Evildoer General MUST HATE FREEDOM

[blzrul]

Court-martial the traitor

 

Excerpt:

 

Lt. Gen. Steven Blum, chief of the National Guard Bureau, said that "arguably" a day or so of response time was lost due to the absence of the Mississippi National Guard's 155th Infantry Brigade and Louisiana's 256th Infantry Brigade, each with thousands of troops in Iraq.

 

"Had that brigade been at home and not in Iraq, their expertise and capabilities could have been brought to bear," said Blum.

 

Blum said that to replace those units' command and control equipment, he dispatched personnel from Guard division headquarters from Kansas and Minnesota shortly after the storm struck.

 

(The word "arguably" is the wiggle room and expect when all y'all heads are done exploding you'll do just that.)

[SilverNRed]

Court-martial the traitor

 

Excerpt:

 

Lt. Gen. Steven Blum, chief of the National Guard Bureau, said that "arguably" a day or so of response time was lost due to the absence of the Mississippi National Guard's 155th Infantry Brigade and Louisiana's 256th Infantry Brigade, each with thousands of troops in Iraq.

 

"Had that brigade been at home and not in Iraq, their expertise and capabilities could have been brought to bear," said Blum.

 

Blum said that to replace those units' command and control equipment, he dispatched personnel from Guard division headquarters from Kansas and Minnesota shortly after the storm struck.

 

(The word "arguably" is the wiggle room and expect when all y'all heads are done exploding you'll do just that.)

435504[/snapback]

Respond to all the people in the city who had already drowned as a result of having no means of getting out because there was no plan in place or leadership to do just that?

 

Yeah, great.

 

I don't understand why "response time" is the point that people keep emphasizing when basically no response could undo the damage that was already done by not having proper levees in place and having no plan from the mayor or governor for evacuating the city.

 

Oh well.

[UConn James]

Respond to all the people in the city who had already drowned as a result of having no means of getting out because there was no plan in place or leadership to do just that?

 

Yeah, great. 

 

I don't understand why "response time" is the point that people keep emphasizing when basically no response could undo the damage that was already done by not having proper levees in place and having no plan from the mayor or governor for evacuating the city.

 

Oh well.

435515[/snapback]

 

Wow, the great, all-knowing SnR says with confidence that everybody drowned. No one was at the other end of water consumption and died of dehydration from three days of being in 90*-plus, humid weather. Officials don't even know how many people died yet, much less what they died of, but I'd say a lot of them came after the flooding.

 

Back in the real world, and from a man who actually knows a little more than you about the situation, a day or more of response time by the NG would have made a difference. Keep spewing that the local officials are the ones to be blaming, as if culpability is a worthwhile thing to be doing right now, nevermind its accuracy w/o all the facts.

 

People here always spout about local entities being the best people to determine what needs to be done, and in this case it showed how limited any one place's resources are. The local people officials are comparable to a good samaritan motorist stopping at an accident scene and there's people with their backs broken. They could only do so much.

[jimshiz]

Keep spewing that the local officials are the ones to be blaming, as if culpability is a worthwhile thing to be doing right now, nevermind its accuracy w/o all the facts.

435634[/snapback]

 

Are you saying this to "both sides"? I agree that now is not the time to "blame" anybody. There really isn't any prejudices behind the slowness of support. There really isn't any lack of support. But, "one side" sure is spewing out a lot of blame; it is possible that the "other side" is simply pointing out other possibilities to defend themselves from the totally ridiculous things being said right now.

[Mickey]

Respond to all the people in the city who had already drowned as a result of having no means of getting out because there was no plan in place or leadership to do just that?

 

Yeah, great. 

 

I don't understand why "response time" is the point that people keep emphasizing when basically no response could undo the damage that was already done by not having proper levees in place and having no plan from the mayor or governor for evacuating the city.

 

Oh well.

435515[/snapback]

We need to stop saying that the state had no plan. They actually had a plan. It may not have been a good one nor one that was executed properly but they had one. I believe also that there plan was submitted for approval/review to the feds.

If you would like to review and offere criticisms of that plan, here they are: State Emergency Operations Plan

 

We will have to see where the facts lead but at this point, I think it is a reasonable concern that what happened was that the first responders were themselves incapacitated by the storm. I highly doubt that on their own they could have evacuated that many people that quickly even if they hadn't but add in their own loss of capabilities due to the storm with the unprecedented task of having to evacuate a megatropolis on the eve of a cat 5 hurricane and it is easy to see things going to hell. The forces at the disposal of the feds of course were not located, for the most part, in the effected zone and thus, in theory, should have had their capabilities intact as the storm hit.

[Wacka]

Everybody is focusing on NO. Most of the buildings are still standing.

