TKO is the best linebacker the Bills ever had

[Yankeedawg]

Stratton. Tough as nails against the run and one of the best ever in pass coverage.

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Stratton played with Harry Jacobs and the late John Tracy to form one of the most feared linebacking corps in Bills history.

[Chalkie Gerzowski]

Jim Cheyunski

 

 

[macdaddy]

Tom Cousineau and Walt Patulski were the two best in my eyes.

[Chalkie Gerzowski]

Tom Cousineau and Walt Patulski were the two best in my eyes.

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Team them up with either Cheyunski or Bo Cornell and that is the best trio in team history.

 

 

[clayboy54]

Stratton played with Harry Jacobs and the late John Tracy to form one of the most feared linebacking corps in Bills history.

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That is absolutely correct! Jacobs was the brains of the entire championship defense, at least on the field. No disrespect intended toward Joe Collier. Harry was a true student of the game in a time where he made all the defensive calls on the field. His on field play was aided by DTs Dunaway and McDole, so he was always able to roam. Sideline to sideline play was not the norm for the time, and much of the credit of establishing that kind of play from a MLB should go to Jacobs.

 

The heart and sole of the LB corps was Mike Stratton, though. Pound for pound, he may have been the most solid hitter in Bills history. Somebody earlier wrote that TKO "kills" people on the field. Well, in 1965 Stratton really did kill KC fullback Mac Lee Hill. Sure he died later in a Buffalo hospital, but he died as a result of Mike Stratton's viscious but clean shot. And, as previously stated, The Keith Lincoln "hit heard round the world" will live on forever. And, these were not isolated instances. Stratton played this way - play-in and play-out - for years. Plus, Mike was a monster dropping back in pass coverage in a day in which that style was not as common. He became an accomplished pass defender against offenses the likes of Sid Gilman's San Diego Chargers, which revolutionized football and pioneered the modern passing game.

 

Today, neither of these guys would compete on the field with physical specimens like Takeo Spikes, London Fletcher, et al. But in their day they were every bit the player and perhaps more so the innovators.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

You're telling me that if you had to choose one linebacker for the Bills, you would choose Fletcher over Spikes? I dig Fletch, and think he's a tremendous competitor and player but he's not the player Spikes is. Spikes is steak and sizzle.

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Actually I answer this having taken this question seriously and done a little researxch (I can;t find the Bengals record for most tackles by a player in one season and if anyone can this number would help).

 

My conclusion is that given the choice of picking one LB between Spikes and Fletcher I would have to choose Fletcher.

 

My rationale is that I know one player cannot make the difference for a team. Neither Fletcher with in his first year with the Bills could make our D a good one with little help (mates like the ubiquitous Eddie Robinson at OLB, Chidi Ahanatou at LDE and Coy Wire starting at SS made this D a drag on the team even with a record setting performance by Fletcher getting more tackles than any other Bill ever.

 

However, Spikes being virtually on his own could not turn the sow's ear of the Bengals into a silk purse either so to some extent picking one LB is a fools errand.

 

However, though the loss of Spikes and his great skills would be tough, I think it would even be tougher to replace:

 

1. The leading tackler on the team year in and year out,

 

2. The prime signal caller on a D which has been one of the best in the NFL the last two years.

 

3. A cllear ST contributor as the short kickoff returner who does not fumble the ball despite he is not a ball handler in normal use and training and who is one of the lead blockers in a return game which cleared the way for McGee to read their blocks and return enough kicks for TDs that he made the Pro Bowl,

 

4. A D captain who always seem to know what is going on and what needs to be done in a game and despite the fact his main failing is that he sometimes is over the top mentally under his inspired leadership the D has excelled and even TKO bowed to him remaining the captain,

 

TKO is great but I would choose Fletcher over him if you gave me one guy to pick, Despite his great physical skills I do not think that Spikes could pull off the multi-faceted excellence Fletcher does.

