Some Facts on the Hurricane

[stuckincincy]

The New Orleans District, Mississippi River Divison, US Corps of Engineers in June, 2004 was cut by over 70 million dollars for FY 2005.

 

This was the biggest one year cut ever.

 

Do you think a lot of maintenance fell by the way-side?

 

What about those pumps?

 

Don't get me wrong the above pump scenario is just a premise.  What do you think gets cut within the district to make up for funding shortfalls?

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I've heard that the Corp's annual budget is on the order of 4 to 5 Billion dollars, and that Delta area leads by a large amount in Congressional appropriations? Yes?

 

And what was reduced is important.

[Mickey]

i agreed with you right up until this little catch phrase i keep hearing.

 

"how many more lives could have been saved"? 

 

Yes...every life is important but my guess is that less than 5% of those lives lost would have been saved had the response been quicker.  and of that

"less than 5%" my guess is that 99% of them were ill and in trouble before the storm hit.  these are people who died due to exporsure of heat and dehydration in the days immediately following.

 

The constant hype in "potential" death toll numbers is very disturbing to me.

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The question is an inevitable one. As the whole terrible event is analyzed, mistakes by whoever will certainly be uncovered and then the question will be asked as to whether the mistake was one that cost lives. Guessing, I would say that for most blunders we will never really know what might have been. We will likely be haunted by that thought for many years.

 

Here is a thought. During all the endless discussions and debates had on this board during the run up to the election last year, how often do you think FEMA or hurricane preparedness came up?

[erynthered]

. 

 

Here is a thought.  During all the endless discussions and debates had on this board during the run up to the election last year, how often do you think FEMA or hurricane preparedness came up?

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It did here in Florida on the local level and state level during elections. Imagine that.

[Taro T]

Here is a thought.  During all the endless discussions and debates had on this board during the run up to the election last year, how often do you think FEMA or hurricane preparedness came up?

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Here's a thought, spurred by your question. Had Kerry won, it would be interesting to know whether FEMA would have even HAD a chief administrator as we are only 7 months after he would have taken over. My guess is that it would, but I know that not all of Bush's appointees were installed by August of '01, and there are several deputy positions that are not filled today; so it is not a given that Kerry's choice would be in place.

 

I honestly believe that the response at the federal level would not have been any better than the actual response, and quite possibly could have been worse, as new people were getting oriented into their positions.

 

As I've stated in other threads, I'd like to see the situation under control before all the congressional hearings and what not are assembled to determine blame. Heck, I don't even think we need congressional hearings. This board seems to have that pretty well covered already.

 

Having lived many years ago in Louisiana, I am not overly surprised by the mayor's actions pre and post Katrina. I am surprised by the governor's. I would not be surprised to learn that there were things that FEMA did not do as well as possible, but again we are dealing with a disaster whose scale has never occurred in this country.

 

Dave.

[Wacka]

Mickey, being a lawyer you shoukd know the law.

FEMA can't come in until asked to by the governor.

The National Guard has to be deployed by the governor. The governor and the mayor of NO royally F'd this up.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Actually, I was relying on BIB's National Response Plan for events of National Significance.  Dept of HS does have co-ordinating activities in disasters of national significance.  I don't remember FEMA getting high marks for anything in this administration

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And that FRP (Federal Response Plan) acknowledges and states that even know state and local authorities are primarily responsible... The state and local authorities can become overwhelmed and the federal governement steps in for IMMEDIATE action to prevent human suffering, etc...

 

I guess it all boils down to what Immediate is? Is four days immediate? Especially for human suffering... Huh?

 

The FRP (the actual implementation of the plan through various agencies) was there on the ground at 1400 Monday... Or was supposed to be.

 

Like I said a 1,000 times before, my agency was supposed to take care of ice, water, etc... for the state of La. The distribution networks were being set up in Memphis before Katrina hit.

 

Not sure what the heck happened?...

[ExiledInIllinois]

I've heard that the Corp's annual budget is on the order of 4 to 5 Billion dollars, and that Delta area leads by a large amount in Congressional appropriations? Yes?

 

And what was reduced is important.

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Not sure at what you are getting at? Can you clarify?

[ExiledInIllinois]

Mickey, being a lawyer you shoukd know the law.

FEMA can't come in until asked to by the governor.

The National Guard has to be deployed by the governor. The governor and the mayor of NO royally F'd this up.

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Then why I am starring at a press release dated Monday, August 29th (the day Katrina hit) saying that FEMA is handling relief efforts?

 

 

So they can go there but, somebody has got to say please?