 

It is MUCH worse in Mississippi. I caught a few minutes of I think Dateline last night. There WAS a town on the coast in Mississippi of 7000 peple. They were going around with the mayor surveying the damage. There was not a SINGLE building left intact. The mayor and city govt were in the local sewage plant wich had the roof ripped off (The walls are still intact).THe city hall and the post office are concrete slabs scoured clean. All the city records with the sewage, power, etc. maps are gone. He said 26 families stayed to ride out the storm. He assumes they all died. They showed a bush that 6 firemen held on to the top of for 6 hours after the firehouse was destroyed. He pointed out a large field with piles of rubble that were no higher than 6 ft. He said it WAS a condo complex. He said the water is running again, although you can't drink it and there is no place to take a shower in town.

 

There was no looting or National Guard presence. People were coming back to check out the rubble that used to be their house and were thanking the mayor for telling them to get out.

 

THe press is focusing too much on NO it wsa much worse elsewhere.

[SilverNRed]

Wow, the great, all-knowing SnR says with confidence that everybody drowned. No one was at the other end of water consumption and died of dehydration from three days of being in 90*-plus, humid weather. Officials don't even know how many people died yet, much less what they died of, but I'd say a lot of them came after the flooding.

435634[/snapback]

Nice try. I definitely didn't say or imply that "no one" died from dehydration, etc. in the wake of the hurricane.

 

What I am saying is that the response wasn't the critical step in saving people's lives. How long does it take to drown? Maybe a minute? So a faster response would have saved exactly no one who stayed in the city and drowned. And even if the administration gave a tone deaf response to the hurricane initially, the response has been fast by hurricane standards and the scale of this disaster is unprecedented anyway. You can argue that the response should have been faster in a post 9/11 world (which is a valid point) but putting all the emphasis on the response is pretty much just a means of putting all the emphasis on Bush.

[PastaJoe]

You can argue that the response should have been faster in a post 9/11 world (which is a valid point) but putting all the emphasis on the response is pretty much just a means of putting all the emphasis on Bush.

435756[/snapback]

 

Which is where it should be. After 4 years and billions of dollars spent on Homeland Security, there were still people without food or water for 5 days. The reporters could get in, but the military couldn't? They couldn't even airlift a couple of platoons to the Convention center to provide a parameter of control and security, and then start offloading supplies in an orderly manner, for 5 days? Too bad there weren't Arabian horses there, the response would have been much faster.

[SilverNRed]

Which is where it should be.  After 4 years and billions of dollars spent on Homeland Security, there were still people without food or water for 5 days. The reporters could get in, but the military couldn't?  They couldn't even airlift a couple of platoons to the Convention center to provide a parameter of control and security, and then start offloading supplies in an orderly manner, for 5 days?  Too bad there weren't Arabian horses there, the response would have been much faster.

435759[/snapback]

So in your eyes it's a bigger deal that there were people forced to live in poor conditions for several days than it is that thousands of people drowned because there was not a proper evacuation of the city and the levees were not sufficient. They bus poor people to the polls on election day but they can't do it when they're in mortal danger?

[Taro T]

Which is where it should be.  After 4 years and billions of dollars spent on Homeland Security, there were still people without food or water for 5 days.  The reporters could get in, but the military couldn't?  They couldn't even airlift a couple of platoons to the Convention center to provide a parameter of control and security, and then start offloading supplies in an orderly manner, for 5 days?  Too bad there weren't Arabian horses there, the response would have been much faster.

435759[/snapback]

Didn't the Red Cross try to bring food and water to the Superdome and was told by LOHSEP to NOT bring food and water to the Superdome? Isn't the Red Cross one of the agencies that FEMA relies on to help with that portion of typical relief efforts? If the people you thought WERE bringing food and water AREN'T, your response might be a little slower than otherwise hoped for.

 

Dave.

[VABills]

That's interesting, considering Arkansas NG was the first one on scene and took control first, not the two states you mention. Good thing this general knows who's in his state.

[KRC]

Didn't the Red Cross try to bring food and water to the Superdome and was told by LOHSEP to NOT bring food and water to the Superdome?  Isn't the Red Cross one of the agencies that FEMA relies on to help with that portion of typical relief efforts?  If the people you thought WERE bringing food and water AREN'T, your response might be a little slower than otherwise hoped for.

 

Dave.

435944[/snapback]

 

Shhhh...It is Bush's fault.

[VABills]

Didn't the Red Cross try to bring food and water to the Superdome and was told by LOHSEP to NOT bring food and water to the Superdome?  Isn't the Red Cross one of the agencies that FEMA relies on to help with that portion of typical relief efforts?  If the people you thought WERE bringing food and water AREN'T, your response might be a little slower than otherwise hoped for.

