Film review of Green Bay game

[Coach Tuesday]

Good analysis. One point in particular interests me: it seems to be universally accepted that Geisenger was a bust pick, at least in terms of contributing within the next year or two. If that's the case, it's a real shame - wasn't he heralded as one of the best pulling guards in the country? I was excited by his potential. Too bad.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

Actually part of the subterfuge is for it to look like a passplay so Lee should not be looking like he's trying to take a handoff, his head should be upfield where it was. And in the QB/RB exchange the RB's only responsibility is to have his hands in the proper cradle position to accept the handoff; the real onus is on the QB to watch his target and jam it in there tight so the back can keep his eyes upfield and watch the flow developing.

It was a complex play to be sure. But since the QB is the one doing most of the selling/motions, the RB needs to be cognizant enough to stay right next to him at all times, because all he's doing is basically standing there looking like a blocker. He should have been right next to JP, using his peripheral vision to look for JP to extend his arm. Lee was not only too far away, he was late in going for the handoff, thus the play failed on 2 levels.

[MadBuffaloDisease]

Good analysis.  One point in particular interests me:  it seems to be universally accepted that Geisenger was a bust pick, at least in terms of contributing within the next year or two.  If that's the case, it's a real shame - wasn't he heralded as one of the best pulling guards in the country?  I was excited by his potential.  Too bad.

You can't call a 6th round pick a "bust," especially not after a scrimmage and 2 pre-season games. Geisinger was considered a project, thus his draft status. And he was a college OT, who was considered a prototypical OG. He'll probably take some time to get there, so I wouldn't write him off just yet. Probably needs to hit the weight room hard this year and work on his technique with JMac.

[canbuffan34]

Monkeyed with the clicker for a while this morning and came up with these:

 

>Ron Edwards sin't creating much push or penetration upfield, but he's moving laterallly better than I've ever seen him.

>EKing is the starting dimebacker for now, but is playing some nervous ball. He's so worried about giving up downfield completions that guys are working him underneath. This will be a problem since he's usually seeing the field only on 3rddown where he needs to protect the sticks, not the deep ball.

>Saw the Bills using a little of what they used to call the Ruby package; the 3 safeties on teh field were Milloy, Vincent and Baker.

>Tim Anderson didn't look nearly as effective vs teh Pack as he did vs the Colts. Both Denney and Bannon did look pretty good against the Green Bay reserves.

>Coy Wire special of the night: He commited a flagrant clip on the puntreturn Haddad fumbled, which could have wiped out the penalty that bailed us out. Even worse, when he hit the guy from behind he blocked him directly into Haddad which was what actually forced the fumble. I like ya' Coy but you might be in some trouble when the Turk rolls around.

>Bennie Anderson looks absolutely awful. If he doesn't show significant improvement very quickly I hope the Bills kick Duke Preston over to LG and give him some snaps with the starting unit as he's looked very good.

>On the plus side it's a real treat to watch Teague and Vilarial working together; they are putting on a great show. Props also to Campbell whose work in the groundgame was very good: props also to the Bills staff for recognizing and hiding players' weaknesses as they didn't ask Campbell to passprotect at all last night, an areea in which he's really struggled.

>I like Lee Evans' game, but if he wants to be a complete WR in this league, he must block. Maybe he's saving it for when the games count, which is fine, but he'll hurt this offense in the regular season if he doesn't put forth a more concerted effort.

>A couple plays before JP's TD, McGahee took a vicious shot on the knee from the Packer strongside 'backer; one of those AWinfield style :I starred in Brokeback Mountain: tackles. If I had been watching live it would have scared the crap out of me, but Willis got right up.

>A nod to Daimon SHelton who appears to have picked up right where he left off. No slow start for him this year.

>Also a nod to Reshard Lee who in addition to the return and some good running, also flashed some agressive blocking and some heads up work on a broken play that JP took for a positive gain.

