A different view of NO

[Albany,n.y.]

http://tiadaily.com/php-bin/news/showArticle.php?id=1026

 

I haven't seen this angle discussed so bluntly. I think the right wil like this better than the left.

[Ghost of BiB]

http://tiadaily.com/php-bin/news/showArticle.php?id=1026

 

I haven't seen this angle discussed so bluntly.  I think the right wil like this better than the left.

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This should get interesting.

[IDBillzFan]

Jack Wakeland then told me that early reports from CNN and Fox indicated that the city had no plan for evacuating all of the prisoners in the city's jails—so they just let many of them loose.

 

Unsubstantiated, yes. But if this even REMOTELY turns out to be true, I can't possibly imagine a world where certain people are going to be able to live with themselves.

[UConn James]

Why are people responding to natural destruction by causing further destruction? Why are they attacking the people who are trying to help them?

 

Shown also in the condition of the bathrooms in the Superdome on Tuesday. Soiled diapers all over the floor, toilet stalls that were just covered in brown.... Guess someone never taught them to try to sh-- in the toilet or to put trash in the can, or barring that, pile it in a corner instead of where you need to walk. I understand a hurricane wiped things out, but this is basic sanitation for the place you're staying.

 

There is a difference b/w giving people a leg up when they need it, and giving an able-bodied but weak-minded person a wheelchair. Unfortunately, these groups are often lumped together in the public conciousness and when spending cuts come, they usually most affects those who use the help for good rather than those who make their living off of it.

 

As far as releasing the prisoners, that's in the social contract upon which this country is founded. The State puts people in prison on behalf of the People and it's something that if you're going to take away people's liberty, you have to pay for it. At such time as the State cannot hold them with the resources at hand, or their lives are in jeopardy from natural disaster, they are set free to try and live, as they were not handed death sentences; it's kind of along the lines of 'Better to let an innocent man go free...." Sucks that they're out and have committed more crimes, and there is part of everyone that reasons, Why not just let them die in the prison? when we hear about the stuff that happened. Still, we are a nation of laws. They will eventually be rounded up as things get more closely back to order or they will likely recidivate.

[SilverNRed]

     

 

Unsubstantiated, yes. But if this even REMOTELY turns out to be true, I can't possibly imagine a world where certain people are going to be able to live with themselves.

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Guess that would explain the "Escape from N.Y." situation in New Orleans most of the past week - it literally *was* "Escape from N.Y."!!

[IDBillzFan]

As far as releasing the prisoners, that's in the social contract upon which this country is founded.

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I don't like disagreeing with people who use "decidivate" in a sentence, but how about this scenario from the prison officials: "Gee, the entire city of NO is being asked to evacuate three days before a hurricane. What should we do with the prisoners? Ahhh, let's just let them free and we can all run for the hills."

 

Yeah, I know, where WOULD you put them? Still, someone should have had a plan in place. Letting them go free is a !@#$ed up plan and an even more !@#$ed up law. The more I learn about the people running New Orleans, the more I think God had a reason for hitting it.

[BigAL]

I don't like disagreeing with people who use "decidivate" in a sentence, but how about this scenario from the prison officials: "Gee, the entire city of NO is being asked to evacuate three days before a hurricane. What should we do with the prisoners? Ahhh, let's just let them free and we can all run for the hills."

 

Yeah, I know, where WOULD you put them? Still, someone should have had a plan in place. Letting them go free is a !@#$ed up plan and an even more !@#$ed up law. The more I learn about the people running New Orleans, the more I think God had a reason for hitting it.

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The prisoners were not set free. Here's a link to an abcnews report with Senator Landrieu about what happened to the prisoners.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

The prisoners were not set free.  Here's a link to an abcnews report with Senator Landrieu about what happened to the prisoners.

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My recollection is that the full Landrieu account shown described the incredibly valiant and responsible efforts of a particular set of guards and DID Not describe the general disposition of prisoners in the face of the coming hurricane in light of the mandatory evacuation order. It raises an interesting issue for which the answer should be quite findable or it no answer is found it says a lot in and of itself about action by those in charge that they were at best incompetent and and worst pretty inhumane if there is no strategy or plan to deal with these prisoners in light of a mandatory evacuation order.

