Could both 2002 2nd rounders get cut?

[jester43]

The continued Denney bashing is mind-boggling.  He was the 3rd DE and got significant playing time on the #2 ranked defense.  He is a good player and would get picked up in a heartbeat if the Bills cut him.  Gause and Ritzmann are unknown, developmental guys right now.

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it's not that mind-boggling considering the gymnastics donohoe did to get him.

 

i'm not saying cut him, but he we deserve a better player for that pick.

[LabattBlue]

Denney is in the last year of his contract with a base salary less than 500k. Not only does he stay, I look for TD to re-sign him to a new 3 year contract. He will probably never become a starter, but he is a good backup at a decent price who can play two positions(DE/DT).

[LabattBlue]

Not sure about Denney - but the 3rd rounder from that draft should be a goner too...

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CCWWD

 

Cutting

Coy

Wire

With

Dignity

 

[Typical TBD Guy]

I agree about Denney, although wouldn't go near the best back-up DE in the league comment. As far as Haddad goes, he gets the fan treatment because he hasn't dropped balls, he has caught them. As long as I have been watching him, he has been making catches and plays. He gets released because there are bigger guys or higher rated or higher drafted guys out there that get more chances, but when Haddad actually plays he always seems to get results. That is why teams are always willing to bring him back, and then the same thing happens. Reed has had his chance and blown it. Haddad really hasn't, and you cannot compare the results until Haddad plays half a season or a full season in the real games and either tanks or produces. This year, I think it is a 50-50 chance at this point that Haddad gets his chance and Reed has used his up. Reed has been unable, for the better part of two full seasons and this pre-season, to do anything asked of a wide receiver. he hasn't been able to be consistently open, he hasn't been able to hold onto the ball, he hasn't been able to get deep, he hasn't been able to break tackles, and he hasn't distinguished himself as a blocker or as a special teams player. Even when he has been asked to return punts or kicks he has been mediocre. And even when he was catching everything in sight in practice the two previous seasons to this, it didn't transfer to even the pre-season games. This year, from all reports, he's not even hanging onto everything in practice.

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Nah, I stand by my position: Denney is one of the best backup DE's (top 5) in the league, though this time I'll specify with strong-side DE. I haven't seen enough of Gause yet, nor has anyone else. And until Gause shows us consistent excellence in the next 3 preseason games, he doesn't deserve to take a roster spot from Denney. But if Gause does look too good to store on the PS, then we would simply find room for him with a 5th DE roster spot rather than cut the more experienced Denney.

 

Regarding Reed: what's funny is how sometimes different fans can see the same result on the same field and draw completely different conclusions from it. Read all of the training camp reports on this board and you'll see what I mean. I saw the preseason game on tape last night, and from what I saw neither Wilson nor Haddad nor Reed were exceptionally good or bad in their WR play (I'm not including special teams play, since your argument against Reed and for Haddad/Wilson is a fair one when you factor in this additional contribution). To me, Haddad maybe looked the most solid of the 3, but he also didn't face the same quality of coverage as Reed. So I have to wonder if the level of Reed bashing this offseason is as much a reflection of the fans' preconceived expectations as it has been his crappy play. I could also expand the above statement to Reed's past 2 seasons. Other Bills players drop balls, but they don't receive the same level of scrutiny in this facet of the game as Reed gets.

 

You are quick to cite some of the circumstances that have kept Haddad's NFL career down. Some of that may be true to some extent, though I find it hard to believe any sane NFL coach would jeopardize his ability to win by promoting day 1 drafted players over clearly more capable ones. Also, Haddad's size issue can't be much of a factor if Parrish and Freddie Smith are on the team and players of equal height like Evans and Reed are on as well. But my question to you is why are you so quick to ignore the circumstances that have kept Reed's NFL career down, like Gilbride horribly misusing him in 2003, Bledsoe throwing to him, and his injury in 2004? Who are you really rooting for? The best 4th, 5th, and possibly 6th WR on the team? Or just the Flutie-like underdogs?

[Sound_n_Fury]

At his pro day work out he came in a shade under 6-5 and was 269 lbs.  He also ran a 4.69 forty.  That is pretty serious speed for a DE.  Other than making sure we have the roster space for Gause, I don't see how Denney gets cut.

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To paraphrase a line Larry Felser frequently used about players like Gause, "I don't care how he looks running in his underwear, what can he do on the field"

 

We need to see a lot more production from Gause before he can have have a ligit chance of replacing Denny, IMO.