 

Spikes is better at getting INTs and one could make the case of him being more of a playmaker but I see little objective indication that TKO is a better LB for the Bills which was the lead premise for this thread.

 

TKO is simply not the best LB in the NFL because he is not even the best LB on the Bills.

[Kelly the Dog]

Actually I answer this having taken this question seriously and done a little researxch (I can;t find the Bengals record for most tackles by a player in one season and if anyone can this number would help).

 

My conclusion is that given the choice of picking one LB between Spikes and Fletcher I would have to choose Fletcher.

 

My rationale is that I know one player cannot make the difference for a team. Neither Fletcher with in his first year with the Bills could make our D a good one with little help (mates like the ubiquitous Eddie Robinson at OLB, Chidi Ahanatou at LDE and Coy Wire starting at SS made this D a drag on the team even with a record setting performance by Fletcher getting more tackles than any other Bill ever.

 

However, Spikes being virtually on his own could not turn the sow's ear of the Bengals into a silk purse either so to some extent picking  one LB is a fools errand.

 

However, though the loss of Spikes and his great skills would be tough, I think it would even be tougher to replace:

 

1. The leading tackler on the team year in and year out,

 

2. The prime signal caller on a D which has been one of the best in the NFL the last two years.

 

3. A cllear ST contributor as the short kickoff returner who does not fumble the ball despite he is not a ball handler in normal use and training and who is one of the lead blockers in a return game which cleared the way for McGee to read their blocks and return enough kicks for TDs that he made the Pro Bowl,

 

4. A D captain who always seem to know what is going on and what needs to be done in a game and despite the fact his main failing is that he sometimes is over the top mentally under his inspired leadership the D has excelled and even TKO bowed to him remaining the captain,

 

TKO is great but I would choose Fletcher over him if you gave me one guy to pick, Despite his great physical skills I do not think that Spikes could pull off the multi-faceted excellence Fletcher does.

 

Spikes is better at getting INTs and one could make the case of him being more of a playmaker but I see little objective indication that TKO is a better LB for the Bills which was the lead premise for this thread.

 

TKO is simply not the best LB in the NFL because he is not even the best LB on the Bills.

441066[/snapback]

In virtually the same amount of games over their career, Fletcher has 568 tackles and 222 assists in 112 games. Spikes has 584 tackles and 213 assists in 113 games. Playing middle linebacker you should have more tackles than an outside LB. And if you put TKO in the middle, I guarantee he would have as many or more tackles than Fletcher. But TKO does the other things better, and is a playmaker where Fletcher is not. The KR handling the ball is just nonsense. Fletcher calls the signals because that is the MLB's job not because he is a smarter or better player. That is also nonsense.

 

TKO has a better nose for the ball and has exceptional hands. He has one less sack (21.5 -20.5), twice as many interceptions (12-6), has scored touchdowns where Fletcher has never scored (3-0), has many more passes defended (41-26), more fumbled forced (10-9) and three times more fumbles recovered (15-5). I am not trying to belittle Fletcher but TKO does it all at an extraordinary level. That is the "multi-facted excellence"

 

http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/player...=4539&Submit=Go

 

http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/player...=4278&Submit=Go

[ajflutie]

you guys picking an all time defense should know that sestak was a DT not a DE.

[dave mcbride]

We have had a few excellent ones over the years, but TKO has a combination of size, speed, skills, athleticism, playmaking ability, production and star quality that IMO is unmatched, and I have been watching the Bills since the mid 60s.

 

He kills people, he's as good on the run or the pass, he's consistent, he has remarkable hands for INTs and picking up fumbles, he can be a terror on blitzes, he plays all downs and has the speed to be all over the field, he's good fundamentally, he's smart, he never lets up, he rarely if ever has a bad game, he rarely misses tackles or opportunities, he never misses a game, he's respected and known around the league as a stud, he scores touchdowns, he's made it to the Pro Bowl and he makes spectacular highlight reel hits and plays. And he comes across as a great guy. We really have never had that total package of consistent stellar, spectacular play.

