Crap Throwing Monkey Posted September 1, 2005 Posted September 1, 2005 OK.. All jokes about the Canadian military aside, we're keen to help if needed: http://news.yahoo.com/s/cpress/20050901/ca...katrina_cda_aid Actually, the water purification system referenced is really something. After the tsunami it was set up in Sri Lanka: http://www.terradaily.com/2005/050204015405.2avtt95n.html If GW says he wants our help he'll get it! 426076[/snapback] Tell 'em to send body bags.
Deanster Posted September 1, 2005 Posted September 1, 2005 Little known fact. During WWI, Halifax Canada (where I live) was the scene of the largest ever man-made (non nuclear) explosion. Back then this was huge, particularly given the infrastructure in 1917. Our US friends (particularly Boston) came to our aid. This has not been forgotten almost 100 years later. Point being, friends help friends. Someone else can sort out the blame. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halifax_Explosion
Ghost of BiB Posted September 1, 2005 Posted September 1, 2005 Tell 'em to send body bags. 426081[/snapback] Graves registration and forensics are part of the support package. As are hospitals, transportation, shelters, and a myriad of other support. If you were going to send a complete hospital to a place filled with water, in what many here demand be done in 6 hours or less, how would you do it and where would you put it? There are no roads. There are no phones. Hospitals require power, water, once again etc. Evacuate people who should have already evacuated? That takes time. Sorry, the magic pixie dust is not going to improve the roads nor is it going to find a place to put people in the aforementioned 6 hour time frame. Oh, lets not forget that their are people attacking the relief forces because they are getting in the way of anarchy. There's a little thing called Title 10 authorities and the posse commitatus act. Where is Congress? To introduce a bill to allow active duty military forces to exercise domestic law enforcement requires something akin to an ammendment of the Constitution. The same people screaming for federal troops to control NO are the same ones who would NEVER consider or agree to that type of federal power were it suggested for domestic counter-terror operations. Well, the governemnt doesn't work that way. We have laws to protect your rights, it's been debated to death. One can't pick and choose and have it all ways. The DoD alone can provide a tremendous, almost miraculous support effort here. They are, and will, but the laws of the land have to be addressed and negotiated in the manner the country demands. It takes longer than a few hours.
SDS Posted September 1, 2005 Posted September 1, 2005 Little known fact. During WWI, Halifax Canada (where I live) was the scene of the largest ever man-made (non nuclear) explosion. Back then this was huge, particularly given the infrastructure in 1917. Our US friends (particularly Boston) came to our aid. This has not been forgotten almost 100 years later. Point being, friends help friends. Someone else can sort out the blame. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halifax_Explosion 426106[/snapback] who knew hockey pucks were so volatile?
Deanster Posted September 1, 2005 Posted September 1, 2005 who knew hockey pucks were so volatile? 426112[/snapback] Now you're pushing my buttons! Careful or I'll passive-aggressive you into submission!
cåblelady Posted September 1, 2005 Posted September 1, 2005 Now you're pushing my buttons! Careful or I'll passive-aggressive you into submission! 426116[/snapback] I gotta see this.
Deanster Posted September 1, 2005 Posted September 1, 2005 I gotta see this. 426139[/snapback] Whatever turns your crank!
eiregi Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 I just saw the FEMA Director on CNN admit they didn't know that the convention center was a refugee area... So they only planned an evac for the Superdome... Paula Zahn was incredulous... FEMA didn't know... 100 hours later... man this sucks... no politics here everyone associated looks bad
eiregi Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 By the way I just realized I should change my tagline... not appros anymore
Sound_n_Fury Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 "the economy can absorb this" I'm sure that is what's joe average is concerned about right now 425134[/snapback] Yep. That's pretty much how the Electronic Media approach these kind of stories...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 I just saw the FEMA Director on CNN admit they didn't know that the convention center was a refugee area... So they only planned an evac for the Superdome... Paula Zahn was incredulous... FEMA didn't know... 100 hours later... man this sucks... no politics here everyone associated looks bad 426178[/snapback] FEMA didn't know...New Orleans didn't tell them. It takes two sides to !@#$ up a communications channel. Like you said, everyone's covered in sh-- on that one. And it represents the bigger problem: the situation spiraled out of control rapidly. More quickly than anyone anticipated. It's not that the physical disaster wasn't prepared for, it's that the administrative disaster went well beyond anything anyone predicted very rapidly.