>Speaking of JP, he looked a little more skittish out there than he did vs the Colts. I won't harp on it because he got results but he is looking way too eager to leve the pocket, even at times when his OLine has put together a solid one for him. I do like what I'm seeing in the red zone and think the Bills can be far more efficient there than they were with Bledsoe. Also still impressed with his ability to feel pressure without seeing it and for the most part move to open space while keeping his head downfield; this maybe a result of all the practice he had doing at Tulane. Another thing I liked is that both times his receivers had drops (Evans and Reed) he went right back to them for first downs on the very next play; that's veteran football. On the negative side he really hung Moulds out to dry and owes him a sincere apology; that was an awful decision and somebody needs to make him aware of it. And I'm not agreeing with all this talk about him needing to learn to slide. He did get caught once in the COlts game where he should have gone down but in the Green Bay game I had no problem with his decisions. The one time he got licked it was third down and if he's have slid he'd have been short and the Bills TD drive would have ended in a FG attempt. The other time was in the 2:00 drill when he was just trying to get OB and came up a couple inches short; neither of those instance is a situation where he neesd to be laying down early.

>Really liked what I saw of Aaron Schobel defending the groundgame; he was a definite force at the POA. On the other side Kelsay struggled a bit and was generally inefective all night.

>Found it interesting that Mularkey yanked Holcomb in the middle of a drive, immediately following the play when he took off upfield and tried to thrwo a block. We know you want to play Kelly, but save it for when we need it.

>I'm a little worried about Nate Clements this year for a couple reasons. One is that he is attacking the run so aggresively that he's leaving space between him and the sidelines and he's trying to kill everybody he sees, which is fine 'til he hurts himself attacking a 320lb guard. The other reason is that I'm praying that his great effort last year hasn't made him overconfident. Favre abused him with a miniscule pumpfake and I wonder if Nate might want the ball so bad that he's going to start jumping way too many first moves. If he wants to stay as consistent as he was last year he really needs to pick his spots.

>Geisinger and Jerman are both absolutely horrible and neither one of them can play in this league. I'm gettting a little worried about the Bills depth on the OLine.

>The Packers run as many picks on offense as anybody around. But they're really good at it and will likely get away with all year.

>When Donahoe/Modrak came on board I was really excited because I watched them work in Pburgh and figured they would get rid of any of the Bills shrinking violets (Price, Carpenter, etc). They did but there's still one guy out there driving me nuts and that continues to be Posey. It's bad enough when he's coming unblocked and then whiffing on 40yrold QB's twice (right before they throw TD's) or that rookie ARodgers can make him look like EddieRobinson, but I can't take much more of watching him run away from contact. For gawd's sakes he's turning his back on rookie TE's instead of taking them on and tip-toeing through the wash instead of busting people up. The guy does next to nothing for this defense and like to see somebody else at least get a shot. I'm not convinced Stamer is the answer and am not particular liking what I'm seeing from Haggan; I'd have no problem if the Bills kicked Crowell out to the strongside just to see what he could do there.

>Another thing I wish this staff would do is let us see what Ritzman looks like against NFL starters. Not only are they giveing Schobel waaayyy more snaps than he needs, but they've got Gause in front of him on the depth chart even though Ritzman does nothing but make plays every time he gets on the field. Against GB he didn't even see the field 'til late and only got to play 2 drives yet still managed to get his hands on Packer QB's no less  than 5 different times. Give this kid a look earlier coach.....please!

>I'm not convinced Reed dropped that fleaflicker, as the DB was diving for the ball before it came in and had an arm fully extended right in front of Josh. If he got a fingertip on it (which is entirely possible) I can't fault Reed for not pulling in a ball that was deflected directly in front of him. I know he's got the dropsies bad the last couple years, but he was by far the best blocking WR on the field last night and can be really effective converting 3rddowns. Between college and his rookie season I've seen enough that I'm not giving up on the kid yet.

A couple general thoughts:

Those complaining about the Bills rungame thusfar are out in left field as far as I'm concerned. Aside from Anderson, everybody looks good up front and Willis is averagn almost 4yrds/carry while barely even getting out of the 1stqrtr. A good ground attack always gets better as the game progresses and if we average 4yrds/pop during the 1st qrtr we could be mangling people late.

