If Coy Wire is SOOOOOO BAD,

[CoachChuckDickerson]

He led the team in tackles for 2 games in a row? Honestly, some of you guys joke that he "piles on". Seems like we got a lot of that going on here with no proof in the puddin.

[VABills]

I haven't seen this game yet, but he does have an issue with picking up coverage on receivers. As I have mentioned before, not sure if it is zone and therefore he is correct in allowing the under stuff, but he does get beat on occassion deep. He is excellant in tackling and run support however.

 

Again in the GB game, it was more reception against him, but I still think it was the called coverage.

 

Wires fine as a backup IMHO.

[stevewin]

He led the team in tackles for 2 games in a row? Honestly, some of you guys joke that he "piles on". Seems like we got a lot of that going on here with no proof in the puddin.

420230[/snapback]

The proof for me is that I've actually watched him in the past. Have you? I haven't seen either of the preseason games, but before you try to claim he does not suck, you should actually try watching him instead of just going by some preseason tackle stats that won't necessarily tell the whole story. Watch and see if you observe what I have for his first three years:

 

1) how many tackles should he have had that he missed completely?

2) how many of his tackles were made 5-6 (or more) yards downfiled from where they should have been made - with him chasing from behind after the player went by him (with the carrier by then probably stopped/slowed by another defensive player)?

3) how many of those tackles were made downfield on players he was responsible for covering and failed to prevent from catching the ball?

4) how many tackles simply ended up in his lap due to missed plays by the reserve front seven he was probably playing with most of the night?

5) and yes - how many of those plays were him jumping on a player that essentially had already been stopped or held up by someone else (or a pile)?

 

Don't forget he is also playing against the other teams' scrubs - some of those plays may also simply be due to the other teams scrub being the offensive (pun intended) suck equivalent of him and missing their block/assignment on him.

 

Please watch him first before you try to defend him. If you had done that for the last three years you would not be defending him now.

 

Edit: BTW - here is a comment I just saw in another thread from another poster who actually watched the game:

 

Wire: Good athelete, lousy football player. His one solo tackle was the first play I've seen him make in a long time. He's usuallly half a second late to every play. He deserves the knickname "pile on". Cut him

 

Amazing the difference that can occur when opinions are formed based on actual observations.

[Reuben Gant]

Here is my bias: I don't care what Coy Wire can do, I hate watching him play football.

[CoachChuckDickerson]

The proof for me is that I've actually watched him in the past.  Have you?  I haven't seen either of the preseason games, but before you try to claim he does not suck, you should actually try watching him instead of just going by some preseason tackle stats that won't necessarily tell the whole story.  Watch and see if you observe what I have for his first three years:

 

1) how many tackles should he have had that he missed completely?

2) how many of his tackles were made 5-6 (or more) yards downfiled from where they should have been made - with him chasing from behind after the player went by him (with the carrier by then probably stopped/slowed by another defensive player)?

3) how many of those tackles were made downfield on players he was responsible for covering and failed to prevent from catching the ball?

4) how many tackles simply ended up in his lap due to missed plays by the reserve front seven he was probably playing with most of the night?

5) and yes - how many of those plays were him jumping on a player that essentially had already been stopped or held up by someone else (or a pile)?

 

Don't forget he is also playing against the other teams' scrubs - some of those plays may also simply be due to the other teams scrub being the offensive (pun intended) suck equivalent of him and missing their block/assignment on him. 

 

Please watch him first before you try to defend him.  If you had done that for the last three years you would not be defending him now.

 

Edit:  BTW - here is a comment I just saw in another thread from another poster who actually watched the game:

Amazing the difference that can occur when opinions are formed based on actual observations.

420262[/snapback]

 

I have watched him for the past three years. What I see is a decent backup and strong special teams player. Do I think he has the skills to be an every down stater, which seems to be the prerequisite for some clowns here, no I don't. FYI, you and the rest of the "pile on" crowd might want to look up the difference between a tackle and an assist.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

I haven't seen this game yet, but he does have an issue with picking up coverage on receivers.  As I have mentioned before, not sure if it is zone and therefore he is correct in allowing the under stuff, but he does get beat on occassion deep.  He is excellant in tackling and run support however. 

 

Again in the GB game, it was more reception against him, but I still think it was the called coverage. 

 

Wires fine as a backup IMHO.

