Peter Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 I lived through Hurricane Andrew down here in Miami. At the time, I lived in Coconut Grove. For those of you unfamiliar with the Grove, it has its nice part, which is right next door to a part of the city that is not so safe. George H.W. Bush sent down the National Guard to keep law and order. In fact, there were troops right on my street corner, and I was very happy to have them there. There is absolutely no excuse for looting (especially the looting of electronics etc.) It would be nice to think that there would be no looting in these types of situations, but it is extremely naive of anyone to think there would not be. It is expecially naive to think that hungry people would not become desperate. If my three year old son had to go through what these people are going through, I would do ANYTHING I could to feed him. People are dying of dehydration and not receiving basic items that FEMA is supposed to provide. To argue that the failure to provide security and the basic necessities was not a mistake of monumental proportions is foolish. This is what we should be able to expect and demand of our government in times like these. Otherwise, we should expect anarchy, which is what we have now in New Orleans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TracyLee Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 How quickly did the guard get to your area? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted September 2, 2005 Author Share Posted September 2, 2005 How quickly did the guard get to your area? 426814[/snapback] About a day or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 How quickly did the guard get to your area? 426814[/snapback] In Miami they were quick. In Homestead, it was something like a week, and while people bitched a lot, there was still less bitching than there is now. (And ironically Bush Sr. was crucified over it, too.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted September 2, 2005 Author Share Posted September 2, 2005 In Miami they were quick. In Homestead, it was something like a week, and while people bitched a lot, there was still less bitching than there is now. (And ironically Bush Sr. was crucified over it, too.) 426859[/snapback] I don't recall people dying (anywhere around Miami) because they did not have food, water, or medicine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 I don't recall people dying (anywhere around Miami) because they did not have food, water, or medicine. 426868[/snapback] I don't recall Miami being under as much as 20 feet of water with most of the infrastructure shattered, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted September 2, 2005 Author Share Posted September 2, 2005 I don't recall Miami being under as much as 20 feet of water with most of the infrastructure shattered, either. 426884[/snapback] Actually, it was pretty bad down here. Until Katrina, Andrew was the worst natural disaster in our history. Somehow, we managed to make sure that people did not die because they lacked the basic necessities. I would like to think that we are a first world country and that we could have responded to the coming storm and its aftermath better than we did. Indeed, if the news media can be there to cover the story, one would think that the federal government with all of its resources could have done an adequate job. By the way, now that you brought up the levees breaking, what do you think about the administration and Congress gutting the Army Corp of Engineer's request for money to help prevent this type of catastrophe in order to pay for the war in Iraq? As I mentioned in a post yesterday, there was a professor on the O'Reilly factor two nights ago who wrote a paper three or four years ago, which stated that what actually happened would in fact happen if NO was ever hit with a category 3 storm or higher. Apparently, this was common knowledge among the experts. Nevertheless, the federal government chose not to take the appropriate actions. Accordingly, we should have known that this would happen and should have done something about it well before this storm. After failing to take the appropriate actions, our federal government should have known the devastation that was going to take place once Katrina became a category 3 storm and should have taken the appropriate actions before and after the storm. We did not. As a result, many many people have and will die. This does not exactly sound like a record about which we can be proud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Actually, it was pretty bad down here. Until Katrina, Andrew was the worst natural disaster in our history. Somehow, we managed to make sure that people did not die because they lacked the basic necessities. I would like to think that we are a first world country and that we could have responded to the coming storm and its aftermath better than we did. Indeed, if the news media can be there to cover the story, one would think that the federal government with all of its resources could have done an adequate job. By the way, now that you brought up the levees breaking, what do you think about the administration and Congress gutting the Army Corp of Engineer's request for money to help prevent this type of catastrophe in order to pay for the war in Iraq? As I mentioned in a post yesterday, there was a professor on the O'Reilly factor two nights ago who wrote a paper three or four years ago, which stated that what actually happened would in fact happen if NO was ever hit with a category 3 storm or higher. Apparently, this was common knowledge among the experts. Nevertheless, the federal government chose not to take the appropriate actions. Accordingly, we should have known that this would happen and should have done something about it well before this storm. After failing to take the appropriate actions, our federal government should have known the devastation that was going to take place once Katrina became a category 3 storm and should have taken the appropriate actions before and after the storm. We did not. As a result, many many people have and will die. This does not exactly sound like a record about which we can be proud. 426939[/snapback] Go ahead Peter, say it. Tell us all whose fault it is. I need to hear it again for the 1,534th time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted September 2, 2005 Author Share Posted September 2, 2005 Go ahead Peter, say it. Tell us all whose fault it is. I need to hear it again for the 1,534th time. 426968[/snapback] Ok. We f***ed up. Big time. Aren't you embarrassed at all about the depth of our f**k up? We have every right to expect better. It is comical to read the knee jerk posts on this board attempting to defend the indefensible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gross Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 By the way, now that you brought up the levees breaking, what do you think about the administration and Congress gutting the Army Corp of Engineer's request for money to help prevent this type of catastrophe in order to pay for the war in Iraq? You might want to read this. I direct you to here: Strock said that despite a May report by the Corps' Louisiana district that a lack of federal funding had slowed construction of hurricane protection, nothing the Corps could have done recently would have prevented Katrina from flooding New Orleans. ''The levee projects that failed were at full project design and were not really going to be improved,'' Strock said. As I mentioned in a post yesterday, there was a professor on the O'Reilly factor two nights ago who wrote a paper three or four years ago, which stated that what actually happened would in fact happen if NO was ever hit with a category 3 storm or higher. Apparently, this was common knowledge among the experts. Nevertheless, the federal government chose not to take the appropriate actions. 