It doesn't matter what unit it is, or who's playing on it. Our ST's look absolutely dominant in all phases of the game. What a spectacular job by the Bills staff and front office. They might win us a couple games this year on thier own.

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Good post Simon and I agree with your analysis except maybe 2 points

1) Benny Anderson I thought did a good job vs. KGB for the time he was in there as Bjaja-milaha(sp) was invisible until Anderson's backup took the field.

2) I think Drew Haddad has shown enough to warrant the #4 wr spot this year, particularly because he fills two positions on the club as wr and pr.

[NJ_BillsFan]

Great review.  Tell me why you aren't sold on Stamer.  I watched him and thought he imposed his will fairly well out there. 

 

t-r

 

Oh yeah, you couldn't be more correct about Ritzzman.  That kid looks fantastic and I'd like to see him against even second stringers.

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Stamer reminds me of Chris Spielman. He runs around like a maniac looking to kill someone. Even if his helmet pops off he would still look to spear the RB. Stamer is a pyscho. I love it.

[IDBillzFan]

Good read, Simon. I get to finally sit down with a beer and watch tonight. But that was a good read. The only thing that could make it better would be the occassional carriage return.

[Simon]

I get to finally sit down with a beer and watch tonight.....The only thing that could make it better would be the occassional carriage return. 

 

Do you mean just putting a space between each little bullet like so?

 

When you're watching the game tonight keep an eye out for a play that might draw a real double take from you. With about 6-8 minutes left in the half GB runs a toss-sweep to the left (on 1stdown I think) and Nate comes up and stones the play. If you're watching the trenches you'll see Sam Adams throw the RG on the ground and then actually hurdle him while he's sprinting down the LOS to string the back along. It's absolutely outrageous to see a 350lb man moving like that. I think it comes just a couple snaps before Adams beats the Center like a drum to sack Rodgers and end the GB possession. Make sure you check it out, its one of those moments that's sort of frighteningly funny.

Cya

[BuffBills#1]

Eric King isn't the nickel back, Jabari Greer is. King will probably be the 5th corner when thomas comes back. Anderson didn't look that bad, the TD run was because of Gandy and Anderson laying some nice blocks. Some of what you said was worthless, like the Clements thing, but it was good to see someone else's view of the game.

[34-78-83]

Some of what you said was worthless, like the Clements thing

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[Simon]

Eric King isn't the nickel back, Jabari Greer is.

 

That's why I said "EKing is the starting dimebacker for now".

 

Some of what you said was worthless,

 

Yes, it certainly pales in comparison to all your thorough and insightful reviews.

[Bill from NYC]

"Some of what you said was worthless"

 

Yes, it certainly pales in comparison to all your thorough and insightful reviews. 

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Hey Simon, please keep those "worthless" comments coming!

WTF do you know about defensive backs?!

I am LMFAO!

[Simon]

Hey Simon, please keep those "worthless" comments coming!     

WTF do you know about defensive backs?!

I am LMFAO!

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They're just so cute at that age.

[Catholic Guilt]

Many thanks for some detailed and often sage observations.

 

Outside of including the usual rants on Posey that include no examples of anybody he had responsibility for or directly took on scoring a TD or even getting a bid gain these observations look pretty solid.  When I look at the tape again I will keep an eye out for Rodgers making Posey look like Eddie Robinson as this is the most measurable indictment you make which is not just a complaint that this pro is observed by an amateur turning the wrong way but fortunately no one scored or got a big gain due to the Posey faux pas.

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POSEY? He's the invisible man!

[stevewin]

Thanks Simon - I was just thinking the other day that I haven't heard Shelton mentioned all training camp. Good to see he is still in good form.

 

It is a good point about WRs blocking. Do you remember Evans shying away from that last year? You may also be spoiled watching your favorite wideout and expecting similar Hines-esque downfield blocking from our receivers . It was interesting what Rubeo said earlier in this thread about WRs working on blocking.

 

Good to see Schobel being stiff against the run - never really his strong point. Kind of surprised about Kelsey - seems to be having a good camp from what is being said.

 

You already commented on Stamer - what don't you like about Haggan?