420235[/snapback]

 

Someone refresh my memory. Wasn't Wire originally picked up for run support in Williams' 4-6? I seem to remember statements - probably from the same people now lambasting him - to the effect of "Oh, goody, we've got a run-stopping tackler of a safety for the 4-6!"

[Sound_n_Fury]

He led the team in tackles for 2 games in a row? Honestly, some of you guys joke that he "piles on". Seems like we got a lot of that going on here with no proof in the puddin.

420230[/snapback]

 

How many of those tackles were 10 yards down field?? By the time he recognizes the draw, the RB's 5 yards past the LOS. How many times will a WR with a short dump be running down field and CW will still have his back to the play struggling to cover a secondary receiver? The boy has no instincts for the SS position.

 

To throw him a bone, he did make a lot of ST tackles in the first half, however.

[stevewin]

I have watched him for the past three years. What I see is a decent backup and strong special teams player. Do I think he has the skills to be an every down stater, which seems to be the prerequisite for some clowns here, no I don't. FYI, you and the rest of the "pile on" crowd might want to look up the difference between a tackle and an assist.

420311[/snapback]

If you have actually watched the same Coy Wire I have since he was a rookie and have come to conclusion he is not simply awful than your understanding and assessment of football ability and talent is very different from mine.

[Reuben Gant]

Someone refresh my memory.  Wasn't Wire originally picked up for run support in Williams' 4-6?  I seem to remember statements - probably from the same people now lambasting him  - to the effect of "Oh, goody, we've got a run-stopping tackler of a safety for the 4-6!"

420314[/snapback]

Quick, don't think, spend 90 minutes shopping for shoes or watch Coy Wire's career highlight film?

[VABills]

How many of those tackles were 10 yards down field??  By the time he recognizes the draw, the RB's 5 yards past the LOS.  How many times will a WR with a short dump be running down field and CW will still have his back to the play struggling to cover a secondary receiver?  The boy has no instincts for the SS position.

 

To throw him a bone, he did make a lot of ST tackles in the first half, however.

420318[/snapback]

Ummm. The safety is thiird level typically 7-15 yards down field. The runner goes past the dline, through the lbers and then gets to the safety. It is also liekly the runner isn't running stright into the safety by the safety has to get an angle on him. So even in run support the safety is no closer then 7 yards from LOS, has to recognize play and then react. So yeah on run support the safety is going to make the play 5-10 yards down field. What they mean by run support from a safety is it allows the Lb'er to commit to a hole quicker and the safety react off the play. Rather then playing deep safety 15 yards down field and thinking pass first.

[Sound_n_Fury]

Ummm.  The safety is thiird level typically 7-15 yards down field.  The runner goes past the dline, through the lbers and then gets to the safety.  It is also liekly the runner isn't running stright into the safety by the safety has to get an angle on him.  So even in run support the safety is no closer then 7 yards from LOS, has to recognize play and then react.  So yeah on run support the safety is going to make the play 5-10 yards down field.  What they mean by run support from a safety is it allows the Lb'er to commit to a hole quicker and the safety react off the play.  Rather then playing deep safety 15 yards down field and thinking pass first.

420322[/snapback]

 

He's playing too deep because he can't run with the TE's and end's up in no-man's land too often. I don't see LM running around like a chicken with his head cut off like that...he recoginizes the play and reacts twice as fast as CW. Wire's mental game is what's held him back (although he's supposedly an intelligent guy). He's just not cut out to be a DB, IMO.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Quick, don't think, spend 90 minutes shopping for shoes or watch Coy Wire's career highlight film?

420320[/snapback]

 

I'll watch Wire's highlight film, then take an 88-minute nap.

[Reuben Gant]

I'll watch Wire's highlight film, then take an 88-minute nap. 

420340[/snapback]

perfect answer.

[CoachChuckDickerson]

He's playing too deep because he can't run with the TE's and end's up in no-man's land too often.  I don't see LM running around like a chicken with his head cut off like that...he recoginizes the play and reacts twice as fast as CW.  Wire's mental game is what's held him back (although he's supposedly an intelligent guy).  He's just not cut out to be a DB, IMO.

420339[/snapback]

 

Sooooo, how did he led the team in tackles for 2 games in a row that he sucked in? I guess he was so slow to react that guys just ran into him. Once again, he is not stating talent but he is a decent backup and strong special teams player, which is why he makes the final roster every year.