 

[Mickey]

Then why I am starring at a press release dated Monday, August 29th (the day Katrina hit) saying that FEMA is handling relief efforts?

 

 

So they can go there but, somebody has got to say please?

 

 

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I don't really know the legal ins and outs of this but I believe that the feds can have all the power they want when a threat like this occurs. Its not like Katrina respected any political boundry. It hit across several states and uncounted towns, villages, counties, etc. I can't imagine that FEMA can't come in until every constable, mayor, governor, etc in the effected areas fills out some forms in triplicate. I suspect this angle is part of the spin trying to combat the spin to blame Bush.

[Chilly]

"Those who don't want to play the blame game are usually to blame."

[ExiledInIllinois]

I don't really know the legal ins and outs of this but I believe that the feds can have all the power they want when a threat like this occurs.  Its not like Katrina respected any political boundry.  It hit across several states and uncounted towns, villages, counties, etc.  I can't imagine that FEMA can't come in until every constable, mayor, governor, etc in the effected areas fills out some forms in triplicate.  I suspect this angle is part of the spin trying to combat the spin to blame Bush.

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You are so right.

 

Didn't the gov of La send a letter to the pres on Monday.

 

Maybe Blanco was out of carbon paper?

[Mickey]

Mickey, being a lawyer you shoukd know the law.

FEMA can't come in until asked to by the governor.

The National Guard has to be deployed by the governor. The governor and the mayor of NO royally F'd this up.

433921[/snapback]

Here is a link to the press release from 8/27, a day after the Governor declared a state of emergency in La., where the President declared La. to be a disaster area as well and which states:

 

"...The President's action authorizes the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts which have the purpose of alleviating the hardship and suffering caused by the emergency on the local population, and to provide appropriate assistance for required emergency measures, authorized under Title V of the Stafford Act, to save lives, protect property and public health and safety..."

 

And further:

 

"Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency."

 

See White House Press Release

 

I am no expert on the Stafford Act but this seems clear enough that as of 8/27, because the President declared a state of emergency, albeit the day after the governor did, FEMA had all the authority it needed.

[Mickey]

"Those who don't want to play the blame game are usually to blame." 

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Daily show

[ExiledInIllinois]

Here is a link to the press release from 8/27, a day after the Governor declared a state of emergency in La., where the President declared La. to be a disaster area as well and which states:

 

"...The President's action authorizes the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts which have the purpose of alleviating the hardship and suffering caused by the emergency on the local population, and to provide appropriate assistance for required emergency measures, authorized under Title V of the Stafford Act, to save lives, protect property and public health and safety..."

 

And further:

 

"Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency."

 

See White House Press Release

 

I am no expert on the Stafford Act but this seems clear enough that as of 8/27, because the President declared a state of emergency, albeit the day after the governor did, FEMA had all the authority it needed.

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I have been mentioning the Stafford Act for a week now... Seems they don't want to hear it here.

 

I guess Bush is good, Bush bad, looters, rapists, etc... are better talking points?

 

 

 

[Mickey]

From the Stafford Act:

 

§ 5170a. GENERAL FEDERAL ASSISTANCE {Sec. 402}

 

In any major disaster, the President may--

 

1. direct any Federal agency, with or without reimbursement, to utilize its authorities and the resources granted to it under Federal law (including personnel, equipment, supplies, facilities, and managerial, technical, and advisory services) in support of State and local assistance efforts;

 

2. coordinate all disaster relief assistance (including voluntary assistance) provided by Federal agencies, private organizations, and State and local governments;

 

3. provide technical and advisory assistance to affected State and local governments for--

 

A. the performance of essential community services;

B. issuance of warnings of risks and hazards;

C. public health and safety information, including dissemination of such information;

D. provision of health and safety measures; and

E. management, control, and reduction of immediate threats to public health and safety; and

 

4. assist State and local governments in the distribution of medicine, food, and other consumable supplies, and emergency assistance.

[Dan Gross]

From the Stafford Act:

 

§ 5170a. GENERAL FEDERAL ASSISTANCE {Sec. 402}

 

In any major disaster, the President may--

 

1. direct any Federal agency, with or without reimbursement, to utilize its authorities and the resources granted to it under Federal law (including personnel, equipment, supplies, facilities, and managerial, technical, and advisory services) in support of State and local assistance efforts;

 

2. coordinate all disaster relief assistance (including voluntary assistance) provided by Federal agencies, private organizations, and State and local governments;

 

 

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Yep, and as a lawyer you'll notice the key word is "coordinate" in #2, not "direct." The Stafford Act does not give him authority to override/direct any state/local govt's, but to try to maximize coverage and minimize duplication of effort. So, for example, the LA DHS has the authority to tell the Red Cross not to go to New Orleans, so then the President "may coordinate" with all the organizations involved in order to best try to get the people to the Red Cross instead. He can't just call bull and send the Red Cross in anyway...