 

Dave.

435944[/snapback]

Yeah but the Red Cross it seems was also charging for bringing food and water, it seems.

[Ghost of BiB]

Wow, the great, all-knowing SnR says with confidence that everybody drowned. No one was at the other end of water consumption and died of dehydration from three days of being in 90*-plus, humid weather. Officials don't even know how many people died yet, much less what they died of, but I'd say a lot of them came after the flooding.

 

Back in the real world, and from a man who actually knows a little more than you about the situation, a day or more of response time by the NG would have made a difference. Keep spewing that the local officials are the ones to be blaming, as if culpability is a worthwhile thing to be doing right now, nevermind its accuracy w/o all the facts.

 

People here always spout about local entities being the best people to determine what needs to be done, and in this case it showed how limited any one place's resources are. The local people officials are comparable to a good samaritan motorist stopping at an accident scene and there's people with their backs broken. They could only do so much.

435634[/snapback]

 

That's sort of a disservice to the first responders. Think of them more as the EMT's at the accident site. Their job is to rescue and stabilize, so that the trauma ward (Federal) can do the heavy lifting. Most cities first responders are very well trained, very professional, very courageous and dedicated. They know they are the first line of defense, and fully expect to be on their own for 48 hours without help. This thing was just beyond the imaginations of a lot of people. When we designed the responses for a friggen NUCLEAR attack in a major city, it was never expected that the entire local response system would be essentially wiped out. Nor, would that be likely. Federal response plans are designed to augment and relieve the local responders, and gear up for intermediate and long term recovery.

 

I'm not making any excuses for anyone, it's just the way it is. Had everything gone perfectly, it's probable more could have been on site in 24-36 hours. I'm sure that the lessons learned from this will address pre-positioning during warnings, and mix of forces to respond.

[UConn James]

That's sort of a disservice to the first responders. Think of them more as the EMT's at the accident site. Their job is to rescue and stabilize, so that the trauma ward (Federal) can do the heavy lifting. Most cities first responders are very well trained, very professional, very courageous and dedicated. They know they are the first line of defense, and fully expect to be on their own for 48 hours without help. This thing was just beyond the imaginations of a lot of people. When we designed the responses for a friggen NUCLEAR attack in a major city, it was never expected that the entire local response system would be essentially wiped out. Nor, would that be likely. Federal response plans are designed to augment and relieve the local responders, and gear up for intermediate and long term recovery.

 

I'm not making any excuses for anyone, it's just the way it is. Had everything gone perfectly, it's probable more could have been on site in 24-36 hours. I'm sure that the lessons learned from this will address pre-positioning during warnings, and mix of forces to respond.

436325[/snapback]

 

We essentially agree. The "good samaritan" comparison came out of the fact that the local officials were so hamstrung by changing roles (law enforcement, no, S&R, no, law enforcement, no....) and lack of resources. Add in the inability to communicate effectively and that a number of police officers were quitting, and it's remarkable they got done what they did. Even the best "plan" in the world, as CTM has been bemoaning, would have crumbled. The feds passing blame comes off as inaccurate and a slap in the face. The fact that many NG units were in Iraq did hurt the response. Feel however you want about that and people are entitled to say that Iraq is more important than our own citizens and having relief resources at the ready. Doesn't necessarily make them right. Absent an adequate/full local response, the fed agencies have to pick up the slack and sort out culpability later. They didn't do that. Was glad to see Gen. Honure at the helm. I'm sure a Congressional commission will sort out all of the issues and what went wrong. I would think a lot of it will come down on Mike Brown and FEMA's brain drain, and the situational problems that all compounded.

 

An old office wall joke I've got:

 

NOTICE

The objective of all dedicated company employees should be to thoroughly analyze all situations, anticipate all problems prior to their occurance, have answers for these problems, and move swiftly to solve these problems when called upon.

 

HOWEVER...

When you are up to your ass in alligators, it is sometimes difficult to remind yourself that your primary objective was to drain the swamp.