440133[/snapback]

 

2nd best, in my opinion. it's easy to forget how phenomenal bennett was for a 4-5 year stretch from about 1987-91. he was great against the run and pass, and a phenomenal rusher when asked to do it. he also forced a ton of fumbles. also, the bills had the #1 defense overall in 1980 and 1982; shane nelson had something to do with that.

[dave mcbride]

Actually I answer this having taken this question seriously and done a little researxch (I can;t find the Bengals record for most tackles by a player in one season and if anyone can this number would help).

 

My conclusion is that given the choice of picking one LB between Spikes and Fletcher I would have to choose Fletcher.

 

My rationale is that I know one player cannot make the difference for a team. Neither Fletcher with in his first year with the Bills could make our D a good one with little help (mates like the ubiquitous Eddie Robinson at OLB, Chidi Ahanatou at LDE and Coy Wire starting at SS made this D a drag on the team even with a record setting performance by Fletcher getting more tackles than any other Bill ever.

 

However, Spikes being virtually on his own could not turn the sow's ear of the Bengals into a silk purse either so to some extent picking  one LB is a fools errand.

 

However, though the loss of Spikes and his great skills would be tough, I think it would even be tougher to replace:

 

1. The leading tackler on the team year in and year out,

 

2. The prime signal caller on a D which has been one of the best in the NFL the last two years.

 

3. A cllear ST contributor as the short kickoff returner who does not fumble the ball despite he is not a ball handler in normal use and training and who is one of the lead blockers in a return game which cleared the way for McGee to read their blocks and return enough kicks for TDs that he made the Pro Bowl,

 

4. A D captain who always seem to know what is going on and what needs to be done in a game and despite the fact his main failing is that he sometimes is over the top mentally under his inspired leadership the D has excelled and even TKO bowed to him remaining the captain,

 

TKO is great but I would choose Fletcher over him if you gave me one guy to pick, Despite his great physical skills I do not think that Spikes could pull off the multi-faceted excellence Fletcher does.

 

Spikes is better at getting INTs and one could make the case of him being more of a playmaker but I see little objective indication that TKO is a better LB for the Bills which was the lead premise for this thread.

 

TKO is simply not the best LB in the NFL because he is not even the best LB on the Bills.

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this is sheer sophistry. anyone with sense can see that spikes is more of a difference maker than fletcher, and is a guy you have to gameplan for. there is perhaps no more overrated stat in the nfl than tackles. just as in the nba, even the worst teams score 80 points a game. invariably, a guy on that team will have good scoring stats, but that doesn't mean he's good. rather, it just proves that *someone* has to score the points. same goes for tackles. a defense will invariably have 60-70 tackles per game, no matter how poorly or well they play. someone's gotta make the tackles. fletcher makes a lot of them, as he did in 2000 with the rams, who had an absolutely terrible defense. i'm not saying he's not a good player, but it's kinda like saying that mark maddox was better than bennett in 1993 because he had more tackles.

[BRH]

you guys picking an all time defense should know that sestak was a DT not a DE.

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A DT in a 4-3 that I'd be happy to have playing DE in my 3-4.

[dave mcbride]

2nd best, in my opinion. it's easy to forget how phenomenal bennett was for a 4-5 year stretch from about 1987-91.  he was great against the run and pass, and a phenomenal rusher when asked to do it.  he also forced a ton of fumbles.  also, the bills had the #1 defense overall in 1980 and 1982; shane nelson had something to do with that.

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ps - bennett was afc defensive player of the year in 1991. and he deserved it - smith was out most of the year and bennett carried that defense.

[34-78-83]

In the case of Fletch vs. Spikes, I'm pretty confident that if their roles were switched Spikes would do all the things Fletch does but Fletch couldn't do all the things that Spikes does at WLB. He is more athletic, just as fast, stronger, has better hands, as good of a tackler, and a harder hitter than Fletch.

