TKO is the best linebacker the Bills ever had

[Kelly the Dog]

Thanks for bringing in those stats that really show London's superiority- Takeo started right out of the chute and actually played in the tackle-friendly environment at ILB in a 3-4 scheme, a benfit London has never had. London also played almost nothing but ST in his first season and was situational in his second, not starting in either season as far as I remember. This menas for all intents and purposes it has taken Takeo two NFL seasons more to accrue a number of tackles similar to London.

 

And the sack stat may be even more revealing- most experts would give the WLB spot a far, far greater opportunity for building up fat sack stats than coming from the middle.

441455[/snapback]

IMO it's far, far easier to rack up tackle stats from the MLB in the Bills defense with Fat Sam right in front than outside where TKO plays. Fletcher can get to virtually all plays from where he is, with no blockers in front of him. TKO can get to two-thirds at most. And your early years analysis is thin at best. London clearly played a lot at LB in his second year unless you think he made 66 solo tackles on ST.

[Kelly the Dog]

I just want to see any of you jokers come right out in public and say that if you were GM or coach of the Bills and you HAD to choose one LB, all things considered, that you would surely sign London Fletcher and release Takeo Spikes.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

I just want to see any of you jokers come right out in public and say that if you were GM or coach of the Bills and you HAD to choose one LB, all things considered, that you would surely sign London Fletcher and release Takeo Spikes.

441780[/snapback]

 

No prob. If I am a GM, my job is to build a team and cap hit issues are a big part of building a team, but I am happy to come right out in public and say that a debatable question of who where do Spikes and Fletcher fall as to who is a better LB is actually much less debatable for a GM confronted with a signing or cutting decision as you lay out.

 

Fletcher at a $3.8 million cap hit compared to Spikes at a $5.4 million cap hit (according to Clumpy\s cap page at Billszone.com) is a much better bang for the buck.

 

The Bills would have a horrible time trying to replace an outstanding player like Spikes, but it would be harder to replace your lead tackler, defensive signal caller, a team captain and critical ST player and have less cap room to do this.

 

I think the answer to your question is obvious but it is the reverse of what you seem to think it would be.

[AKC]

IMO it's far, far easier to rack up tackle stats from the MLB in the Bills defense with Fat Sam right in front than outside where TKO plays. Fletcher can get to virtually all plays from where he is, with no blockers in front of him. TKO can get to two-thirds at most. And your early years analysis is thin at best. London clearly played a lot at LB in his second year unless you think he made 66 solo tackles on ST. 

441771[/snapback]

 

I believe he was in their nickle and dime packages that second season while Takeo was playing ILB in the Cincy 3-4 as a starter.

 

The fact that London has more tackle ops at MLB is clear from how many more tackles he gets every year in our system than Takeo.

 

For your question below- yeah, I'd prefer to begin building my D with LF because there's no better bite for the buck on our team, which would then allow me to spend my big money in the interior DLine where I believe all the best contemporary NFL defenses begin- not out at WLB.

[ajflutie]

There was Mike Stratton, Stew Barber, Harry Jacobs in the AFL days; John Skorpan (but the D at the time was real do-do);Jim Haslett and Shane Nelson (Bermuda Triangle fame); my Mom loved Eugene Marve and Lucius Sanford; Daryl Talley was heart and sole during ther SB run; Shane Conlan was prttty darned good; Bryce Paup and Chris Speilman were Pro-Bowlers, Free Agents, but pro-bowlers.

 

441689[/snapback]

 

Stew Barber was an OT, you mean John Tracey

[AKC]

it's not as if spikes was a higher profile player either -- fletcher played in 2 super bowls while spikes toiled with the bengals.

441620[/snapback]

 

I'll have to concede to you naming Carson the superior player, I simply didn't see enough of the Giants over those years to make a judgement- my memory is clouded by the highlight films from the era that of course were ripe with LT clips since he played the Sizzle position.

 

I appreciate your acknowledgement of which of our great LBs a Super Bowl winning D was built around. That's a very good point and I hope you don't mind if I use it again.

[Kelly the Dog]

No prob. If I am a GM, my job is to build a team and cap hit issues are a big part of building a team, but I am happy to come right out in public and say that a debatable question of who where do Spikes and Fletcher fall as to who is a better LB is actually much less debatable for a GM confronted with a signing or cutting decision as you lay out.

 

Fletcher at a $3.8 million cap hit compared to Spikes at a $5.4 million cap hit (according to Clumpy\s cap page at Billszone.com) is a much better bang for the buck.

 

The Bills would have a horrible time trying to replace an outstanding player like Spikes, but it would be harder to replace your lead tackler, defensive signal caller, a team captain and critical ST player and have less cap room to do this.

 

I think the answer to your question is obvious but it is the reverse of what you seem to think it would be.

441814[/snapback]

No, I expected you to say Fletcher. And I can see why you love Fletcher. He's all over the place, never stops running his mouth and puts up a lot of relatively meaningless stats.

[34-78-83]

I'll have to concede to you naming Carson the superior player, I simply didn't see enough of the Giants over those years to make a judgement- my memory is clouded by the highlight films from the era that of course were ripe with LT clips since he played the Sizzle position.

 

I appreciate your acknowledgement of which of our great LBs a Super Bowl winning D was built around. That's a very good point and I hope you don't mind if I use it again.

441827[/snapback]

 

I could be wrong, but I don't think he was saying that Carson was the superior player

[dave mcbride]

I could be wrong, but I don't think he was saying that Carson was the superior player 

441839[/snapback]

you're not wrong. akc is just being akc (i.e., a tenacious smartass).