[VABills]

He's playing too deep because he can't run with the TE's and end's up in no-man's land too often.  I don't see LM running around like a chicken with his head cut off like that...he recoginizes the play and reacts twice as fast as CW.  Wire's mental game is what's held him back (although he's supposedly an intelligent guy).  He's just not cut out to be a DB, IMO.

420339[/snapback]

You're gonna compare a multiple Pro bowl safety to a 3rd year second stringer who is switching from is natural position? I too wish we had pro bowlers even at our backup spots but you just can't do it. I feel more comfortable with Wire at backup safety then I currently do with any of our backup Lb'ers. In my opinion, that crew is the bigger problem with why wire struggles.

[Sound_n_Fury]

You're gonna compare a multiple Pro bowl safety to a 3rd year second stringer who is switching from is natural position?  I too wish we had pro bowlers even at our backup spots but you just can't do it.  I feel more comfortable with Wire at backup safety then I currently do with any of our backup Lb'ers.  In my opinion, that crew is the bigger problem with why wire struggles.

420360[/snapback]

 

Yep. I want effective play from my backups. CW's learned nothing in the time he's spent in the position and is the same player he was three years ago.

 

At some point in the season he's going to be on the field, guaranteed (remember the Jax game?). If we keep getting the same results, that called insanity, BTW.

 

Tackle stats don't mean much if they're never difference makers. You can make all the tackles you want, but if you can't get the other team off the field you're a loser (sort of like that 77-yard TD drive the Bears had last night...).

[VABills]

Yep.  I want effective play from my backups.  CW's learned nothing in the time he's spent in the position and is the same player he was three years ago. 

 

At some point in the season he's going to be on the field, guaranteed (remember the Jax game?).  If we keep getting the same results, that called insanity, BTW.

 

Tackle stats don't mean much if they're never difference makers.  You can make all the tackles you want, but if you can't get the other team off the field you're a loser (sort of like that 77-yard TD drive the Bears had last night...).

420373[/snapback]

And who are you going to replace him in a 4-6 run support defense, where that is his prime job?

[DrDawkinstein]

im not a big coy wire fan. he's definitely not a starting safety. but...

 

if youre going to knock him for making tackles in the defensive backfield, you have to knock the D-line and the LBs in front of him that let the runner through. he's supposed to be in the backfield, so that's where he'll tackle. i see a bigger problem with our backup LBs as well. and dont believe the hype that the team and Tasker have been feeding you, our backup LBs are not that good.

 

Wire cant cover worth a darn, i said last year we will not be able to win a game til Milloy returned. he probably wasnt the only thing hampering us, but he's a major liability out there on First string D.

 

that being said, he's not first string. He's GREAT on special teams, and every team needs a guy who is the clear cut special teams leader. he's that guy. i think his play on ST is part of what brings the rest of the ST squad up.

 

i know i contradict myself a little but we're arguing over a SECOND STRINGER.

i see him as a Special Teams captain first and a safety second.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

To try to answer your question as specifically as I can from someone who has watched the game and is happy to reinforce or getting me to take a second look at what I thought I saw by looking at the stats, this is my sense of Wire:

 

Overall: Good athlete who impressed scouts at the Combine showing good speed for a player with the level of intellectual potential which got him into Stanford where he showed some good aggressive play as a tacler there at LB. The combination of his speed, willingness to risk his body and intellectual capacity made him a good pick-up to be trained to be a contributing NFL player.

 

A bonus is that his quality as a person also has shown itself in the NFL where he has earned the respect of his coaches and teammates to at one point be named a captain of the ST unit (a position I doubt he still holds because his on-field production has lagged and even sucked) and he has been a contributor to the WNY community with a lot of charity work.

 

Specifics: However, charity work is great but a player has to prove it on the field and Wire has not done this. In part, this may because GW/Gray made such a misassesment of how much former TN player Jenkins had left they signed him to be starting SS Wire's year and he did not have enough left to be a credible starter that we ended up with a huge hole at SS.

 

It is actually a tribute to Wire's athleticism and brains that he could be thrown in as starting SS on an NFL team though he had never played safety before at any level of organized ball. However, this tribute simply means he was merely grossly inadequate as a safety rather than he was as bad as Jenkins was and could not play at all.

 

As a rookie Wire was in over his head at starting SS but that was most apparent in his pass coverage and that he was fooled by deceptions by opposing Os. His poor production was one of the reasons the 2002 D performed poorly and ended up having to pay through the nose to get Milloy when he suddenly hit the market after our attempts to get Cota and Battle resulted in signings and retirements.