ExiledInIllinois Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 Should there have been controlling works where each canal meets the lake and other canals? That is, if one canal fails they can effectively shut off the water from leaving the lake and entering the city. Kinda like putting shut offs at every water device in your home?
ExiledInIllinois Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 FEMA didn't know...New Orleans didn't tell them. It takes two sides to !@#$ up a communications channel. Like you said, everyone's covered in sh-- on that one. And it represents the bigger problem: the situation spiraled out of control rapidly. More quickly than anyone anticipated. It's not that the physical disaster wasn't prepared for, it's that the administrative disaster went well beyond anything anyone predicted very rapidly. 426303[/snapback] Agree. Nobody could "talk." Communications were out... Police were having trouble, everybody was having trouble communicating. Christ, I am having trouble communicating. Then again what is new?
mcjeff215 Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 ...the police are saying the Astrodome is already filled with 5000 people. As in "full."
ajflutie Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 1 - the buses have unloaded at the astrodome - whatever happened to women and childrem first? 2 - 300 yrs ago the area was critical to shipments as they came down the Miss. River. Initially, shipments were ferryed out to sea as there was no deep water port. As things grew, it became apparent that they could eliminate the ferry system if they dredged material and allowed the bigger ships inland access. The city grew and levees were constructed, stopping the normal flood/drain process which distributes silty materials along the normal flood plain. So the elevation of the flood plains started to decrease, increasing the chances of floods. The city itself, build on river sediments, subsided as the underlying sediments compacted. 300 years later, the bowl. The Corp and others have said for years its only a matter of time. 3 - the City: first repair the levees - say a month at best. Next pump it dry, another month at best. Only then can the assessment and demolition begin. Because that's what I believe it will be; a demolition. After another 2-3 months underwater no stucture will be assessed as sound or safe. In additon, the surrounding soils and structural materials (i.e. wood) will have made it a risk to human health and the environment. So, the city will be demo'd. What do you do with all that debris? Environmental regulations will be suspended and a huge fire will be started, likely the only way to kill mold and bacteria in that much material. There is no where else to put it. The French Qtr will be left standing, somehow saved and remain as an island (literally) for tourists. Future construction should be only on higher ground (outside the City) and will likely be in support (housing for workers and offices) of the area's shipping and petrochemical industries. These are crucial to the national economy and will be maintained. But another New Orleans as we know it, I doubt it. 4 - refineries and piplines: do not expect them back up anytime soon. The "re-start" procedures will involve numerous safety checks and testing. It will be a month or more.
UConn James Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 President Bush just commented that the response to the situation is "unacceptable" and he stressed this word hard. For once, I agree with him. The FEMA director not only has his head up his ass, he's got his tongue sticking out. This happens when you appoint someone there who has zero experience. To all of those people saying that airlifts are impossible b/c there's nowhere to land... When did dropping supplies with parachutes become impossible? Wastage, for sure, but 30% of bottled water and MREs being usable is better than 0%. There's a time when, absent direct access, you need to do something, and with bottled water supplies, that was 2 days ago. Someone's sure to respond that the people aren't supposed to be there; well, they are there, and just like the people inside of the WTC, you can't just leave them. I know it's a rough situation, and nobody is asking for perfection. Problem solving skills went out the window in how to deal with this. A reporter on NBC said when he went to the outskirts of the city to resupply, the bus drivers were waiting there in empty buses saying they were afraid to go in. There was a friggin' 14-year-old kid yesterday who commandeered a bus and drove 7 hours to Houston. Christ! Bested by a 14-y.o.!!