[Wacka]

Another important part:

From the Stafford Act:

 

§ 5170a. GENERAL FEDERAL ASSISTANCE {Sec. 402}

 

In any major disaster, the President may--

 

1. direct any Federal agency, with or without reimbursement, to utilize its authorities and the resources granted to it under Federal law (including personnel, equipment, supplies, facilities, and managerial, technical, and advisory services) in support of State and local assistance efforts;

 

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Not direct, but IN SUPPORT of local efforts.

[erynthered]

§ 5170. PROCEDURE FOR DECLARATION {Sec. 401}

 

All requests for a declaration by the President that a major disaster exists shall be made by the Governor of the affected State. Such a request shall be based on a finding that the disaster is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and the affected local governments and that Federal assistance is necessary. As part of such request, and as a prerequisite to major disaster assistance under this Act, the Governor shall take appropriate response action under State law and direct execution of the State's emergency plan. The Governor shall furnish information on the nature and amount of State and local resources which have been or will be committed to alleviating the results of the disaster, and shall certify that, for the current disaster, State and local government obligations and expenditures (of which State commitments must be a significant proportion) will comply with all applicable cost-sharing requirements of this Act. Based on the request of a Governor under this section, the President may declare under this Act that a major disaster or emergency exists.

 

 

You didnt skip this one on purpose, did you Mick?

[Mickey]

Another important part:

 

Not direct, but IN SUPPORT of local efforts.

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Yeah, that works if you stop reading after paragraph 1 but unfortunately for you point, there in fact is a pragraph 2. I invite you to read the entire act along with the FRP (Federal Response Plan). Then come and tell me that the President just didn't have authority to so much as trim a toe nail without an okay from little governor Blanco.

 

Here is just one example:

 

EMERGENCY COMMUNICATIONS

 

Sec. 418. The President is authorized during, or in anticipation of, an emergency or major disaster to establish temporary communications systems and to make such communications available to State and local government officials and other persons as he deems appropriate.

 

At some point I trust that whatever investigation is done will look at the role played by inadequate communications and what might have been done to prevent any such problems "in anticipation of" the pending disaster.

 

I am not at all saying that the state and local authorities aren't involved here or that they have no responsibility to get the feds involved by making the appropriate declarations and requests. What I am saying is the notion that the poor Prez was chomping at the bit to get out of Crawford and leap into action but had his feet nailed to the floor by tardy locals is just plain wrong. Understand that I am slowly coming to the opinion that lots and lots of people from Brown to Bush and Blano to Nagin screwed up and need to spend their fair share of time in the public stocks. Not just George, all of these f**kers.

[Mickey]

Yep, and as a lawyer you'll notice the key word is "coordinate" in #2, not "direct."  The Stafford Act does not give him authority to override/direct any state/local govt's, but to try to maximize coverage and minimize duplication of effort.  So, for example, the LA DHS has the authority to tell the Red Cross not to go to New Orleans, so then the President "may coordinate" with all the organizations involved in order to best try to get the people to the Red Cross instead.  He can't just call bull and send the Red Cross in anyway...

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I don't think that is a fair reading of the word "coordinate" in the context of that sentence. It refers not just to state and locals but also to federal agencies. If you interpret "coordinate" in your limited sense then you would be saying that the President can only coordinate, not direct, his own federal agencies. These same terms are used in other legal contexts and frankly, the authority to coordinate can be more powerful than directing other entities. Coordinating means getting them to work together which you can't do if you don't have the power to direct them. This happens all the time in constructin cases.

 

I would recommend you to the Federal Response Plan, the Disaster Mitigation Act and the entire Stafford Act to get a clearer picture of the, in some cases, plenary authority the federal government can have in a natural disaster. That doesn't mean that the states aren't on the front line, it just means that it isn't a defense for the governor to blame the feds nor for the Bush people to be blaming the governor.

 

One example is federal control over the property and facilities of the federal government in an emergency. Certainly, I would imagine there was plenty of federal property in the afflicted areas. As to them, Bush would have needed no authority from anybody to act. I have no idea if he did or not or to what extent that might have helped anything but it certainly conflicts with the emerging defense that the poor powerless president wanted to swoop in but those idiot local yokels never asked.