[dave mcbride]

I'll have to concede to you naming Carson the superior player, I simply didn't see enough of the Giants over those years to make a judgement- my memory is clouded by the highlight films from the era that of course were ripe with LT clips since he played the Sizzle position.

 

I appreciate your acknowledgement of which of our great LBs a Super Bowl winning D was built around. That's a very good point and I hope you don't mind if I use it again.

441827[/snapback]

 

oh yeah - i forgot about that great super bowl winning d in st. louis. silly me.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

No, I expected you to say Fletcher. And I can see why you love Fletcher. He's all over the place, never stops running his mouth and puts up a lot of relatively meaningless stats.

441833[/snapback]

 

 

While I appreciate your focus on me and my longwinded (photoned?) posts, the important thing (and fatr more interesting than you or me) thing in this discussion are the players and what a GM should do to build a team.

 

I think the case is this:

 

1. Most posters realize that it is foolish in reality to separate the stats of Spikes or Fletcher individually from the work of the other teammate because both the tackle leading totals of Fletcher or the highlight reel efforts of Spikes are intrinsically related to the efforts of the other player.

 

2. There us no need for reality to stop us though from ranting in the TSW world about which one is a better LB but the fact is which ever side you come down on in this popularity contest it is fortunately for Bills fans a close call.

 

3. The introduction of the GM issue adds the salary cap reality constraint to this debate and what is a close call fantasy debate about which player is better actually is more easily resolved as a bang for the buck question as the market value of Spikes bouyed by the highlight reel and Pro Bowl selection outweighs the signal calling we never here and ST performance which is undervalued generally by the average fan..

 

I'm noy sure where you are coming from at all with your introduction of the GM issue into this assessment. it does not help the pro-Spikes popularity contest assessment at all.

[BRH]

No, I expected you to say Fletcher. And I can see why you love Fletcher. He's all over the place, never stops running his mouth and puts up a lot of relatively meaningless stats.

441833[/snapback]

:)

[Lori]

I just want to say:

 

THIS is what the Wall is about, IMO (except, of course, for the great OT threads).  Both sides are making compelling arguments and there is, for the most part, respect for the others' opinions.

 

When Kelly the Dog, formerly Dik Smub, AKC and other respected TSW members are chiming in...well...all I can say is BEAUTIFUL!

 

441495[/snapback]

A-friggin'-men. Great thread. GREAT (bleep)ing thread, especially the Stratton takes (for us young'uns who remember him only from a couple of highlight clips).

 

The Fletch Faithful make a solid argument, but I think I'm leaning toward siding with KTD on this one - while LF quietly takes care of the heavy lifting and I'm damn glad to have him on "my" team, Spikes is the guy changing the numbers on the scoreboard.

 

IMO, Biscuit is the only one close - remember John Elway walking up to the line of scrimmage that first game, seeing #55 ready to come after him at 100mph, and immediately calling a timeout? I think TKO is approaching that level.

[The Dean]

IMO, Biscuit is the only one close - remember John Elway walking up to the line of scrimmage that first game, seeing #55 ready to come after him at 100mph, and immediately calling a timeout? I think TKO is approaching that level.

442040[/snapback]

 

Sure do and it was a thing of beauty. BTW, the thread got even stronger when you weighed in.

 

 

How's it goin', Lo?

[cåblelady]

Sure do and it was a thing of beauty.  BTW, the thread got even stronger when you weighed in.

 

442049[/snapback]

 

Hi -b.

[The Dean]

Hi -b. 

442054[/snapback]

 

Hey Cablebabe. How's everythang? BTW, does your system carry Current TV?

 

(Some of you bastards are going to try to make that last comment sound dirty...I know you guys.)

[AKC]

2. There us no need for reality to stop us though from ranting in the TSW world about which one is a better LB but the fact is which ever side you come down on in this popularity contest it is fortunately for Bills fans a close call.

 

441904[/snapback]

 

Regardless of the degree of devil's advocacy to anything said in this thread, there may actually be a right side of the discussion- I'd say it goes something like this:

 

"Any caliber gap between London Fletcher and Takeo Spikes is a tiny fraction of that assumed by the average Bill's fan."

[Fencesitter]

One of the finest games I ever saw a Bills linebacker play was by Damien Covington. His injury agains the Broncos cut way to short a career that could have had his name as part of this thread. Rest in Peace Mr. Covington.

[Guest BackInDaDay]

My $0.02 on the Fletcher/TKO debate...

 

Switch their teams from a few years ago.

Do you think the Rams' D would have been as soft with Spikes?

Do you think Fletcher would still be a Bengal?

 

My answers are no and yes.

[Adam]

We have had a few excellent ones over the years, but TKO has a combination of size, speed, skills, athleticism, playmaking ability, production and star quality that IMO is unmatched, and I have been watching the Bills since the mid 60s.

 

He kills people, he's as good on the run or the pass, he's consistent, he has remarkable hands for INTs and picking up fumbles, he can be a terror on blitzes, he plays all downs and has the speed to be all over the field, he's good fundamentally, he's smart, he never lets up, he rarely if ever has a bad game, he rarely misses tackles or opportunities, he never misses a game, he's respected and known around the league as a stud, he scores touchdowns, he's made it to the Pro Bowl and he makes spectacular highlight reel hits and plays. And he comes across as a great guy. We really have never had that total package of consistent stellar, spectacular play.

440133[/snapback]

 

I hope you dont renegotiate his contract, or we'll lose Clements