 

Do the things you saw w/ Anderson look correctable - or do you really think he will bust?

 

Of all the things said about JP - the comment about him being able to feel the pressure actually makes me feel the best at this point. That is something that it seems QBs either innately have or don't - it is good to think that our boy might have it. Based on other reports and his performance so far he also seems like he's been good at throwing away from defenders - so the combination of pocket presence and not throwing interceptions would really be a great one - esp for a team w/ a great defense, STs, and RB that isn't asking the QB to do it all.

[Simon]

Do you remember Evans shying away from that last year?

No I don't. I kind of rememebr thinking that he's not real good at it yet, but he's not bad for a rookie. And that if he wasn't always effective that at least he was willing, which hinted that he might eventually become proficient. The other night he really didn't even look interested in taking anybody on. The fact that it was a departure from last year is what made me wonder if he's just taking it easy in the preseason, which I have no problem with.

I also found it interesting that the staff had them working intensely on thier blocking drills in the next practice. I wonder if they didn't like what they saw either.

 

Good to see Schobel being stiff against the run - never really his strong point. Kind of surprised about Kelsey - seems to be having a good camp from what is being said.

Yeah Schobel almost loks like he's right on the edge of becoming a compelte and even a premier DE. I'm not worried about Kelsay though; he looked fine against the Colts and it wasn't like he was getting whupped v GreenBay, just wasn't gettting to the play much.

 

You already commented on Stamer - what don't you like about Haggan?

I just didn't think he looked like he belonged on the same field with the rest of the pros. He struggled when asked to cover, he was slow to the ball, he didn't look stout, etc. It wasn't like he was loafing, just looked sort of physically overmatched. It's hard to put a finger on but an old Sesame Street dirge comes to mind: "One of these things is not like the others".

 

Do the things you saw w/ Anderson look correctable - or do you really think he will bust?

I'm not going there yet. He didn't look bad or anything, just sort of ineffective. But on the otehr hand he was a real pain in the ass for the Colt offense the week before. I've really only watched him play a total of about 1 game yet so he's sort of in the same wait'n'see category that he's been in for the 18 months since he was drafted.

 

the comment about him being able to feel the pressure actually makes me feel the best at this point. That is something that it seems QBs either innately have or don't - it is good to think that our boy might have it.

Yeah that ability to feel w/o looking almost does seem congenital. Like your brain needs to be able to access and evaluate information re: peripheral vision and sound without having to put the actual subject directly into the field of view. There's been a bunch of instances where the pocket was closing up at a couple points and JP neatly escaped via the best route available while still keeping his eyes downfield, and that to me is the key. A couple times he's turned his back to get away (like the safety) or started looking at the rush, but those instances have been pretty rare from what I've seen.

 

Cya

 

P.S. If you'd have seen Wire clip that guy right into Haddad and forcing the fumble, you may have eaten your television.

[stevewin]

P.S. If you'd have seen Wire clip that guy right into Haddad and forcing the fumble, you may have eaten your television. 

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The things I've seen... - at this point I am pretty much resigned/numb to all his on-field exploits (or should I say exploitations)

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

The play where he came free into the backfield and whiffed twice on Favre the Pack scored a TD because he didn't do his job.

The play where he was falling all over himself rookie Rogers ran right up his lane for a big gain.

I beleive one of the times I saw him turn his back and abandoned the POA, the Pack ran over him for a first down but Spikes came over and made the tackle downfield.

I wish we had somebody who could legitimately push him. I just want to see what a different player "looks" like in that position in Gray's D. At this point I don't even care who it is. Hell plug Ezekial in there; he'll get pounded but at least he'll engage and hold..... and maybe bite a chunk out of somebody.

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Simon, thanks again for your detailed comments. I have not had to go back to the tape yet but plan to do so before the week is out and I will look at the plays you mentioned.

 

Even still despite my respect for the good eye you have shown on many things in the past I do not find your vitriol on Posey very compelling. Your comments about him turning the wrong way or having bad positioning or being so bad simply did not correspond with the reality that one could not also cite last year how this bad play corresponded to TDs by the opponents or even big gains.

