Max Fischer Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 If he were Rudy G he wouldn't have lost control of his city. 426804[/snapback] Oh, I didn't know you had one of those crystal balls that could see an alternative history. Did you buy it on ebay? Please look into your ball and tell us know what would have happened if Lee did not fight it out in Gettysburg and I've always wanted to know what would have happened if the Supreme Court declared Gore the winner in 2000. No doubt we'd be living in a communist society and living in rubble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.Y. Orangeman Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 No, it is the second time today - you must have skipped my post. Did the "people" that were informed to gather at the CC include anybody at FEMA? No. Days, means after the storm. They were telling people who were stranded to get to the CC because access to the SD was blocked off. Nobody bothered to tell FEMA. They aren't clairvoyant. 426820[/snapback] Ok. I stand corrected on the distinction between CC. Still, doesn't this sound a bit odd that no one at FEMA knew of this situation for this protracted amount of time? I can't accept a plea of ignorance in this instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slothrop Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 My opinion on this matter can be found in another thread. However, can we all agree that this disaster has been made exponentially worse resulting from a collision of incompetence, lack of forsight, bad planning, arrogance, and a whole lot of bad luck? Everyone had to contribute their share to accomplish what we have seen. That being said - I think everyone is trying to remedy the situation the best they can - even if Bush called this a "temporary disturbance." One question, isn't FEMA now part of the Department of Homeland Security - the department that is suppossed to coordinate between local, state, and federal agencies to prevent miscomunications and facilitate coordinated planning? Is this not where the breakdown has occurred? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 I'll defend FEMA as an agency. They had more resources in place before the storm came ashore than they committed to any storm last year after they came ashore. Their response has already been greater in three days than their combined response to all four major hurricanes (Charley, Ivan, Jeanne, and Frances) last year combined. They're simply hindered by physical conditions on the ground, and municipal leadership that can't do anything but scream "Help!" 426785[/snapback] CTM, I have not seen any of this before. Is this what you are hearing, or is there some confirmation of these numbers of resources? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Oh, I didn't know you had one of those crystal balls that could see an alternative history. Did you buy it on ebay? Please look into your ball and tell us know what would have happened if Lee did not fight it out in Gettysburg and I've always wanted to know what would have happened if the Supreme Court declared Gore the winner in 2000. No doubt we'd be living in a communist society and living in rubble. 426824[/snapback] Rudy's administration had a long history of exerting good municipal control over NYC. He had much better management skills than this yahoo in New Orleans, and I don't recall his emergency services ever abandoning him. Hell, I don't even know if he's a Republican or Democrat. And I generally don't like his politics, not since he grossly abused RICO to take down Drexel-Burnham. But keep pretending everything's a partisan issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.Y. Orangeman Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 And I generally don't like his politics, not since he grossly abused RICO to take down Drexel-Burnham. But 426835[/snapback] Here, here on the RICO comment! That's a great subject for another day a time on the PPP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRC Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Rudy's administration had a long history of exerting good municipal control over NYC. He had much better management skills than this yahoo in New Orleans, and I don't recall his emergency services ever abandoning him. Hell, I don't even know if he's a Republican or Democrat. And I generally don't like his politics, not since he grossly abused RICO to take down Drexel-Burnham. But keep pretending everything's a partisan issue. 426835[/snapback] You are not fooling anyone. We all know that you are a Republican apologist (of course, except for those days when you are a Democratic apologist). Signed, KRC Communist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 CTM, I have not seen any of this before. Is this what you are hearing, or is there some confirmation of these numbers of resources? 426833[/snapback] I've seen it in a bunch of different places. TV (one thing I saw on TV, for example, that I haven't seen in print is that FEMA deployed 40 emergency medical teams to NO, all arriving before today. They deployed something like 24 in ALL of the hurricanes last year), links, newspapers. Some of it is in the links I posted yesterday somewhere. People assume that, because the response can't keep up with conditions, it's weak. It's not, the response is immense. 