 

In general, it seems reasonable to me to make a decision to leave the pirsoners in their cells in light of a mandatory evacuation as long as it is judged that the prison has a good chance of surviving the storm.

 

It would strike me that you order a mandatory evacuation of the city not because you are certain it will be destroyed, but as a precaution in that when the hurricane hits you cannot reasonably gurantee safety and after the major storm clean-up and rescue will go better the fewer people there are around.

 

As long as you are reasonably sure that the prison will survive the storm then keeping the prisoners in place is a reasonable thing to do. However, if you have reasomable concerns the prison may be destroyed, you evacuate it completely and remove the prisoners under lock and key before hand not just simply becaise to leave them would be to potentially give a death sentence to someone sentenced tp imprisonment, but you will need to have guards there and they should be evacuated rather than risk death and because any prisoners who survive after the building is destroyed are now free in the ravaged city to break the law if they choose.

 

My guess is that the prisoners remained in lockdown which actually may be one of the safer ways to withstand a hurricane. The man0made disaster of the levees breaking is another issue.

 

This is why the actions described by Sen. Landrieu were so heroic. These guards at great personal risk performed great physical feats which both preserved public safety by holding the prisoners but also save lives by saving the prisoners fro, drowning.

 

It will be interesting to see in the post-mortem what plans there were to both preseve public safety and to save lives in case of disaster. Both things can be done and the question is whether the folks in charge of the prisons did this.

 

As far as the commentary it is interesting but in the end probably has more to do with ideology than reality. The effects of the welfare state is trivia compared to the relaity of the situation. The idea that this clustewhat happened due to the existence of the welfare state and not due to the actions and decisions of individuals who should be praised or punished by society based on their individual action misses the boat of reality.

 

Some folks were heroic and deserve praise and thanks and some folks were idiots and deserve the appripriate censure and whether there is a welfare state or not you will have both types.

[KD in CA]

http://tiadaily.com/php-bin/news/showArticle.php?id=1026

 

People living in piles of their own trash, while petulantly complaining that other people aren't doing enough to take care of them and then shooting at those who come to rescue them—this is not just a description of the chaos at the Superdome. It is a perfect summary of the 40-year history of the welfare state and its public housing projects.

 

 

Bullseye.

[erynthered]

Bullseye.

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Nice, wasnt it? I'm still wondering why this thread hasnt had as much activity as I thought it would.

 

 

I liked the article too Kev.........................

[SDS]

Nice, wasnt it? I'm still wondering why this thread hasnt had as much activity as I thought it would.

I liked the article too Kev.........................

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cause we aren't supposed to talk about those unpleasant realities in public.

[BigAL]

Nice, wasnt it? I'm still wondering why this thread hasnt had as much activity as I thought it would.

I liked the article too Kev.........................

430048[/snapback]

The article is all about assumptions. Assumptions about the people looting & committing crimes, assumptions about whether these same peolple are the ones on welfare, assumptions about the number of trouble makers. For all we know there could be 100 thugs, gang members, criminals or whatever, that have committed the bulk of the crimes and incidents referenced in the article. Until there is more than anecdotal sotries, with specific people involved, their backgrounds, and status, all you have is conjecture. Maybe this intellectual activist will follow up with some research to back up his theory.

[IDBillzFan]

The article is all about assumptions.  Assumptions about the people looting & committing crimes, assumptions about whether these same peolple are the ones on welfare, assumptions about the number of trouble makers.  For all we know there could be 100 thugs, gang members, criminals or whatever, that have committed the bulk of the crimes and incidents referenced in the article.  Until there is more than anecdotal sotries, with specific people involved, their backgrounds, and status, all you have is conjecture.  Maybe this intellectual activist will follow up with some research to back up his theory.

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Why is it that anecdotal stories are okay for deciding who is to blame politically, but they're not good enough to determine who is to blame personally?

[BigAL]

Why is it that anecdotal stories are okay for deciding who is to blame politically, but they're not good enough to determine who is to blame personally?

