Some Facts on the Hurricane

[Mickey]

Mickey, the funding aspect is pretty much irrelevent.  Even if Bush had fully funded the Levee project in 2001, do you really think the work would have been completed enough to make a significant enough difference in what happened?

433491[/snapback]

Um...I wasn't endorsing or refuting any view point, just providing a link to an informative piece which stated clearly that the facts they were able to assemble neither absolved nor put blame on Bush. I'll go back and read it but I thought one of the reasons they thought the jury was out was in fact because the work asked for, even if funded, wouldn't have been done in time.

 

I may have missed it because I am short on time today but I don't think I have seen a post in this thread which challenges any of the facts actually asserted by FActCheck.org in the linked article.

[CoachChuckDickerson]

factcheck.org is ONLY factual if they agree with the right. The ball was dropped on multiple levels. Some of you guys are really scarry in the "Bush administration can do no wrong" stance. HIS appointees dropped the ball, therfore HIS administration will be held accountable. When the actual event occurred Bush did nothing wrong. He followed the rules to a T as far as what the correct actions must be taken to get the ball rolling. The ball got stuck downhill from him but it was held up by HIS people. I like Bush, I voted for Bush, but his guys dropped the ball hard. End of story.

[Mickey]

In case you aren't familiar with how our government is SUPPOSED to work:

The chain of responsiblity for the protection of the citizens in New Orleans is:

 

1. The Mayor

2. The New Orleans director of Homeland Security (a political appointee of the Governor who reports to the Governor)

3. The Governor

4. The Head of Homeland Security

5. The President

 

What did each do?

 

1. The mayor, with 5 days advance, waited until 2 days before he announced a mandatory evacuation (at the behest of the President). The he failed to provide transportation for those without transport even though he had hundreds of buses at his disposal.

 

2. The New Orleans director of Homeland Security failed to have any plan for a contingency that has been talked about for 50 years. Then he blames the Feds for not doing what he should have done. (So much for political appointees)

 

3. The Governor, despite a declaration of disaster by the President 2 DAYS BEFORE the storm hit, failed to take advantage of the offer of Federal troops and aid. Until 2 DAYS AFTER the storm hit.

 

4. The Director of Homeland Security positioned assets in the area to be ready when the Governor called for them

 

5. The President urged a mandatory evacuation, and even declared a disaster State of Emergency, freeing up millions of dollars of federal assistance, should the Governor decide to use it.

 

Oh and by the way, the levees that broke were the responsibility of the local landowners and the local levee board to maintain, NOT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

 

The disaster in New Orleans is what you get after decades of corrupt (democrat) government going all the way back to Huey Long.

 

Funds for disaster protection and relief have been flowing into this city for decades, and where has it gone, but into the pockets of the politicos and their friends.

 

Decades of socialist government in New Orleans has sapped all self reliance from the community, and made them dependent upon government for every little thing.

 

Political correctness and a lack of will to fight crime have created the single most corrupt police force in the country, and has permitted gang violence to flourish.

 

The sad thing is that there are many poor folks who have suffered and died needlessly because those that they voted into office failed them.

 

For those who missed item 5 (where the President's level of accountability is discussed), it is made more clear in a New Orleans Times-Picayune article dated August 28:

 

NEW ORLEANS (AP) - In the face of a catastrophic Hurricane Katrina, a mandatory evacuation was ordered Sunday for New Orleans by Mayor Ray Nagin.

 

Acknowledging that large numbers of people, many of them stranded tourists, would be unable to leave, the city set up 10 places of last resort for people to go, including the Superdome.

 

The mayor called the order unprecedented and said anyone who could leave the city should. He exempted hotels from the evacuation order because airlines had already cancelled all flights.

 

Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said President Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding. (emphasis mine)

 

The ball was placed in Mayor Nagin's court to carry out the evacuation order. With a 5-day heads-up, he had the authority to use any and all services to evacuate all residents from the city, as documented in a city emergency preparedness plan. By waiting until the last minute, and failing to make full use of resources available within city limits, Nagin and his administration f**ked up.

 

Mayor Nagin and his emergency sidekick Terry Ebbert have displayed lethal, mind boggling incompetence before, during and after Katrina.

As for Mayor Nagin, he and his profile in pathetic leadership police chief should resign as well. That city's government is incompetent from one end to the other. The people of New Orleans deserve better than this crowd of clowns is capable of giving them.