 

If he was as worthless as you seem to indicate in his play last year it does not correspond that the D could be so statistically effective with a bad player starting 16 games and logging a ton of PT in a critical role or even if he was a weak link why opposing OCs didn't constantly pick on him for scores and big gains that even the doofuses in the media would eventrually notice.

 

I hope you saw and would love your comments on a detailed analysis done by a Bills poster (CJ Nittan I think) of the role Posey played in the Colts game (might have been the scrimmage aginst GB but I think it was the Colts game).

 

Basically according to Nittan's (or whomever it was) observations, the key to Posey's play was that he seemed to be asked by Gray in our zone blitz to make a read whether he thought it would be a running play or a passing play. The result ended up for about a 50/50 split of him dropping back into pass coverage or going to the POA of a run (note that hiis responsiblity on a run may be to pass cover if the run blitz has others guarding the run so it depends on what we call whether he did the right thing rather than their call).

 

Regardless of what we judge about his particular coverage, the play worked well for the Bills as our D slapped around the opposing O. If Posey did what he was asked and expected to do in our D and that D was successful, I couldn't really care less about our individual assessments of his play positioning or leverage because what WE did worked and stopped the opponent.

 

There is a legit question whether our assessment of poor Posey positioning is a weaknes which later can be exploited. However, this question ends up getting answered on the field by if opposing OCs are picking on this weakeness effectively.

 

This is why real world results are important. Last year with the Bills finishing 2nd in the NFL statistically and not even Posey critics such as yourself being able to site examples last year where his alleged bad play resulted in many or any examples of TDs or big gains, the proof is in the reality that this Posey issue was a non-problem last year.

 

For this year we only have a couple of pre-season games and a scrimmage to go with so it is still a bit too early to draw conclusions based on pre-season play. Yet, I will look with real interest at the case you cite because they at least are now attached to specific negative outcomes.

 

Overall it still is pre-season so these items even if Posey is at fault are merely examples and not trends yet barring additional real world examples. In addition, seeing the tape may add to and improve my thinking, but as far as the theory the Nittan analysis still makes more sense in terms of explaining why the overall Bills D results were so good last year and explaining why the Bills braintrust has relied so heavily on Posey if he is in fact as bad as you say.

 

Nittan actually hatched a new word to me "The Keeper" to describe the position Posey is utilized to play by Gray in our zone blitz. This Keeper position plays SLB, but plays it flexibly depending on what our zone blitz is doing.

 

In this analysis, the Bills D produces good results with Posey as Keeper because he:

 

1. Reads plays well and either drops back or moves to the run POA well as is requited in our zone blitz (where I think it is actually Fletcher who is calling the shots though i was very impressed with Haggan calling plays as a reserve in the Colts game). This is a difference which one would never see on the stat sheet and outside of the results achieved by the D (which were generally very good with Posey at SLB last year as the D finished 2nd statistically) is difficult for us outsiders to judge accurately.

 

2. Has the ability to line up essentially as a DL player in a three point stance on the outside. Orginally when we got Posey as an FA from Tex we were wowed by the 8 sacks he rung up in their 3-4 (at last I know I said we would get some LB help for our DEs who were far weaker on the pass rush than I was used to having been spoiled by years of Brrruuuccee doing the rushing for us).

 

However, though Posey often lines up as a down lineman (something many faster but lighter LBs cannot do well) he does this in the Bills zone blitz not as a pass rusher but specializing more as a run stopper (specifically the area whereMM most recetnly sang Posey's praises).

 

I think many of us are disappointed in Posey because he never registered the sacks we expected and wanted seeing occaisions like the one where he sacked David Carr and knocked the ball lose and knocked him out of the game. However, it doesn't look like he is called upon much to blitz in our D and his first duties are to stop the run so Spikes and Fletcher can roam free and tackle and sack. His secondduty is pass coverage and the sack game is his third responsibility.

 

3. Nittan also observed that the player who seemed to occupy this "keeper" role when Posey as getting a blow or lined up differently in our tricky zone blitz was none other than the often ragged upon Ryan Denney.