[BADOLBILZ]

To paraphrase a line Larry Felser frequently used about players like Gause, "I don't care how he looks running in his underware, what can he do on the field"

 

We need to see a lot more production from Gause before he can have have a ligit chance of replacing Denny, IMO.

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I like Gause, but Denney was a workout warrior himself. Taller and heavier than Gause, with 4.7 speed. Denney also didn't have the reputation for not playing hard, which is the reason Gause wasn't drafted at all. I'd rather keep Gause at this point than Ritzmann because Ritzmann can't stay healthy.

[Mark Vader]

BADOLBILZ Posted Today, 12:02 PM

  QUOTE(Sound_n_Fury @ Aug 16 2005, 10:58 AM)

To paraphrase a line Larry Felser frequently used about players like Gause, "I don't care how he looks running in his underware, what can he do on the field"

 

We need to see a lot more production from Gause before he can have have a ligit chance of replacing Denny, IMO.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I like Gause, but Denney was a workout warrior himself. Taller and heavier than Gause, with 4.7 speed. Denney also didn't have the reputation for not playing hard, which is the reason Gause wasn't drafted at all. I'd rather keep Gause at this point than Ritzmann because Ritzmann can't stay healthy.

 

You almost make it sound like Ritzmann gets injured as often as Jonas Jennings does. Ritzmann was injured once and that put him on IR, but I hardly think that means he can't stay healthy.

I am pulling for Ritzmann to make the team, I know he still needs work, but he looks to be an effective pass rusher. I doubt that Ritzmann will become a starter, but I could see him being used on 3rd downs as a pass rusher during obvious passing situations.

I do like Gause as well and hope that he makes it on the P-Squad.

[DeeRay]

Ritzman & Gause have both looked good this preseason. 

Josh Reed has looked bad.

 

For different reasons I can see the Bills cutting both Denney & Reed.

 

Denney: Kelsey has taken over as the starter at the previously shared DE spot.  This makes Denney a reserve.  I don't know his contract status, but he's either a year or 2 away from free agency.  With 2 cheaper DEs with possibly more upside and probably more long term future due to free agency rules, why would the team keep Denney around?  A surprise cut to some, but a very logical cut if Ritzman & Gause continue to play well. 

 

Reed: Unless he really pick it up in camp, I think it's a slam dunk he gets cut.  He's definitely gone after this year, the last year on his contract, so why keep him around?  Wilson, Haddad, and especially with clone Parrish's injury, F.Smith all give the team a better option for this year & the future than Reed. 

We keep 5 healthy receivers + Parrish:  Moulds, Evans, Aiken, are locks, Smith stays at least until Parrish returns and Wilson probably beats out Haddad.  Unless Woodbury can play receiver & takes Smith's job the receivers are Moulds, Evans, Aiken, Smith, Wilson & Parrish.  There's no need for Reed.

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won't happen... and you can take it to the bank.

 

Reed may not be the best receiver, but he certainly is a valuable participant at the #3, and is perhaps the best blocking receiver on the team. If you want to pick on WRs... look at Aiken and Smith... they're talked about a lot, but they've done absolutely nothing... especially Aiken.

 

Denney... solid against the run and, although not a sackman, he consistenly puts heat on the QB when asked to and also gets his hands up and alters the QBs throw. He is definitely a good guy to have either as a starter or a backup. He's also good on special teams.

 

So, when it comes time to cut, don't look for Reed and Denney to get the axe.

[CoachChuckDickerson]

Ritzman & Gause have both looked good this preseason. 

Josh Reed has looked bad.

 

For different reasons I can see the Bills cutting both Denney & Reed.

 

Denney: Kelsey has taken over as the starter at the previously shared DE spot.  This makes Denney a reserve.  I don't know his contract status, but he's either a year or 2 away from free agency.  With 2 cheaper DEs with possibly more upside and probably more long term future due to free agency rules, why would the team keep Denney around?  A surprise cut to some, but a very logical cut if Ritzman & Gause continue to play well. 

 

Apparently the Bills have caught wind of your post and debunked it. BUFFALOBILLS.COM LINKY

[jarthur31]

Coach Tolbert has said that Reed is the best WR on the roster at getting separation from the defender. I believe him. Reed's biggest preseason competition remains his own lack of confidence manifested in dropping the ball - not Wilson or Haddad.

 

PS: Somebody - ANYBODY - explain to me why Haddad gets all the fan forgiveness in the world for taking 5 years to develop, while Reed is being relentlessly bashed after 3?

