More fodder for the ID-Evolution debate

[Mickey]

Page 5 of this thread.  Replying to Coli. 7:15 PM.

404986[/snapback]

Okay, I found it, I think. Do you mean the one about fish bumper stickers?

 

I don't know that those stickers are used in science classes are they? I wouldn't blame those stickers on science teachers nor do I see them as proof that evolution is being taught in a way that leads kids to see God as a myth. Are you trying to say that the people with the Darwin stickers don't beleive in God and must have been led to that position because evolution was taught to them in such a way as to convince them that God is a myth? Just trying to understand the logic here of how you go from bumper stickers to a conclusion about how evolution is being taught in schools.

[OGTEleven]

Okay, I found it, I think.  Do you mean the one about fish bumper stickers?

 

I don't know that those stickers are used in science classes are they?  I wouldn't blame those stickers on science teachers nor do I see them as proof that evolution is being taught in a way that leads kids to see God as a myth.  Are you trying to say that the people with the Darwin stickers don't beleive in God and must have been led to that position because evolution was taught to them in such a way as to convince them that God is a myth?  Just trying to understand the logic here of how you go from bumper stickers to a conclusion about how evolution is being taught in schools.

405119[/snapback]

The "original" fish were/are an expression of Christian faith. Some people see them as obnoxious and pushy.

 

Clearly the Darwin fishes are sold as a mockery of the christian ones. The fish has now grown feet and in case someone misses the reference, the word "Darwin" is thrown in for good measure. This clearly states the owner of the sticker believes in Darwin and refutes Jesus because of it. If not, there would be no reason to shape it like a fish.

 

I have no problem with Darwin and I also believe in God. I really see no conflict.

 

Evidently thousands of believers and thousands of Darwinians do. If a church wants to teach that Darwin is bunk and the work of the devil that is their mistake/business.

 

Scientists and educators are supposed to have a higher standard. They are supposed to measure their results and adjust accordingly. It is the scientific method. So far their results have thousands of people going out to compare the "opposite" theories of belief and Darwinism. Shouldn't a "scientist" try to adjust and correct this improper result? Or maybe they don't give a crap.

[Johnny Coli]

The "original" fish were/are an expression of Christian faith.  Some people see them as obnoxious and pushy.

 

Clearly the Darwin fishes are sold as a mockery of the christian ones.  The fish has now grown feet and in case someone misses the reference, the word "Darwin" is thrown in for good measure.  This clearly states the owner of the sticker believes in Darwin and refutes Jesus because of it.  If not, there would be no reason to shape it like a fish.

 

I have no problem with Darwin and I also believe in God.  I really see no conflict. 

 

Evidently thousands of believers and thousands of Darwinians do.  If a church wants to teach that Darwin is bunk and the work of the devil that is their mistake/business. 

 

Scientists and educators are supposed to have a higher standard.  They are supposed to measure their results and adjust accordingly.  It is the scientific method.  So far their results have thousands of people going out to compare the "opposite" theories of belief and Darwinism.  Shouldn't a "scientist" try to adjust and correct this improper result?  Or maybe they don't give a crap.

405149[/snapback]

I'm kind of lost on where you were going with this. I just don't see how a bunch of bumper stickers qualifies as an assault on Jesus by scientists and educators. Certainly not at the same level as loading a school board with creationists and attempting to change a state's science curriculum.

[OGTEleven]

I'm kind of lost on where you were going with this.  I just don't see how a bunch of bumper stickers qualifies as an assault on Jesus by scientists and educators.  Certainly not at the same level as loading a school board with creationists and attempting to change a state's science curriculum.

405205[/snapback]

The "scientists" are pumping out a bunch of people who see God and Darwin as mutually exclusive. They see no need to correct the improper results of their teaching. That's bad teaching and bad science. They might as well be loading up the classrooms with atheists because that is what they are turning out.

[Mickey]

The "original" fish were/are an expression of Christian faith.  Some people see them as obnoxious and pushy.

 

Clearly the Darwin fishes are sold as a mockery of the christian ones.  The fish has now grown feet and in case someone misses the reference, the word "Darwin" is thrown in for good measure.  This clearly states the owner of the sticker believes in Darwin and refutes Jesus because of it.  If not, there would be no reason to shape it like a fish.

 

I have no problem with Darwin and I also believe in God.  I really see no conflict. 

 

Evidently thousands of believers and thousands of Darwinians do.  If a church wants to teach that Darwin is bunk and the work of the devil that is their mistake/business. 

 

Scientists and educators are supposed to have a higher standard.  They are supposed to measure their results and adjust accordingly.  It is the scientific method.  So far their results have thousands of people going out to compare the "opposite" theories of belief and Darwinism.  Shouldn't a "scientist" try to adjust and correct this improper result?  Or maybe they don't give a crap.

405149[/snapback]

I don't dispute that people with the Darwin stickers don't believe in a divine creator I just don't see why you attribute their beliefs to the way evolution is being taught in schools. Certainly, there are people who can think as they do independent of anything they were taught in high school science classes. Science class isn't the only place where people learn things and form their own beliefs.