 

If you're keeping track, these boobs let 569 buses that could have carried 33,350 people out of New Orleans-in one trip-get ruined in the floods. Whatever plan these guys had, it was a dud. Or it probably would have been if they'd bothered to follow it.

 

As for all the race-baiting rhetoric and Bush-bashing coming from prominent blacks on the left, don't expect Ray Nagin to be called out on the carpet for falling short. You want to know why? Here's why:

 

It's more convenient to blame a white president for what went wrong than to hold a black mayor and his administration accountable for gross negligence and failing to fully carry out an established emergency preparedness plan.

 

To hold Nagin and his administration accountable for dropping the ball amounts to letting loose the shouts and cries of "Racism!". It's sad, it's wrong, but it's standard operating procedure for the media and left-wing black leadership.

 

Mark my words: you will not hear a word of criticism from Jesse Jackson Sr., Randall Robinson, the Congressional Black Caucus, the NAACP, or Kanye West being directed toward Clarence Ray Nagin Jr. Why? Because he is just another black politician instead of a responsible elected official who happens to be black. In the mindset of more-blacker-than-thou blacks, black politicians who are on their side can do no wrong.

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How surprising, not a sinle solitary criticism of the administration. Once again, they were absolutely prefect, how uncanny. I have no problem considering that many people screwed up here from top to bottom including local officials in addition to FEMA and the administration. Do you have even the slightest concern over the administration's actions here at all?

 

This may seem like a shocking revelation but the whole reason we have FEMA and the feds involved in disaster relief is because of the screechingly obvious point that in the event of a major disaster, local resources are not sufficient to adequately respond to the need for emergency services. Further, the local authorities are usually terribly disrupted because their people, equipment and other resources are in fact local and so have had to endure the catastrophe as well. Certainly, their abilities are diminished since they got flooded just as bad as the people they are trying to help. That is why outside help is so important and why the vital federal role is so crucial in the event of a catastrophe.

 

Blaming the little, comparatively powerless mayor of New Orleans, and ignoring even the possibility of screw ups at the federal level is simply a blatant attempt to give your own guy a pass. I think they should all answer for their mistakes, from the mayor to the President.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Um...I wasn't endorsing or refuting any view point, just providing a link to an informative piece which stated clearly that the facts they were able to assemble neither absolved nor put blame on Bush.  I'll go back and read it but I thought one of the reasons they thought the jury was out was in fact because the work asked for, even if funded, wouldn't have been done in time.

 

I may have missed it because I am short on time today but I don't think I have seen a post in this thread which challenges any of the facts actually asserted by FActCheck.org in the linked article.

433666[/snapback]

 

Just to make it clear, I don't challenge the facts as presented in that article. I challenge the context in which they're presented, which to me was pretty damned clearly that the situation started in 2001.

 

I also don't particularly appreciate the use of op-ed pieces as "factual" references while ignoring contrary facts (in articles the piece quotes as references anyway). They could have just as easily reprinted Krugman's referenced NYT op-ed rather than create their own, since it's effectively what they did anyway.

[Mickey]

factcheck.org is ONLY factual if they agree with the right. The ball was dropped on multiple levels. Some of you guys are really scarry in the "Bush administration can do no wrong" stance. HIS appointees dropped the ball, therfore HIS administration will be held accountable. When the actual event occurred Bush did nothing wrong. He followed the rules to a T as far as what the correct actions must be taken to get the ball rolling. The ball got stuck downhill from him but it was held up by HIS people. I like Bush, I voted for Bush, but his guys dropped the ball hard. End of story.

433693[/snapback]

I can understand the urge to defend him against criticism that is felt to be unfair but the fact is, they defend him from all criticism no matter what, period.

 

On the Daily show last night that had a mock piece from Ed Helms where he said something like:

 

"...all the power of the federal government and every administration resource is being brought to bear in an emergency effort to try and save this much beloved yet beleaguered....President."

 

If FEMA had moved 1/2 as fast in saving NO as the rest of the government moved to defend the Prez and blaming others, I have to wonder how many lives might have been saved.

 

I think in the end there will have been many, many screw ups by lord knows how many people from right to left but the mayor of NO doesn't have an unlimited goon squad leaping to his defense.

[ExiledInIllinois]

It happened on Bush's watch. Therefore, it is his fault. I just thought I would pre-empt the inevitable response.

433228[/snapback]

 

Thanks Ken... Saves me some typing.

 

Like analogies as much as I do?