ExiledInIllinois Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 Seems as I mentioned before, part of the levee repair is to seal off the canal at the mouth of the lake by driving piling to block off the flow from Lake Pontchartrain. You think this would have been their first choice? It didn't seem like a big area to dam in the first place and would have been easier since the flow would have already have been equalized at that point... Then they could have moved on to the breech. Anyway, I heard this is being done now. Given all the water involved and the importance of keeping the place dry, you would think they would have had a series of "check valves" incorporated into the canal system design? Basically, the house was flooding during the time they were puting their hand over the leak in the pipe, instead of reaching for an incorporated shut-off and running to the main. When the Chicago Loop flooded in the early 1990's that is exactly what they did. They buttoned up the controlling works at the lake and drew as much water (fully open at 40 feet) as they could from the works where I work and at Lockport, Illinois (next lock and dam). In New Orleans... I know there are two sets of sector-gated controlling works on the intercoastal at Harvey and Algiers. Since the moment the levee broke I wondered what effect they had? And if they could have used the same plan as they did here in Chicago and draw the water away? I think CTM had the radical idea of blowing the river levee? That had me thinking for sometime the same thing but, one that was controllable. I am glad something is working finally. I am just a little shocked that things took so long. By no means am I trying to knock them... Just ask questions. You assume they have the brightest thinkers and most creative personnel at moments notice to try anything. Not sure if the Corps is doing this "in-house" with thier own repair crews, probably not? If that is the case which I suspect, getting the contract in place probably added to the lag time... They will claim not but, given the magnitude of the storm and chaos, it would have been great knowing where your tools and assets are immediately. ??
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 Seems as I mentioned before, part of the levee repair is to seal off the canal at the mouth of the lake by driving piling to block off the flow from Lake Pontchartrain. You think this would have been their first choice? It didn't seem like a big area to dam in the first place and would have been easier since the flow would have already have been equalized at that point... Then they could have moved on to the breech. 426601[/snapback] I don't see how it would have mattered. The city still would have flooded from the breach in the lake levee. What I want to know was: why wasn't the city subdivided by internal levees? Anyone with even a passing book knowledge of shipbuilding knows you compartmentalize so that if the hull is breached only a few compartments have their integrity violated and not the whole ship. It makes sense to do the same thing to a city susceptible to catastrophic flooding...particularly since wise design would allow the internal levees to be used for emergency transportation routes in a crisis. The "why not" is probably cost, I know. I hope they have the good sense to do something like that when they rebuild. I think CTM had the radical idea of blowing the river levee? That had me thinking for sometime the same thing but, one that was controllable. No, I just said let the upstream flooding wash the city out. Never suggested blowing the levee. Though now that you mention it, if you're going to do it there's a lot more to be said for constructing the situation and having control of it rather than waiting for the river to crest...
ExiledInIllinois Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 I don't see how it would have mattered. The city still would have flooded from the breach in the lake levee. What I want to know was: why wasn't the city subdivided by internal levees? Anyone with even a passing book knowledge of shipbuilding knows you compartmentalize so that if the hull is breached only a few compartments have their integrity violated and not the whole ship. It makes sense to do the same thing to a city susceptible to catastrophic flooding...particularly since wise design would allow the internal levees to be used for emergency transportation routes in a crisis. The "why not" is probably cost, I know. I hope they have the good sense to do something like that when they rebuild. No, I just said let the upstream flooding wash the city out. Never suggested blowing the levee. Though now that you mention it, if you're going to do it there's a lot more to be said for constructing the situation and having control of it rather than waiting for the river to crest... 426614[/snapback] Good points. The compartmentalize idea sounds simple, isolate the water. Who knows money? Or they just don't want to take up valuable property with a fullproof design? In these situations, control seems to be the answer over stopping it... You are never gonna be able to stop it. Sending it somewhere else less harmful appears to be the answer.
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 Good points. The compartmentalize idea sounds simple, isolate the water. Who knows money? Or they just don't want to take up valuable property with a fullproof design? 426691[/snapback] I think that's how the Dutch do it, but I'm not sure. It all comes down to money; either budgetary or property (you don't collect property taxes on levees, after all). I doubt property is going to be an issue after this, though...there's plenty of construction that's going to have to be razed after this. I can't see how a house flooded to the eaves isn't a total loss, and I can't see how the city proper returns to more than half it's pre-storm population. Finding the land to build internal subdividing levees isn't going to be a problem. Actually doing it - finding someone to suggest it, getting it through committee meetings, getting funding, maintaining funding through election cycles - is another matter.
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