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Simply because a WR is useless if he can't catch the ball bro. Nobody here expects him to be a burner like Evans is--that's not his forte. As a slot receiver, his job is to get open and catch those 3rd down passes. He's shown that he can't do that. We need to find somebody else who can. It makes you wonder why he's regressed since his rookie year.

[Bill from NYC]

Nah, I stand by my position: Denney is one of the best backup DE's (top 5) in the league, though this time I'll specify with strong-side DE. I haven't seen enough of Gause yet, nor has anyone else. And until Gause shows us consistent excellence in the next 3 preseason games, he doesn't deserve to take a roster spot from Denney. But if Gause does look too good to store on the PS, then we would simply find room for him with a 5th DE roster spot rather than cut the more experienced Denney.

 

Regarding Reed: what's funny is how sometimes different fans can see the same result on the same field and draw completely different conclusions from it. Read all of the training camp reports on this board and you'll see what I mean. I saw the preseason game on tape last night, and from what I saw neither Wilson nor Haddad nor Reed were exceptionally good or bad in their WR play (I'm not including special teams play, since your argument against Reed and for Haddad/Wilson is a fair one when you factor in this additional contribution). To me, Haddad maybe looked the most solid of the 3, but he also didn't face the same quality of coverage as Reed. So I have to wonder if the level of Reed bashing this offseason is as much a reflection of the fans' preconceived expectations as it has been his crappy play. I could also expand the above statement to Reed's past 2 seasons. Other Bills players drop balls, but they don't receive the same level of scrutiny in this facet of the game as Reed gets.

 

You are quick to cite some of the circumstances that have kept Haddad's NFL career down. Some of that may be true to some extent, though I find it hard to believe any sane NFL coach would jeopardize his ability to win by promoting day 1 drafted players over clearly more capable ones. Also, Haddad's size issue can't be much of a factor if Parrish and Freddie Smith are on the team and players of equal height like Evans and Reed are on as well. But my question to you is why are you so quick to ignore the circumstances that have kept Reed's NFL career down, like Gilbride horribly misusing him in 2003, Bledsoe throwing to him, and his injury in 2004? Who are you really rooting for? The best 4th, 5th, and possibly 6th WR on the team? Or just the Flutie-like underdogs?

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I am with you 100% wrt Denney. I wish that he had just a tad more speed, but he is certainly a decent DE, and as a backup.....off the charts. Again, I doubt if there are many teams stacked at this incredibly difficult position to fill.

I also agree with jester. If Denney is not going to be with the team, the Bills could easily get a mid round pick for him.

 

As for Reed, it is a different situation imo. Look at Moulds. Dropped passes have held him back from truly being a great wr (as opposed to very good). Reed doesn't come with the gifts that God has given Eric. I have watched Moulds since he was in college, and he has made some amazing, fully extended acrobatic receptions for many years. He is big, as strong as an ox, and might beat Reed in a race today.

 

Reed drops pass after pass, and does not have the tangibles. I also suspect (after reading various posts here) that he is a party animal who lacks a great work ethic.

Other than Aiken (for his special teams), I am not holding the other receivers on our roster to lofty heights. I just think that Reed sucks, and I hope that he is cut.

 

Btw, nice post.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

There is simply a world of difference between the course or progress that Ryan Denney has shown andthe course of regress that Josh Reed has shown that it simply amazes me that folks who clearly have been around TSW for awhile and care deeply about the Bills do not seem to get it that while initial opinions that Denney sucked were legitimate (the use of his body and the leverage he could apply was so bad by him as a rookie he was easily thrown about by even the slightest NFL vet and we were forced to keep him inactive most of his rookie seasons).

 

However, by his second year, Denney had mastered so fairly fundamental lessons in terms of bending his knees properly when locked up with an opponent such that he even was a starter his second year.

 

While Denney never has developed the pass rush talent to be a consistent LDE starter, the acquisition and development of Chris Kelsay allowed the Bills to utilize Denny as a back-up for both LDE Kelsay and RDE Schoblel. The fact of this truth is not mere opinion but is objectively seen in the Bills not having to run to the waiver wire for a fourth DE when Ritzmann went on IR, but Denney backed up both slots on the roster last year.

 

Those who make the claim that Denny is so bad he can be cut really need to explain if they are to be believed:

 

1. Given the Bills use of a DL rotation which saw Denney get ample playing time last year, if he was so bad why didn't the Bills even think about looking for another player on the waiver wire to back-up and replace Denney as the 3rd of only 3 DEs?