 

I am having trouble understanding what you are saying in that last paragraph. What is the "improper result" scientists are not correcting?

[Johnny Coli]

The "scientists" are pumping out a bunch of people who see God and Darwin as mutually exclusive.  They see no need to correct the improper results of their teaching.  That's bad teaching and bad science.  They might as well be loading up the classrooms with atheists because that is what they are turning out.

405221[/snapback]

Last time I checked they weren't teaching religion in Math, Chemistry or Physics, either. That's a lot of atheists we're churning out.

 

If students learn about darwinian evolution and subsequently lose their faith in a higher being, how is that the fault of the educator?

[Mickey]

I'm kind of lost on where you were going with this.  I just don't see how a bunch of bumper stickers qualifies as an assault on Jesus by scientists and educators.  Certainly not at the same level as loading a school board with creationists and attempting to change a state's science curriculum.

405205[/snapback]

That is what I'm not getting either. I think it ends up reading like this:

 

1. Science teachers teach evolution.

2. There are atheists who believe in evolution.

3. Therefore science teachers are creating atheists.

 

Maybe I am not understanding what he is trying to say but honestly, that is what I am hearing from him. I don't see how he goes from step 2 to step 3. I have to assume I am missing something because this just doesn't make sense.

[Johnny Coli]

I don't see how he goes from step 2 to step 3.

405235[/snapback]

 

Faith

[OGTEleven]

I don't dispute that people with the Darwin stickers don't believe in a divine creator I just don't see why you attribute their beliefs to the way evolution is being taught in schools.  Certainly, there are people who can think as they do independent of anything they were taught in high school science classes.  Science class isn't the only place where people learn things and form their own beliefs.

 

I am having trouble understanding what you are saying in that last paragraph.  What is the "improper result" scientists are not correcting?

405222[/snapback]

Where is evolution taught primarily? High school. There are thousands and thousands of those stickers all over the roads, yet there is no connection to the schools where Darwin is taught? By that logic, why teach anything at all? Kids will just pick up calculus on the street.

 

Certainly some of the stickers are from people just being wise-@$$es, some are from people that have done independent study and feel superior enough to mock others, but certainly at least a decent proportion must have picked up an impression that God/Darwin are mutually exclusive from their evolution class.

 

If there is nothing done in schools to offset this incorrect impression, isn't there something wrong with that? For years, nothing has been done but heel digging. Now, some believers are trying to combat this in a foolish way. I don't support the idea but understand its origin. The "scientists" simply refuse to look at the results of their teachings and try to adjust in any way at all. That is not what scientists are supposed to do.

 

I don't see how someone can say it is imperative that something be taught, but not care if it is being taught in a way that leads to true understanding. I don't want my kids thinking that since 2 + 2 = 4, all gorillas can fly. If kids came out of math class thinking this, the math teachers would probably try to correct it.

[OGTEleven]

Last time I checked they weren't teaching religion in Math, Chemistry or Physics, either.  That's a lot of atheists we're churning out.

 

If students learn about darwinian evolution and subsequently lose their faith in a higher being, how is that the fault of the educator?

405233[/snapback]

I don't see people with "string theory fish", just Darwin fish, hence the problem with evolution class, not physics class. If I saw string theory fish, I'd be ranting about physics.

 

The fault with the educator must lie in some level of cursory teaching. It should be simple to reconcile God (or at least the possibility) with Darwin, yet thousands can't. They have such trouble that they feel the need to mock others beliefs. (Evidently they don't understand that they are only mocking Jesus, but whatever. I doubt they think Darwin reconciles with Allah or Yaweh either).

 

It is not the responsibility of the educator to do the reconciliation, and religious leaders that also make the two mutually exclusive have fault as well. I see these two topics as largely unconnected (religion and Darwin) but people are leaving evolution class connecting the two tightly. That's not good.

 

I believe in God but I would not want people leaving class thinking that God tinkers with everyones DNA every day to get a desired result or that Darwin was an idiot. I'd be ranting just as hard against that if it were happening.

[Johnny Coli]

Where is evolution taught primarily?  High school.  There are thousands and thousands of those stickers all over the roads, yet there is no connection to the schools where Darwin is taught?  By that logic, why teach anything at all?  Kids will just pick up calculus on the street.

 

Certainly some of the stickers are from people just being wise-@$$es, some are from people that have done independent study and feel superior enough to mock others, but certainly at least a decent proportion must have picked up an impression that God/Darwin are mutually exclusive from their evolution class. 

 

If there is nothing done in schools to offset this incorrect impression, isn't there something wrong with that?  For years, nothing has been done but heel digging.  Now, some believers are trying to combat this in a foolish way.  I don't support the idea but understand its origin.  The "scientists" simply refuse to look at the results of their teachings and try to adjust in any way at all.  That is not what scientists are supposed to do.

 

I don't see how someone can say it is imperative that something be taught, but not care if it is being taught in a way that leads to true understanding.  I don't want my kids thinking that since 2 + 2 = 4, all gorillas can fly.  If kids came out of math class thinking this, the math teachers would probably try to correct it.