50k troops, a naval task force, medical and rescue teams from all over the country (the Swiftboat guys from California saved hundreds of lives yesterday) deployed in less than a week is an incredible feat. If it's still not enough for conditions, that doesn't mean it's not an incredible feat...it just shows how ungodly horriffic the conditions are. Like I've said before: New Orleans has ceased to exist as a city. For all the support the region can provide to the response forces, we might as well be trying to pull 50k people out of the Amazon basin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fischer Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Rudy's administration had a long history of exerting good municipal control over NYC. He had much better management skills than this yahoo in New Orleans, and I don't recall his emergency services ever abandoning him. Hell, I don't even know if he's a Republican or Democrat. And I generally don't like his politics, not since he grossly abused RICO to take down Drexel-Burnham. But keep pretending everything's a partisan issue. 426835[/snapback] I'm not pretending there is partisanship. Yet you seem to go overboard in defending the Feds. Abandoned the NO Mayor? That's grossly unfair and distortful. An insult to the emergency service personnel who are doing what they can with almost nothing for a few days. So the 9/11 went better solely because of Rudy?? Please. Not even Rudy (who I like and deserves credit for his leadership in that situation) would ever say that the situation is remotely similar. What would have happened if all of NYC was firebombed and in the process most of the emergency services were rendered inoperable? Disaster, that's what. But that's not what happened. As it was, 9/11 was a big fire in comparison, confined to a very small area with fully operational emergency services. It was horrible for a day or so but NOTHING incomparison to Katrina and you have no idea if the NO mayor would have matched Rudy in 9/11. Oh, I forgot, you have a magic ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 I've seen it in a bunch of different places. TV (one thing I saw on TV, for example, that I haven't seen in print is that FEMA deployed 40 emergency medical teams to NO, all arriving before today. They deployed something like 24 in ALL of the hurricanes last year), links, newspapers. Some of it is in the links I posted yesterday somewhere. People assume that, because the response can't keep up with conditions, it's weak. It's not, the response is immense. 50k troops, a naval task force, medical and rescue teams from all over the country (the Swiftboat guys from California saved hundreds of lives yesterday) deployed in less than a week is an incredible feat. If it's still not enough for conditions, that doesn't mean it's not an incredible feat...it just shows how ungodly horriffic the conditions are. Like I've said before: New Orleans has ceased to exist as a city. For all the support the region can provide to the response forces, we might as well be trying to pull 50k people out of the Amazon basin. 426853[/snapback] Whats amazing(do not know why I'm shocked) is that I heard the exact opposite on a TV report. Some reporter who said that two days after Charley, they had quadruple the field hospitals set up. And I agree about the conditions. Like I said a few days ago, we got hit here with a little ole CAT 1 a few years ago, and this city barely operated for a week. And we didn't have the standing water to deal with!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 You have to keep in mind that FEMA, like any governmant agency, has layer upon layer of buracracy. No one manager dares make a decision unless the one above gives their okay. It's not good, or right, that's just what it is. For anything to happen quickly in government, the directive has to come down from the top. If a certain president was paying attention and ordered swift response BEFORE Katrina hit, I think things would be happening a lot quicker. PTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 I'm not pretending there is partisanship. Yet you seem to go overboard in defending the Feds. Abandoned the NO Mayor? That's grossly unfair and distortful. An insult to the emergency service personnel who are doing what they can with almost nothing for a few days. That was inaccurate on my part. Lots stayed on in NO. But a lot of police have walked off the job. Not that I can blame them...but things like that are usually - almost always, I'd say - attributable to poor senior management. So the 9/11 went better solely because of Rudy?? Please. Not even Rudy (who I like and deserves credit for his leadership in that situation) would ever say that the situation is remotely similar. What would have happened if all of NYC was firebombed and in the process most of the emergency services were rendered inoperable? Disaster, that's what. But that's not what happened. As it was, 9/11 was a big fire in comparison, confined to a very small area with fully operational emergency services. It was horrible for a day or so but NOTHING incomparison to Katrina and you have no idea if the NO mayor would have matched Rudy in 9/11. 