2. If Denney was so bad last year, how on earth did the D finish 2nd statistically in the league with this obvious liability often on the field?

3. If Denney was so bad why didn't opposing OCs also notice this and pick on him savagely whenever he was on the field (actually I would not that in the one game against Pittsburgh he and others got taken to the cleaners quite a bit by the opposing OC who I think was operating under the guidance of Dick LeBeau who was intimately familiar with the run-blitz he developed and we used and the strengths and weaknesses of Bills players, Denney was far from alone in being a target of Pitts play). Outside of the Pitts debacle Denney simply was a key part of a productive D last year.

 

If you want to watch and learn from the game (which I do all the time), Denney is not one who we should hyperventilate about as being a great DE, but he is a solid and quite valuable player for the Bills. He actually is probably more accurately considered as a very good back-up (and reallty it is true when TD calls him a co-starter) who not is sinply cinsidered as a back-up LDE to Kelsay, but:

 

1. Has showed incredible athleticism for a player as tall and rangy as he is. One of Denney's great strengths in our scheme is that he has incredible wingspan which makes his a potent force in short-zone pass coverage when he drops back in the zone blitz (allowing folks like Spikes and Fletcher to make 3 sacks apiece and Spikes in particular to make INTs on short passes in the flat to RBs). Even better his unusally good athleticism allows him to cover in the medium zone which is simply unheard of for most LDEs (remember a mid zone INT he got last pre-season). Schobel also has shown good athleticism and can drop back pretty far (not as far as Denney as best as I can tell) and having two DEs who can play pass coverage gives us incredible flexibility.

 

2. Though he has limitations as a pass rusher, he is incredibly stout as a run defender. This talent was again objectively shown in the stat that Phat Pat took less than 2/3 of D snaps last year even though he was the DT starter. Not only did Denney confortably allow us to sit Phat Pat on 3rd down, we could even use Denny on some 2nd and long situations as Deeny showed both the skill to do pass coverage when the zone blitz called for him to drop back or to hold the line when the offense went with the run option on these 2nd down plays.

 

3. We traded up to draft this older player (a thing which TD haters still hold against him though I am sure it gave him a little chuckle when he drafted Denney who was on the phone with Pittsburgh who had decided to pick him with the next choice) and he disappointed as physical play problems did not even allow him to play immediately, but once he solved the physical issue, it really has given us benefit that he is an older bright boy. A key to our defensive performance is that 8th year player Posey makes excellent reads on whether the O is going to pass or run on a particular play and he drops back or holds the line accordingly. Denney has shown some good (and actually developing) ability to make good reads and is better thought of as a back-up to Posey (who is still in the game with Denney for that play but Denney switches repsonsibilities with him as Posey often lines up as though he were an end in a three point stance thugh Posey may still drop back into pass coverage depending upon his read). Denney in the Bills D plays a position that Posey often plays which TSW watcher CSNittan has called the "watcher" which describes well how Posey or Denney plays a key role in making out zone-blitz work so well.

 

Honestly, those of you who think there is even a remote chance of Denney deserving to be cut watch the D perform with even a small sense of football knowledge and how the game is being played and you will see Deeny being incredibly well uised in our D scheme and far more often than not performing quite well.

 

It is more than understandable that one would not want to watch the game with this level of focus as it is simply enjoyable based on the results (as long as we are winning like we did in the streak last season). However, if you choose not to devote too much reasonable attention to the details of the game, you need not mrerely trust in the rantings of thos of us do devote more rational time to this than it deserves. There are in fact outside objective measures of the quality of Denney's play and importance to the Bills which you should take into account:

 

1. We kept only three players at DE last year in a D which used a DE rotation so Denney had to be relied upon by us to play alot.

2. Te D was quite successful with him playing a lot.

3. Objective measures show not only that our starting DT sat alot (he played only 58% of the D snaps but the other starting DT Adams was notable in complaining publicly about being sat down (someone Edwards and Denney) were manning the DT slots these plays.

 

Believe me Denney is not the best DE out there, but he plays a critical role in a very successful D. It is extemely unlikey that Denney would be cut to keep Gause or Ritzman. These two may be keepers as we stil could use DE depth, but if we keep them it will not because either sacks like they are Bruce Smith (they don't because no one does) but they will be kept if they can pass cover like Ryan Denney.

[RuntheDamnBall]

FFS, you have got to have the record for the most words ever written about a backup defensive end.