 

With this being said, I've always felt that Fletcher was the most under-rated player on the Bills D. He is a model of consistency and has great feel for his position. He is a pro-bowl type player even though he hasn't made it there as a Bill.

[Hardy Pyle]

Holocek - man, that dude was good.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

this is sheer sophistry. anyone with sense can see that spikes is more of a difference maker than fletcher, and is a guy you have to gameplan for. there is perhaps no more overrated stat in the nfl than tackles. just as in the nba, even the worst teams score 80 points a game. invariably, a guy on that team will have good scoring stats, but that doesn't mean he's good. rather, it just proves that *someone* has to score the points.  same goes for tackles.  a defense will invariably have 60-70 tackles per game, no matter how poorly or well they play. someone's gotta make the tackles.  fletcher makes a lot of them, as he did in 2000 with the rams, who had an absolutely terrible defense.  i'm not saying he's not a good player, but it's kinda like saying that mark maddox was better than bennett in 1993 because he had more tackles.

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I think that all of us are reduced tio sophistry when we make what is essentially a flase comparison between the performance of two players who do what they do so well because they are both playing together and doing their jobs well.

 

I agree with the point folks are making that Spikes is more of a playmaker than Fletcher and his ability to turn his INTs into TDs is extraordinary and is performance which is a step above what Fletcher produces. However, giving Spikes sole kudos for this production while giving the constant reliable work Fletcher does playing with Spikes no reciognition whatsoever is the sophistry here.

 

It is simply the ability which Fletcher has shown to watch the middle, play sideline to sideline and pick up the trash play after play as reflected (not proved but reflected or indicated) by his team leading tackle numbers as long as he has been a Bills which allows Spikes to freelance comfortably and make plays like he does at an extraordinary rate and level.

 

The items which set Fletcher a part in my mind and actually rise above mere sophistry (though i agree much of it is firmly grounded in opinion and neither you, I or any poster is on the inside and truly knows more than what we see with our unpaid eyes) is that he also has excelled for the Bills in roles in which Spikes is not even on the field or Fletcher has extra duties.

 

Specifically:

 

1. It is amusing that KTD says both that he is respects and is not badmouthing Fletcher and then he reduces the D playcalling he does to some rote simple act that any MLB does. One of the most fun parts of watching a Bills game is to watch the chess match going on between a good QB and Fletcher. Even a novice such as I can see the "dance" play out as an opposing QB approaches the line and surveys the D and from his body language as he yells signals and the shift in the offensive set-up he seems to be audibling to a new play. Fletcher often even more rapidly because time is ticking by as we move to a snap seems to be yelling and the Bills D also shifts to an alignment which seems to match the moves of the D.

 

Individual reads become a key as the ball is snapped and it does not matter what the D captain is yelling because people are playing now and a player like Posey or Denney is making a read on whether it is a run or a pass and he is either closing in or dropping back.

 

Some of this is pre-determined by the call Fletcher has made (fior example Sam Adams may have the rush assignment regardless and Edwards job is to move laterally and cover the run regardless but a lot of this is based on individual reads and the Bills are good because they all see the same things and make the same reads, attack and pressure the ball and cover for each other when necessary, but it all starts with Fletcher and this is a separate and initiated task by Fletcher separate from what Spikes is doing.

 

It also seems contradictory that a poster would invest in the sophistry of praising Fletcher somewhat but then dismiss his role on ST in which Spikes ain't even on the field. Like it or not, Fletcher was second on the Bills last year in kick returns and handled the ball almost at a double digit number of times. He did not fumble as would not be unexpected for a non-skill guy. When he did not return the ball, his job was to make blocks and how someone can dismiss his effectiveness and contribution in this role when McGee did so well on returns is also beyond me and beyond football common sense.