[Ghost of BiB]

There's people using the alligators to beat out the fires right now. Everyone would like to see every contingency planned for, but there's a point where one just can't "plan" for eveything. There's just too many situations and too many scenarios. I won't put too much stock in any congressionals, they tend to become pretty partisan and political. The best analysis will probably come from everyone's internal lessons learned exercises. Contrary to what probably 90% here think, they tend to be pretty self critical and accurate, reason being - it's bad to make mistakes, but it's worse to make the same twice. I have about 20 written pages of "lessons learned" material I took down as it happened over the last week. Not all of it by any means is bad. Probably one of the biggest problem I saw from my perspective was communications. Not that there weren't any, more like there was too much. There were some unique things going on, and the "battle cells" (just a phrase) plus the ops centers simply did not have enough people to digest the info coming in (or verifying, sometimes it was contradictory) in the time required. Some of the situation reports from the field were as much as 50 pages long, and were received as little as 30 minutes before a scheduled VTC with Washington. By the end of the week, most other agencies surged people in to help with that, and additional military specialists were called in both AD and activated guard. One has to understand that for command and control, you need a different type of individual than you do going door to door, or handing out rations. It's very specialized work, you can't just stick "anybody" in a chair. You also have to assimilate them into the system - work stations, phones, accounts, etc.. Their parent agencies have to verify their level of access for security reasons, which in itself is sometimes difficult because different agencies have different security clearance requirements that don't necessarily match each other. For those of us who do interagency work on a regular basis, it's worked out but it takes time for someone cold to be cross checked. I know a lot of it sounds like red tape and whatever - and there is too much of it, but some of it is necessary. It's not a good idea to be able to just waive or drop many federal satutes because you want to, many of them are there by law to PROTECT citizens from too much government from above. I'm sure that is a very controversial thought in the emotion of all this, but it's the way things are. Something else that I learned is that there isn't necessarily a good understanding at the senior leader level in state and local government as to where and what federal authorities and limitations are. No doubt that people at the action level do, but at the pace and the confusion of the first 48 hours I don't know that they got heard.

 

Anyhow, I'm not trying to make excuses when I say that there is just so much more to this than many people realize. I'm sure there is truth to LA NG units being deployed to Iraq being a factor. I also don't know what that brigade could have brought to the table in the conditions that resulted. I'm not saying anything other than I don't know. The area needed specialized response assets for SAR in the first 24 hours. Especially aviation support. A mechanized infantry unit isn't going to be able to accomplish much in 10 feet of water. An MP unit could be very, very useful for the security (that should not have been necessary if people all acted human) situations that surfaced. One still has to be able to deploy them and support them.

 

Well, I'm going FFS again. Anyone wants to comment here, I'll respond.

[Adam]

Respond to all the people in the city who had already drowned as a result of having no means of getting out because there was no plan in place or leadership to do just that?

 

Yeah, great. 

 

I don't understand why "response time" is the point that people keep emphasizing when basically no response could undo the damage that was already done by not having proper levees in place and having no plan from the mayor or governor for evacuating the city.

 

Oh well.

435515[/snapback]

 

If the response was any quicker, the Moore-ons would be bringing up Haliburton again, and claiming everything should be bid out. The way the minority, whiich actually is too small to be acknowledged (even though they are the loudest) likes to politicize everything. That is the type of person that we in this country should disregard

[UConn James]

Some of the situation reports from the field were as much as 50 pages long, and were received as little as 30 minutes before a scheduled VTC with Washington.

 

This is why everyone should immediately stop hiring English majors. I hate people who spend 3 pages blathering about something that should have taken 2 sentences. Note: I'm not referencing your post.

 

It's not a good idea to be able to just waive or drop many federal satutes because you want to, many of them are there by law to PROTECT citizens from too much government from above. I'm sure that is a very controversial thought in the emotion of all this, but it's the way things are. Something else that I learned is that there isn't necessarily a good understanding at the senior leader level in state and local government as to where and what federal authorities and limitations are. No doubt that people at the action level do, but at the pace and the confusion of the first 48 hours I don't know that they got heard.

436712[/snapback]

 

I heard today on one of the talking head shows that the posse comitatus act needs some refining, but that if the feds had wanted to, they could have declared an insurrection --- and seeing some of what was happening, I don't think anyone would have argued that. The NG and military in general suffer a lot from the legacy of how their counterparts are used in other parts of the world and mental flashes of Kent State, etc. Going forward, there needs to be some wiggle room for a quick, minimal red-tape response in situations of catastrophic natural disaster, etc.

[Adam]

This is why everyone should immediately stop hiring English majors. I hate people who spend 3 pages blathering about something that should have taken 2 sentences. Note: I'm not referencing your post.

I heard today on one of the talking head shows that the posse comitatus act needs some refining, but if the feds had wanted to, they could have declared an insurrection and seeing some of what was happening, I don't think anyone would have argued that. The NG and military in general suffer a lot from the legacy of incidents and mental flashes of Kent State. Going forward, there needs to be some wiggle room for a quick response in situations of catastrophic natural disaster, etc.

436893[/snapback]

 

I dont mean to sound ignorant, but what exactly is the comitatus act?

[VABills]

I dont mean to sound ignorant, but what exactly is the comitatus act?

436897[/snapback]

posse comitatus is an act that prevent the US military from performing policeing duties on US soil, other then military bases.