426855[/snapback] Which I said, if you'd bothered to pull your head out of your ass and read my entire post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Whats amazing(do not know why I'm shocked) is that I heard the exact opposite on a TV report. Some reporter who said that two days after Charley, they had quadruple the field hospitals set up. And I agree about the conditions. Like I said a few days ago, we got hit here with a little ole CAT 1 a few years ago, and this city barely operated for a week. And we didn't have the standing water to deal with!!!!!! 426860[/snapback] The media sucks. I heard FOX and CNN yesterday report on conditions at Charity Hospital. Two completely different and diametrically opposed stories. I was hearing about the FEMA deployments two days before the hurricane hit, though. Everyone right now is so stressed out over this, no one seems to be thinking back any farther than what happened yesterday. Makes for a lot of revisionist history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gross Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Whats amazing(do not know why I'm shocked) is that I heard the exact opposite on a TV report. Some reporter who said that two days after Charley, they had quadruple the field hospitals set up. And I agree about the conditions. Like I said a few days ago, we got hit here with a little ole CAT 1 a few years ago, and this city barely operated for a week. And we didn't have the standing water to deal with!!!!!! 426860[/snapback] Having the people there and the ability to get things done (and the priority on what it is that they are doing) are two different things. While you obviously can't dismiss the damage that Charley did, you can't compare the number and scope of the "projects" that needed doing in both cases. Using the field hospitals as an example, I'm sure it's easier to set up field hospitals on land than on water, and even if you find places to put the hospitals in ways they can be usable (with adequate electricity and supply routes, etc), then you have to worry about finding ways to get the people who need the help to the hospitals....That's without considering how much effort needs to go into search and rescue alone....better to pluck the people from the water alive than the alternative... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralonzo Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 In his defense, I don't think he has nearly the resources needed to fix this problem. 426657[/snapback] Well, he did once, but not anymore: Nice job, Mayor. And he has the stones to b*tch about Greyhound not sending enough buses. OTOH, gassing all those up would have bankrupted the city, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Whats amazing(do not know why I'm shocked) is that I heard the exact opposite on a TV report. Some reporter who said that two days after Charley, they had quadruple the field hospitals set up. And I agree about the conditions. Like I said a few days ago, we got hit here with a little ole CAT 1 a few years ago, and this city barely operated for a week. And we didn't have the standing water to deal with!!!!!! 426860[/snapback] Plus, there's a difference between "field hospitals" and "medical teams". I heard 40 medical teams...but a lot of them are apparently at one hospital (at the NO airport). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 If my neighbor throws up a moat of water around me then keeps digging deeper around my effing ass... And then says "Everything will be okay... Reap the rewards!" Then that system fails? I would be a screaming matha effer! Cloud it all you want, NOLA weathered the hurricane. Kinda like a guy stuffing 10 pounds of shist in a 5 pound bag then blaming the guy who gets covered in crap when the bag breaks when it was decided to start using a cheaper 5 pound bag. Hint: The guy stuffing the crap are the feds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Fischer Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 That was inaccurate on my part. Lots stayed on in NO. But a lot of police have walked off the job. Not that I can blame them...but things like that are usually - almost always, I'd say - attributable to poor senior management. Which I said, if you'd bothered to pull your head out of your ass and read my entire post. 426866[/snapback] Typical retort. I thought you were supposed to be the elitist, super genius, not-it-all. Your response seems very beneath you but perhaps not. You said it but you made the statement in a vacuum as if it had no impact on the comparison between the "leadership skills" of the two mayors. In fact, it's the whole point. Some emergency personnel may have "walked off the job" but it may be to save their OWN family in immediate, life/death situation. You have NO evidence to prove otherwise and of course that would have NOTHING to do with management ability. NONE. Of course, during the 9/11 situation -- that was never the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 Abandoned the NO Mayor? That's grossly unfair and distortful. An insult to the emergency service personnel who are doing what they can with almost nothing for a few days. New Orleans cops quitting in the middle of this, I would consider abandoning the mayor. They are and they have. (Source: the Baton Rouge Advocate website) Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of BiB Posted September 2, 2005 Share Posted September 2, 2005 I propose we siink an American city once every other year to training purposes. 426800[/snapback] Can I pick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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