405257[/snapback]

If students learn about darwinian evolution in HS, and subsequently lose their faith in a higher being, how is that the fault of the educator? Isn't that a failure of the church, seeing as how it's the church's function to teach about that subject?

 

I really don't see the connection, I'm sorry.

[OGTEleven]

If students learn about darwinian evolution in HS, and subsequently lose their faith in a higher being, how is that the fault of the educator?  Isn't that a failure of the church, seeing as how it's the church's function to teach about that subject?

 

I really don't see the connection, I'm sorry.

405264[/snapback]

We were writing at the same time. see above your last post.

[OGTEleven]

That is what I'm not getting either.  I think it ends up reading like this:

 

1. Science teachers teach evolution.

2. There are atheists who believe in evolution.

3. Therefore science teachers are creating atheists.

 

Maybe I am not understanding what he is trying to say but honestly, that is what I am hearing from him.  I don't see how he goes from step 2 to step 3.  I have to assume I am missing something because this just doesn't make sense.

405235[/snapback]

You are misunderstanding item #2.

 

It should read:

 

There are many people leaving class thinking evolution disproves God.

 

The bumper sticker thingy clearly states: I believe in Darwin's theory therefore God does not exist. That message is as plain as day.

[finknottle]

It was/is my understanding that an agnostic is not sure whether God exists but an atheist is sure God does not.  I could be wrong about that.

404520[/snapback]

 

I think that you are correct.

 

But in practice, I think most athiests will say they are agnostic. Saying you are an athiest carries a stigma in public life - even in Hollywood you are better off being a scientologist, 'spiritualist', essentially anything short of a clear break. So people who don't want it to be a issue mumble something about there being a higher power but not subscribing to any particular church, being agnostic, anything but athiest. You can't run for president if you've got that on your record.

[finknottle]

Where is evolution taught primarily?  High school.  There are thousands and thousands of those stickers all over the roads, yet there is no connection to the schools where Darwin is taught?  By that logic, why teach anything at all?  Kids will just pick up calculus on the street.

:

405257[/snapback]

 

I used to have a cartoon titled "The Kid who learned Math on the Streets." It showed this teenage troublemaker leaning against an alley wall and smoking, saying things like "If you divide 2 by 0, you'll die!" and "This kid my sister knows tried to take the square root of negative one and his eyeballs turned black!"

[Ghost of BiB]

If students learn about darwinian evolution in HS, and subsequently lose their faith in a higher being, how is that the fault of the educator?  Isn't that a failure of the church, seeing as how it's the church's function to teach about that subject?

 

I really don't see the connection, I'm sorry.

405264[/snapback]

 

Wow, I thought I was trying to force a turn. Bug Boy here has just openned this up to the liberal educational indoctrinational agenda.

 

I'm still stuck on whether all scientific progress is a good thing, and the arrogance of man. Now I have to work in a "32 hours per week vs maybe 1 hour on a Sunday" thing. Then we'll get into parental roles, and then get into how parents should handle religion vs being involved in their children's education.

 

I think we need three threads. Maybe four.

 

This could take on a life of it's own.

 

Is that evolution? Or intelligent design?

 

My ancestral avatar must ponder this.

 

BTW, Mickey lives for this kind of stuff. Litigation practice, Counsellor?

[finknottle]

The "original" fish were/are an expression of Christian faith.  Some people see them as obnoxious and pushy.

 

Clearly the Darwin fishes are sold as a mockery of the christian ones.  The fish has now grown feet and in case someone misses the reference, the word "Darwin" is thrown in for good measure.  This clearly states the owner of the sticker believes in Darwin and refutes Jesus because of it.  If not, there would be no reason to shape it like a fish.

 

405149[/snapback]

 

I see the darwin fish phenomena as something else: many people who believe in evolution feel that science -specifically evolution - is under assault by organized religion. And under organized assault. The darwin fish phenomona is their way of fighting back as a group. They are not saying no to God as much as they are saying (to what they see as organized activist religion) "stay out of science."

 

I'm guessing that the way to test this would be to survey those who had the darwin fish to find out whether they were primarily motivated by athiesm or the integrity of science.

[finknottle]

I don't see people with "string theory fish", just Darwin fish, hence the problem with evolution class, not physics class.  If I saw string theory fish, I'd be ranting about physics.

405259[/snapback]

 

With reference to my previous post, nobody sees a religious assault on string theory. If preachers started to insist that it was wrong based on a creationist reading of the Bible, and then began a political campaign for equal time in the schools, you might start to see some string fish.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

I see the darwin fish phenomena as something else: many people who believe in evolution feel that science -specifically evolution - is under assault by organized religion. And under organized assault. The darwin fish phenomona is their way of fighting back as a group. They are not saying no to God as much as they are saying (to what they see as organized activist religion) "stay out of science."

 

I'm guessing that the way to test this would be to survey those who had the darwin fish to find out whether they were primarily motivated by athiesm or the integrity of science.

405287[/snapback]

 

I always saw the Darwin fish as just a rather amusing joke. I had no idea people took it so seriously.

[Reuben Gant]

The real American paradox is that Darwinism is framed as antithetical to creationism, but American society has fully embraced social Darwinism with no problem at all.