something different it was JP.

 

The design of our play and protection was so flawed when matched up against their design and blitz that it is hard to see any appropriate call but to call a TO and start all over when the line-up became clear.

 

Still, looking only at the issue of execution, it seems pretty far fetched to me that anyone can feel that WM did what he was supposed to do well, He simply did not effectively block the blitzer. If all he was supposed to do was make sure the blitzer did not take a direct line to the QB then yes he accinplished this task by throwing his body to the ground in front of the blitzer. The defender had to go around him (in essence this is what he did- I do not think people argue about that, just whether that was efffective execution of his role or not) to pursue the QB.

 

I just can't see that being good execution and all he was supposed to do on that play. This come after he also threw an ineffective block on 1st down leading to a pass block.

 

Its hard for me to conlcude anything but WM simply sucked on blitz pick-up this series.

 

This does not mean at all that we bench him or do anything but rely on his running ability this Sunday. We just have to realize that this youngster is learning.

[Matt in KC]

This may be stupid, but have the Bills run any plays this year that were QB roll-outs to the left? (I only remember JPL rolling to the right.)

 

I haven't rewatched this play, but it looked to me like a very good D call, anticipating the roll-out to the right where JPL could throw the ball away if needed, and not get callled for grounding (=safety).

 

Unfortuantely, the Bucs committed strongly to the blitz that cut JP off. more than anything, this is the story of this play.

 

Yes, WM or Shelton could have blocked better; yes JP probably could have gotten out of the endzone or escaped somewhere to the left or throw the ball to MW's feet; but mostly what happened was the right D call against a risky O-playcall.