 

But, you forgot to say that no other president gutted funding by 71.5 million in one year.

 

Just like driving a car. Whose fault is it if the oil light is on in the car and it blows up while you are driving? You gonna blame the slep that used it last? Of course you are gonna. But... In the end it was your responsibility, you were the driver.

 

Personal responsibilty I guess is lost on people?

 

GWB's (I bet in his eyes) only problem was that this didn't happen in '09.

 

This whole situation reminds me of work. Someone takes the tractor out for a whirl and tears it up... Then proceeds to quietly put it back in the garage.

 

The next day you bee-bop to the garage, hop on and roll... The thing gets forever wrecked.

 

Who's fault is it?

 

Should you have checked out the machine first?

 

It is even worse if you knew the machine was broken?

 

Or are you just a clueless slep also?

 

I bet GWB is playing the ditsy role now, even know he kicked it first.

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

What FACT they omitted was that the levees that broke were already improved. The ones that had funding cut for their upgrade held . The decision to improve the levees to withstand a Cat3 rather than a Cat5  was made 10 years ago.

 

All his quotes are articles from the paper or Sidney Blumenthal ( a real impartial source ) .Why didnt he quote actual govt documents?

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But where they maintained?

 

You just don't throw up concrete and earth and say see-ya!

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

Actually, from what I understand the design of the levees to withstand Cat 3 came more like 40 years ago...

433272[/snapback]

 

And it wasn't called Cat 3... I think it was in your article. In those times the modeling was very rudimentary. They modeled it (levees) to the highest storm known... I forget what they called it in the article.

 

Later they came up with the scale we use today. It was determined to only be a Cat 3.

 

So they didn't willfully make it a 3 to their credit... They thought they had the best and then some.

 

Do you think it was prudent to fix it then when they realized that the new scale grossly proved the levees were under-built?

 

This all happened about 10 years after they were built.

 

Then the band-aids came flying...

 

In the mid-70's when the levees were proved to be grossly inadequate do you think the bureaucrats wanted to here that?

 

Just like today Dan... The faces change not the thinking.

 

That is where my sig comes in...

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

And it wasn't called Cat 3... I think it was in your article.  In those times the modeling was very rudimentary.  They modeled it (levees) to the highest storm known... I forget what they called it in the article.

 

Later they came up with the scale we use today.  It was determined to only be a Cat 3.

 

So they didn't willfully make it a 3 to their credit... They thought they had the best and then some.

 

Do you think it was prudent to fix it then when they realized that the new scale grossly proved the levees were under-built?

 

This all happened about 10 years after they were built.

 

Then the band-aids came flying...

 

In the mid-70's when the levees were proved to be grossly inadequate do you think the bureaucrats wanted to here that?

 

Just like today Dan... The faces change not the thinking.

 

That is where my sig comes in...

433790[/snapback]

 

But understanding that decisions made 40 years ago still impact us today is hard...

[stuckincincy]

But, you forgot to say that no other president gutted funding by 71.5 million in one year.

 

 

433761[/snapback]

 

What is FEMA's total budget? What percent of that is that 71 million? What programs were "gutted"?

 

When? Which budget year?

[pope zimli]

I heard on the radio this morning that the Red Cross was ready to deploy to the region with supplies, namely the convention center and Superdome, but were told by the Louisiana Department of Homeland Security (not the feds, the state) that they were forbidden from going there. The reason: LDHS did not want those places to become magnets for refugees seeking help. They wanted people out of those places and by sending in relief supplies to those areas, it would attract more people. This information came from the Red Cross, if you need a source. Otherwise, I have no link since it was on the radio.

433331[/snapback]

But what agency is supposed to co-rdinate state and local and charitable entities and ensure co-ordination? FEMA. What agency operated very efficiently in the past under the previous administration in the wake of such disasters as the Oklahoma bombing and received high marks throughout? FEMA. Who appointed a guy who couldn't even run horse shows to appoint the watered down agency? Bush.

[Mickey]

What is FEMA's total budget?  What percent of that is that 71 million? What programs were "gutted"?

 

When? Which budget year?

433810[/snapback]

Excellent questions all, I would loved to have heard them when every other day I could read posts about how Bill Clinton "gutted" the CIA.

[ExiledInIllinois]

What is FEMA's total budget?  What percent of that is that 71 million? What programs were "gutted"?

 

When? Which budget year?