 

Look, I didn;t frame this thread with question of who is the best LB the Bills ever had. This question is where the sophistry stems from and lies because it asks the answerer to divide the play of two LBs playing together as though they can be truly separately judged. they really can't.

 

All I am saying is that for the few items which really are separate tasks such ST work where Spikes is not on the field or playcalling duties which Fletcher has but Spikes does not we see tremendous production that I think one needs to credit Spikes for. It is silly to really claim to compare the two since the hallmark of both their games is that they work well together. However, if one insists by posing the question as it is posed then I think one has too acknowledge that Fletcher deserves credit for both the stuff he does with Spikes and also some tremendous production he has done without him or based on his employing skills beyond their playing extremely well together.

 

If you force me to choose one (and i do mean force) make mine Fletcher, the best LB on this team!

[AKC]

just as in the nba, even the worst teams score 80 points a game. invariably, a guy on that team will have good scoring stats, but that doesn't mean he's good.

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You've failed to follow your analogy through properly. What we're talking about is a team who averages 140 points a night, not 80.

 

You're attempting to diminish stats like "average points per game in the NBA" or "average tackles per season in the NFL" while others may choose those as some of the best measures of talent.

 

Clearly most fans of the NFL are highlight films and quarterback sluts and you can quantify this by the jerseys on their backs at any game or sports bar. FFS has chosen ways other than "number of times you're shown on NFL Primetime" as his measure for "greatest" player. I second his logic.

[AKC]

I'd say the fundamental purpose of a defender is to get the ball back to the offense with the best field position possible (scoring if at all possible).  That means, for example, knocking a ball down (or even intercepting the ball) if it's on the way to a receiver is a higher priority than waiting for the receiver to catch it and then tackling him.

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If your measure is the outcome versus the act I'd think it would only be fair to consider plays which turn the ball over to the offense, whether they be INTs, FRs or tackles on third resulting in a kick and tackles that stop a 4th down attempt and maybe even first down stuffs that force the opponent into passing situations, effectively cutting the playbook in half. I'd guess those numbers would heavily favor London.

[Campy]

Am I the only one who believes that neither TKO or Fletch would be nearly as effective without the other?

 

They are both difference makers alone, but they need each other. It'd be like Biscuit without Bruce in front of him. They were both talented, but together they're greater than the sum of the parts.

[AKC]

In virtually the same amount of games over their career, Fletcher has 568 tackles and 222 assists in 112 games. Spikes has 584 tackles and 213 assists in 113 games. Playing middle linebacker you should have more tackles than an outside LB. And if you put TKO in the middle, I guarantee he would have as many or more tackles than Fletcher. But TKO does the other things better, and is a playmaker where Fletcher is not. The KR handling the ball is just nonsense. Fletcher calls the signals because that is the MLB's job not because he is a smarter or better player. That is also nonsense.

 

 

http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/player...=4539&Submit=Go

 

http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/player...=4278&Submit=Go

441070[/snapback]

 

Thanks for bringing in those stats that really show London's superiority- Takeo started right out of the chute and actually played in the tackle-friendly environment at ILB in a 3-4 scheme, a benfit London has never had. London also played almost nothing but ST in his first season and was situational in his second, not starting in either season as far as I remember. This menas for all intents and purposes it has taken Takeo two NFL seasons more to accrue a number of tackles similar to London.

 

And the sack stat may be even more revealing- most experts would give the WLB spot a far, far greater opportunity for building up fat sack stats than coming from the middle.

[VABills]

And this is the all-time defense I'd go to war with:

 

DE:  Bruce Smith, Tom Sestak

NT:  Ted Washington

OLB:  Takeo Spikes, Cornelius Bennett

ILB:  Shane Conlan, Chris Spielman

CB:  Nate Clements, Butch Byrd

SS:  Lawyer Milloy

FS:  Troy Vincent

 

That's right, I want four guys from RIGHT NOW on my all-time team.  That's how good this D is.

440198[/snapback]

You never saw James play did you?