 

2003 saw the same pass coverage failings (we did beat NE 31-0 but almost lost the shutout when Wire blew the hail Mary pass coverage at the end of the game and took an interference call in the endzone. Fortunately (but to no effect in the season) the D heldstout on the goalline and at least got the shutout. The Bills tried Wire at starting FS, but the pass coverage and diagnostic issues were even more severe there, and he failed here as well.

 

The Bills finally got the right idea and attempted to fashion him into an ST ace, but sending him out to do this with minimal focus on this as he was trying unsuccessfully to be a position player was a disaster. GW's buddy who was co-ordinating ST at the time made the dumb reccomendation of having Wire attempt to block a punt in a game where they had a 7 point lead on Cincy and if they managed to get a couple of 1st from the transfer of the ball they would sin.

 

GW stupidly took this recomendation and the team lined up so that Wire came in unblocked. According to a good source like Steve Tasker about ST analysis, Wire took an angle on blocking this kick that A: Was hard to make work unless he got right in on top of the kick and B. if/when Wire missed the kick he would barrel into the kicker which he did giving CIN 15, the first and eventually OT which fortunately we won.

 

Should Wire have known how to be an ST star himself, yeah it would be great though few (actually no since even Tasker said one has to really learn and practice good ST play before one produces) players do this. Do GW and his ST Co-ord deserve any blame for not appropriately developing Wire> Yep. In fact I think they deserve a lot of blame for the total mismangement of his career and the D here until LeBeau came in and brought a good scheme.

 

As far a Wire as an individual player, the question is whether it is too late to do anything with him. My sense is just about but the answer is no that he can still play a valuable role here and will likely get one more chance to show he is a Bill on the field as well as off.

 

1. He is not capable of being a starting safety. His pass coverage skills are not good enough. He is currently the back-up and started a few games when Milloy went down last year but having him start is simply not a viable long-term strategy.

 

2. Is there a viable position player role for him? I don't think so. He is too small for a Pro LB role and has not shown the ability to make the reads necessary for him to be a starting safety.

 

3. Can he be an ST Ace? Doubtful at this point as development time has been wasted with the safety experiments. His major ST lacking if one wanted him to become the new Tasker is that he has not show the ball handling skills which back-up WR Tasker developed so that his role on the return team beyond trying to be some super wedge guy is not clear.

 

He had played some RB and as a return guy in HS abd college and if the Bills were gonna throw the dartboard for this "tweener" with talent when he became a Bill, he would have better landed at resevre WR or RB rather than at safety.

 

He strikes me that his problem may actually be one of over-enthusiasm as he has struggled with ST. He took some bad angles on tackles like a case against Santana Moss where both he and alleged ST Ace Stephenson were fooled in 2003 (fortunately Prioleaux had the intelligence to stay in his lane but the speed to recover and drag down Moss andturn the 7 into 3 that game).

 

Last nights work by Wire on ST was actually quite impressive. He made 2 or 3 initial ST stops which were tackles and not piling on. It may not be too late for him. the big thing for us is that the only replacement for him on our roster appears to be Leonhard who also has the package, but he is slotted in at FS rather than SS aand though the Bills D uses the S positions in similar ways, the Bills would likely be making the same rushing Leonhard along mistakes they made with Wire if the getting older Milloy goes down again.

 

My sense is you keep Wire who is under contract as a back-up and really emphasize quality ST from him. he either steos up or not. You then pray Milloy does not get hurt and try to develop Leonhard as a future safety back-up and ST Ace (he has he ballhandling skills) and don;t rush him along either.

[stevewin]

3rd year second stringer who is switching from is natural position?

Oh PLEASE - I thought all this "switching from his natural position" crap was over. He is lining up on the football field as a safety. Therefore, he is a safety. That is his position! He's been a safety for THREE FRICKIN YEARS. If he wants to play in the NFL, he needs to do it as a safety. That is his position. He is a safety. If he can't play safety, then he should be cut. He is a safety. That is what he is. A safety. Not an undersized linebacker. Not a running back. A safety.

 

I feel more comfortable with Wire at backup safety then I currently do with any of our backup Lb'ers.  In my opinion, that crew is the bigger problem with why wire struggles.

 

First, I think generally the consensus is that our backup LBs are some of the best in the league. Second - this attempt at an exuse kind of breaks down when you consider that he has sucked since he was a rookie playing with one of the best starting LB units in the league every time he has played in the regular season.