433810[/snapback]

 

The New Orleans District, Mississippi River Divison, US Corps of Engineers in June, 2004 was cut by over 70 million dollars for FY 2005.

 

This was the biggest one year cut ever.

 

Do you think a lot of maintenance fell by the way-side?

 

What about those pumps?

 

Don't get me wrong the above pump scenario is just a premise. What do you think gets cut within the district to make up for funding shortfalls?

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

But what agency is supposed to co-rdinate state and local and charitable entities and ensure co-ordination?  FEMA. 

 

What, states can't coordinate with their own localities without federal help?

 

What agency operated very efficiently in the past under the previous administration in the wake of such disasters as the Oklahoma bombing and received high marks throughout?  FEMA.  Who appointed a guy who couldn't even run horse shows to appoint the watered down agency?  Bush.

433815[/snapback]

 

And why weren't you bitching about this administration's handling of FEMA and appointment of Brown earlier? Probably because you've conveniently forgotten that FEMA and its current director received high marks during last year's hurricane season. Kind of blows a hole in your whole "FEMA's ineffective because of Bush" theory, doesn't it?

 

And you know what the biggest difference is between last year's quartet of storms and this one? Last year's hit Florida - a state with municipalities that have emergency plans and know how to integrate the federal response into their own activities.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

The New Orleans District, Mississippi River Divison, US Corps of Engineers in June, 2004 was cut by over 70 million dollars for FY 2005.

 

This was the biggest one year cut ever.

 

Do you think a lot of maintenance fell by the way-side?

 

What about those pumps?

 

Don't get me wrong the above pump scenario is just a premise.  What do you think gets cut within the district to make up for funding shortfalls?

433825[/snapback]

 

Do you, being in the ACE as you are, have any way of finding out what the funding impacted?

[ExiledInIllinois]

Do you, being in the ACE as you are, have any way of finding out what the funding impacted?

433833[/snapback]

 

I don't really know. I can look into it... Not sure I will find out, especially now.

 

Like I am said... I am just a worker.

 

OT is almost totally frowned upon.

 

There was a hiring freeze in NO.

 

What if contracts for maintainance came up in 05? Would they be renewed? Not sure.

 

That is why I am against contract for maintenance work.

 

In my job... I am there no matter what... Even the little things will always get done.

[KRC]

But what agency is supposed to co-rdinate state and local and charitable entities and ensure co-ordination?  FEMA.  What agency operated very efficiently in the past under the previous administration in the wake of such disasters as the Oklahoma bombing and received high marks throughout?  FEMA.  Who appointed a guy who couldn't even run horse shows to appoint the watered down agency?  Bush.

433815[/snapback]

 

FEMA does not have jurisdiction over the Red Cross. The Red Cross was told NOT to show up by the state government of LA.

[KRC]

What, states can't coordinate with their own localities without federal help?

And why weren't you bitching about this administration's handling of FEMA and appointment of Brown earlier?  Probably because you've conveniently forgotten that FEMA and its current director received high marks during last year's hurricane season.    Kind of blows a hole in your whole "FEMA's ineffective because of Bush" theory, doesn't it?

 

And you know what the biggest difference is between last year's quartet of storms and this one?  Last year's hit Florida - a state with municipalities that have emergency plans and know how to integrate the federal response into their own activities.

433831[/snapback]

 

<adjusts tin foil hat>

 

The reason why Florida was better was because Jeb Bush is the governor and it was an election year.

 

<adjusts tin foil hat>

 

[pope zimli]

FEMA does not have jurisdiction over the Red Cross. The Red Cross was told NOT to show up by the state government of LA.

433845[/snapback]

 

Actually, I was relying on BIB's National Response Plan for events of National Significance. Dept of HS does have co-ordinating activities in disasters of national significance. I don't remember FEMA getting high marks for anything in this administration

[OnTheRocks]

If FEMA had moved 1/2 as fast in saving NO as the rest of the government moved to defend the Prez and blaming others, I have to wonder how many lives might have been saved.

433738[/snapback]

 

 

i agreed with you right up until this little catch phrase i keep hearing.

 

"how many more lives could have been saved"?

 

Yes...every life is important but my guess is that less than 5% of those lives lost would have been saved had the response been quicker. and of that

"less than 5%" my guess is that 99% of them were ill and in trouble before the storm hit. these are people who died due to exporsure of heat and dehydration in the days immediately following.

 

The constant hype in "potential" death toll numbers is very disturbing to me.