 

This observation and usage is consistent with Denney's talent and the usage of him I have seen where he actually has surprising athleticism and his hue wignspan so he is effective in pass coverage, but also our starting DT Phat Pat only saw less than 60% of the D snaps last year and there was even a point where Adams was butching publicly about being sat down on third down. I think this was in part because our D ran 3 DE sets where Denney was judged to be strong enough against the run that he played this Keeper role and could make good reads to either cover passes or plug the POA.

 

i will look again, but there is still the basic questions of if Posey is so bad, why did the Bills D do so well and if Posey is so bad why didn't opposing OCs pick on this weak link and rip him and the D a new one last year.

 

The notion that Posey is so bad simply does not track with the real world output and actions by our braintrust.

[BuffBills#1]

Basically what you said was worthless to me, that is all. You know nothing about Clements or Evans blocking, or anything like that. You're just posting blabber to me. Let the real people critique people, and you can go get your can of beer and sit back down on your coach. Don't take it the wrong way or anything though.

[Simon]

Your comments about him turning the wrong way or having bad positioning or being so bad simply did not correspond with the reality that one could not also cite last year how this bad play corresponded to TDs by the opponents or even big gains.

 

I've never made any comments about his positioning or turning the wrong way; when I mention him repeatedly turning his back to blocker I'm referring to his unwillingness to play physically and attack the blocker, NOT to him making mental mistakes within the defensive sceme. And just because the offense doesn't score or hit a huge gainer every time he shies from contact doesn't mean he's done his job properly. It could ce something as simple as him turning his back to a slotreceiver who is blocking him (which I have seen more than once), getting shoved upfield and allowing the RB to pick up 6 yrds straight ahead as opposed to being forced to turn it outside and run laterally for little or no gain becasue Posey simply took on the block and held his ground.

And if you want specific citations, I will tape a Bills game at some point during the first month of the season and prived specific examples of plays at times on down/distances to show you what I mean.

 

if he was a weak link why opposing OCs didn't constantly pick on him for scores and big gains that even the doofuses in the media would eventrually notice.

The doofuses in the media aren't interested in what happens between the lines. They're interested in somebody's hair, what kind of car they drive, what stars they hang out with and the brilliance of thier latest commercials; that's what makes them doofuses. And I do believe that oppocing co-ordinators made it a point to attack the left side of the Bills front7 on the ground, and had some success throughout the year doing so.

 

As for CD Nittam's post, it mainly deals with the Bills general defensive scheme and Posey's roile in it, not with any assessment of his individual play which is what concerns me. My problem is not with his awareness and/or positioning, but with his reluctance to play physical football like the rest of his teammates.

 

 

Last year with the Bills finishing 2nd in the NFL statistically and not even Posey critics such as yourself being able to site examples last year where his alleged bad play resulted in many or any examples of TDs or big gains, the proof is in the reality that this Posey issue was a non-problem last year.

Given a tape I can site specific examples 'til the cows come home, but I did not tape any Bills games last year. And again the result of the offensive play is not what I lament, I'm frustrated with Posey individual ineffectiveness.

 

 

Basically my premise is that Posey doesn not support the run well, does not rush the passer well and does not cover well. He rarely ever wins his individual battle and I would just like the Bills to plug somebody in there who will give a more concerted effort and win his battle at a much greater rate. When the season starts I will tape a game (I'll tell you in advance so you can tape the same game if you like) and make my own concerted effort to review Posey's work and provied specific examples of his inadequate play which you can then disagree with.

Cya

[34-78-83]

Basically what you said was worthless to me, that is all.  You know nothing about Clements or Evans blocking, or anything like that.  You're just posting blabber to me.  Let the real people critique people, and you can go get your can of beer and sit back down on your coach.  Don't take it the wrong way or anything though.

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OMG get a clue man. Simon always backs his observations up with facts and if he's not sure on something, he says so. There are many of us here who DO know what were looking at most times (given our television broadcast view of the game since we can't get the Film) and Simon has proven to be very astute in these matters. You can't tell someone simply that they know nothing and expect that to be the end of it. Maybe you could refute his points with a single fact based observation of your own?