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I think most reasonable people agree that the Federal gov't was at least 24 hours late in responding to Katrina. That's not an anecdotal story. There are plenty of facts that can be used to determine "blame". It's a fact that Mike Brown, the head of FEMA said that the Federal Gov't was unaware of the situation at the Convention Centre/Superdome 2 days after it had been on tv. How can you possibly explain or justify that? I can't explain that anymore than I can explain why Mayor Nagin did not use the city and school buses to evacuate people from New Orleans, instead of taking them to the Superdome. If you want to buy into the "Intellectual Activist's" theory, you have to know at a personal level the status of the people commiting the crimes, and how that relates to welfare. Otherwise, it's just speculation.

[mead107]

if NO was going to use the dome and convention center as e vac centers how come they had no water or food stock piled ???that is not the feds problem .that is the city problem .lots of blame to go around .

[IDBillzFan]

I think most reasonable people agree that the Federal gov't was at least 24 hours late in responding to Katrina.  That's not an anecdotal story.  There are plenty of facts that can be used to determine "blame".  It's a fact that Mike Brown, the head of FEMA said that the Federal Gov't was unaware of the situation at the Convention Centre/Superdome 2 days after it had been on tv.  How can you possibly explain or justify that?  I can't explain that anymore than I can explain why Mayor Nagin did not use the city and school buses to evacuate people from New Orleans, instead of taking them to the Superdome.  If you want to buy into the "Intellectual Activist's" theory, you have to know at a personal level the status of the people commiting the crimes, and how that relates to welfare.  Otherwise, it's just speculation.

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If the city managed to get the busses to the Dome and Conv. Center, and get 25,000 people out of the city before the storm hit, no one would be busting the federal government's balls right now because they'd be too busy praising the city, county and state officials for doing such a superb job handling the pending crisis.

 

But the local screwups lead the way to federal criticisms. It's like blaming Nate Clements for the Jacksonville TD at the end of the game in our opener last year. If we stopped the fourth and long, there would have been no need for Nate in the endzone as the clock ticked away.

[BigAL]

If the city managed to get the busses to the Dome and Conv. Center, and get 25,000 people out of the city before the storm hit, no one would be busting the federal government's balls right now because they'd be too busy praising the city, county and state officials for doing such a superb job handling the pending crisis.

 

But the local screwups lead the way to federal criticisms. It's like blaming Nate Clements for the Jacksonville TD at the end of the game in our opener last year. If we stopped the fourth and long, there would have been no need for Nate in the endzone as the clock ticked away.

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All true, but that's got nothing to do with the main premise of the article which is summed up in the last paragraph...

 

"The welfare state—and the brutish, uncivilized mentality it sustains and encourages—is the man-made disaster that explains the moral ugliness that has swamped New Orleans. And that is the story that no one is reporting."

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

All true, but that's got nothing to do with the main premise of the article which is summed up in the last paragraph...

 

"The welfare state—and the brutish, uncivilized mentality it sustains and encourages—is the man-made disaster that explains the moral ugliness that has swamped New Orleans. And that is the story that no one is reporting."

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And what's wrong with that statement?

 

The people left behind were left behind because they expected the government to take care of them rather than taking initiative and responsibility for their OWN PHYSICAL SAFETY.

[RuntheDamnBall]

And what's wrong with that statement?

 

The people left behind were left behind because they expected the government to take care of them rather than taking initiative and responsibility for their OWN PHYSICAL SAFETY.

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Says the armchair quarterback. Real easy to say that without knowing everybody's situations. How are you to know if one of these people was working three jobs and still couldn't afford a way out of town, or if they were welfare-grubbing slobs, for that matter?

 

I take and believe the personal responsibility bit to a point, but there are times when the situation calls for something beyond personal responsibility, namely for people to be good to each other and help one's fellow man.

 

This is just another excuse to fold this terrible mess into.

[BigAL]

And what's wrong with that statement?

 

The people left behind were left behind because they expected the government to take care of them rather than taking initiative and responsibility for their OWN PHYSICAL SAFETY.

431019[/snapback]

Well, as I pointed out in my initial response, there are no facts to support that statement, only conjecture, anecdotes, and unconfirmed reports. But hey, feel free to jump to all the conclusions you want to believe in if it makes you feel better.