426939[/snapback] It was common knowledge because it was how the levee system was designed 25 years ago. It is admittedly a "risk/reward" thing and the government simply did not want to put in the extra billions of dollars back then in order to protect against something that had such a low probability of happening. It sucks, but the system effectively worked as designed. If the ACE had received more money this year they would not have spent it shoring up the levees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNRed Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 ''The levee projects that failed were at full project design and were not really going to be improved,'' Strock said.End of story. This wasn't a funding problem. It was a design problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted September 2, 2005 Author Share Posted September 2, 2005 Thanks for proving my point. Everyone knew that the current system would not survive such a storm. Yet, we did not do what was necessary to fix it. Moreover, given that we knew (as you have shown and I have posted) that there would be massive flooding with a storm such as this, why did we not react swiftly enough when the storm was still in the Gulf and we knew (or should have known) of the pending devastation. At one time, the storm was even a category 5 as I recall. It is curious that you left this out: `EVERYBODY KNEW' Strock's comments drew immediate criticism from flood-protection advocates, who said that the Corps' May report was a call for action and a complaint about insufficient funding, and that no action took place. ''The Corps knew, everybody knew, that the levees had limited capability,'' said Joseph Suhayda, a retired director of the Louisiana State University's Water Resources and Research Institute. ''Because of exercises and simulations, we knew that the consequences of overtopping [water coming over the levees] would be disastrous. People were playing with matches in the fireworks factory and it went off,'' he said. Suhayda, an expert in coastal oceanography, said, ``the fact the levee failed is not according to design. If it was overtopped, it's because it was lower in that spot than other spots. The fact that it was only designed for a Category 3 meant it was going to get overtopped. I knew that. They knew that. There were limits.'' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 End of story. This wasn't a funding problem. It was a design problem. 427026[/snapback] Then fix the design! Oh wait it take money to fix design problems. Did they keep digging the river deeper in the past 25 years? Why not make the levees higher? Oh, that is right they were maxed out... Has that stopped anybody else from doing something? Like Dan said... It was risk/reward. NOLA took all the risk and the river and port took all the traffic, not to mention Fred the farmer in Iowa. I remember what our Colonal said to me personally a few months back... "The Corps will be changing" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Ok. We f***ed up. Big time. Aren't you embarrassed at all about the depth of our f**k up? We have every right to expect better. It is comical to read the knee jerk posts on this board attempting to defend the indefensible. 426970[/snapback] Who's this WE? Look, there is NO historical precedent in American history for a tragedy like this. You can't expect everything to go right ALL the time. This is a horrible tragedy. A terrible thing, but Peter, it was BOUND to happen sometime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Who's this WE? Look, there is NO historical precedent in American history for a tragedy like this. You can't expect everything to go right ALL the time. This is a horrible tragedy. A terrible thing, but Peter, it was BOUND to happen sometime. 427046[/snapback] We as Americans? I take it very personal since it is my employer that IMO dropped the ball by not pressuring the president. I am through defending these bohemians. I go to work, make do with what I have, and collect check... If something goes down on my shift, WTF cares? (actually I care)... Maybe other workers can worry about the people they keep dry downstream?... And look forward to the day a contractor comes in and takes over. Who was the sec. of Army that had the outs with the prez and left?... Bush got his men in there now and this happens. Could not resist Bush is bad. Could not resist Bush is bad. Could not resist Bush is bad. Hmmmmmmmm A terrible thing, but Peter, it was BOUND to happen sometime. You would be perfect USACE material Joe... Got the right "get it in sh-- it in"mentality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 You would be perfect USACE material Joe... Got the right "get it in sh-- it in"mentality. 427074[/snapback] Come now, EII. Let's be grown-ups here. People who live in hurricane-prone areas should expect periodic devastation. People who live in Southern California should expect earthquakes and wildfires. Peole who live on the banks of the Mississippi should expect periodic flooding. And the government should NOT be expected to bail them out each and every time it happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RunRoscoRun Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 What if this had been a terrosist attack... Geeze, incompetency abounds. We were not prepared for this so we weren't ready for an attack either. Oh to have $200 billion that we gave Iraq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RunRoscoRun Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Come now, EII. Let's be grown-ups here. People who live in hurricane-prone areas should expect periodic devastation. People who live in Southern California should expect earthquakes and wildfires. Peole who live on the banks of the Mississippi should expect periodic flooding. And the government should NOT be expected to bail them out each and every time it happens. 427081[/snapback] The government is US! Your so proud when the government bails out foreigner though . That's why we pay taxes... to Keep America strong. You are a perfect fit for dubya... he doesn't think the governement should do anything for American's either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted September 2, 2005 Author Share Posted September 2, 2005 And the government should NOT be expected to bail them out each and every time it happens. 427081[/snapback] Interesting comment. As far as I am concerned that is one of the principal responsibilities that government has. To take your reasoning a bit further, why does government "bail out" communities with transportation money? Why does government provide disaster assistance in any case? If we are not going to "bail out" our own people, what the hell are we doing in Iraq bailing out the Iraqis?!? We should be "bailing out" our own people long before we even think about "bailing out" anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Come now, EII. Let's be grown-ups here. People who live in hurricane-prone areas should expect periodic devastation. People who live in Southern California should expect earthquakes and wildfires. Peole who live on the banks of the Mississippi should expect periodic flooding. And the government should NOT be expected to bail them out each and every time it happens. 427081[/snapback] What are you not getting? I agree with you in principle But I have to agrue, is that river in its NATURAL state... Or has it been altered and played with... They keep digging deeper and channalizing the thing. Don't they have an obligation or liabilty here. How deep should that harbor be naturally? Return it back to its natural state and I got no problem with your logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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