[Kelly the Dog]

Nah, I stand by my position: Denney is one of the best backup DE's (top 5) in the league, though this time I'll specify with strong-side DE. I haven't seen enough of Gause yet, nor has anyone else. And until Gause shows us consistent excellence in the next 3 preseason games, he doesn't deserve to take a roster spot from Denney. But if Gause does look too good to store on the PS, then we would simply find room for him with a 5th DE roster spot rather than cut the more experienced Denney.

 

Regarding Reed: what's funny is how sometimes different fans can see the same result on the same field and draw completely different conclusions from it. Read all of the training camp reports on this board and you'll see what I mean. I saw the preseason game on tape last night, and from what I saw neither Wilson nor Haddad nor Reed were exceptionally good or bad in their WR play (I'm not including special teams play, since your argument against Reed and for Haddad/Wilson is a fair one when you factor in this additional contribution). To me, Haddad maybe looked the most solid of the 3, but he also didn't face the same quality of coverage as Reed. So I have to wonder if the level of Reed bashing this offseason is as much a reflection of the fans' preconceived expectations as it has been his crappy play. I could also expand the above statement to Reed's past 2 seasons. Other Bills players drop balls, but they don't receive the same level of scrutiny in this facet of the game as Reed gets.

 

You are quick to cite some of the circumstances that have kept Haddad's NFL career down. Some of that may be true to some extent, though I find it hard to believe any sane NFL coach would jeopardize his ability to win by promoting day 1 drafted players over clearly more capable ones. Also, Haddad's size issue can't be much of a factor if Parrish and Freddie Smith are on the team and players of equal height like Evans and Reed are on as well. But my question to you is why are you so quick to ignore the circumstances that have kept Reed's NFL career down, like Gilbride horribly misusing him in 2003, Bledsoe throwing to him, and his injury in 2004? Who are you really rooting for? The best 4th, 5th, and possibly 6th WR on the team? Or just the Flutie-like underdogs?

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Good post, and very reasoned, reasonable response. I stuck up for Reed for a long, long time. It is really only this pre-season that has made me give up on him. My attitude toward Haddad is that he has been an over-acheiver, and Reed has been an under-acheiver. Haddad made the roster three straight years on the team with the best offense and probably the best receivers of anyone in the NFL. It is not a surprise he could not crack the top 3 or 4 on that team. Players that have a little potential fall out of the league after one or two or three years. Haddad is in his fifth and teams are still giving him a chance, when he doesn't have the size or speed or upside that you usually give players with raw potential the benfit of the doubt. They know he is not going to get bigger or faster and yet they still are giving him chance after chance. That says to me he has a ton of talent and it is obvious to the coaches. Why else would he be getting the reps instead of, say, Wilson and Brown and Peoples?

 

Reed, on the other hand, came out of college not drafted in the first round because he lacked size and speed. Teams didn't think he was worth the high pick even though he had stellar numbers and production in college. But the Bills drafted him because he was known to run great routes, have awesome hands, and be a strong YAC receiver who could break tackles. I have seen none of the stuff he never had (speed and size) AND none of the stuff he was supposed to have (hands, route running, YAC, breaking tackles) except for a short while in his rookie year. I never see him breaking tackles. He is not wide open a lot. He no longer possesses great hands, in fact, he drops more than any Bills receiver and is in his third year of doing it. He still does not have the size or speed. So, if he doesn't play special teams, what exactly does he do?

[BobbyC81]

 

PS: Somebody - ANYBODY - explain to me why Haddad gets all the fan forgiveness in the world for taking 5 years to develop, while Reed is being relentlessly bashed after 3?

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Also, Haddad went to UB. Major local favoring.

[Rico]

CCWWD

 

Cutting

Coy

Wire

With

Dignity

 

408748[/snapback]

Here, here!

 

The much-maligned Ryan Denney is going nowhere.

As for Reed, Saban will scoop him up if cut & he will come back to haunt the Bills.

I'd rather move him to the other conference first...

plus I haven't seen enough of this year's Choo Choo Colemans to say that they deserve to stick instead.

[Lori]

WRT Reed: very possible, especially since his cap hit would be smaller than ever. If his play is roughly equivalent to Haddad/Aiken/Wilson, well, they're a lot cheaper to keep... and those Clements/McGee contracts ARE looming in the not-so-distant future.

 

In my opinion, though, Denney's not going anywhere. Might interest you to know that the first-team D was using the Schobel/Adams/Kelsay/Denney lineup for part of practice again last night. (Speed kills. )