Mickey Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 You have the man invented science in competition with man invented religion. 404314[/snapback] The difference is that scientists aren't demanding to be allowed to teach evolution during mass but pastors want their faith taught in science class. This isn't an argument about the existence of a higher power, it is far more simple than that. It is just an argument about whether we will teach science in science class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 I think that is a really broad generalization. 404458[/snapback] Sort of like, people who believe in God are crazed lunatics trying to impose their belief system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 Some day we're all gonna die. Everyone of us. Can't avoid it, it happens. When it's over, it can be either all there is, or maybe it's something more? I prefer to think there is something more, and if you want to espound that we have disproved that through science, I guess you're going to have to die and rot. I'll take my chances that we're not the greatest thing in the entire universe, maybe there are things we don't know, much less understand, and that there might just be construction contracts we didn't get to bid on. Doesn't mean "God", in Man's terminology. But, if some of you want to belive you are all the all powerful, more power to you. 404405[/snapback] I think the people who think they are "all powerful" are not the secular humanists of the world, quite the contrary. When was the last time you had a scientist ring your door bell and hand you a pamphlet pushing atheism? The arrogance, the certainty of being right is with the righteous. Again, scientists aren't trying to teach evolution in Sunday school but the pious and the righteous sure want to teach their religion in science class and to festoon public buildings and spaces with their symbols. Along the way, if they can pirate the public purse to finance their piety, so much the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 The difference is that scientists aren't demanding to be allowed to teach evolution during mass but pastors want their faith taught in science class. This isn't an argument about the existence of a higher power, it is far more simple than that. It is just an argument about whether we will teach science in science class. 404466[/snapback] Poor analogy (but of course you knew that). "Scientists" demand, perhaps properly so, that evolution be taught in schools. The way in which this science is taught leaves students with the impression that God is a myth, even though evolution itself makes no such claim. The "scientists" do not seem concerned about fixing the faulty teaching. My church does not teach that evolution is "the devil's work" or refute it at all. There is no need for anyone believing in evolution to fear anything from my religion or want to speak there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 Sort of like, people who believe in God are crazed lunatics trying to impose their belief system? 404470[/snapback] If you are referring to those who want to teach creationsim in a science class which are the people I have been complaining about, it is not a generalization. Let me help you understand the difference my son: "All scientists..." a general, unlimited reference "People who want to teach religion in science class" a specific, limited reference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemur King Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 Than why have we never, in our history, done it? 404363[/snapback] You need some therapy; the stevestojan you're posting today is toxic. Not just this post, stating that humans have never done anything good, but this whole thread and others. WTF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 I think the people who think they are "all powerful" are not the secular humanists of the world, quite the contrary. When was the last time you had a scientist ring your door bell and hand you a pamphlet pushing atheism? The arrogance, the certainty of being right is with the righteous. Again, scientists aren't trying to teach evolution in Sunday school but the pious and the righteous sure want to teach their religion in science class and to festoon public buildings and spaces with their symbols. Along the way, if they can pirate the public purse to finance their piety, so much the better. 404472[/snapback] Okay, let me get this straight...... An atheist is so smart that he has figured out that God does not exist. He can't figure out how to circle the galaxy, cure cancer, or sometimes even properly drive a car but he CAN figure out how the entire universe is built to a sufficient degree to KNOW that God is a myth? That, in your book, is not arrogant? In the same post you are saying religious people are arrogant because the BELIEVE something. The very theory that God MIGHT exist is an imposition on our freedom? Okey Dokey. How might an all knowing atheist explain a belief in free will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 Poor analogy (but of course you knew that). "Scientists" demand, perhaps properly so, that evolution be taught in schools. The way in which this science is taught leaves students with the impression that God is a myth, even though evolution itself makes no such claim. The "scientists" do not seem concerned about fixing the faulty teaching. My church does not teach that evolution is "the devil's work" or refute it at all. There is no need for anyone believing in evolution to fear anything from my religion or want to speak there. 404474[/snapback] Actually, I think it is an excellent analogy. Mass is a great place to discuss religion, science class isn't. I have no problem keeping them apart. If you don't think religion is no threat to science, you are apparently ignorant of the history between church and science for the last 10 centuries or so. Shall we compare the number of scientists killed through history by priests to the number of priests killed by rabid atheist poindexters? Funny, I was unaware that teaching evolution leaves children with the impression that God is a myth. That would come as quite a surprise to the majority of science teachers and scientists themselves who see evolution as a perfectly valid theory and believe in God as well. What "way" is evolution being taught that leaves this impression? Are children being converted to atheism in droves after having attended science classes? What study shows that the "way" science is being taught in thousands and thousands of school districts across the country is leaving this impression that God is myth? Are all school districts teaching evolution in this "way" that concerns you or just some? How many? Where are they? How long have they been doing it? Is teaching religion in science class the way to fix this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 If you are referring to those who want to teach creationsim in a science class which are the people I have been complaining about, it is not a generalization.Let me help you understand the difference my son: "All scientists..." a general, unlimited reference "People who want to teach religion in science class" a specific, limited reference 404476[/snapback] You should only put things in quotes if you are quoting. "Scientists" and "All scientists" have two different meanings. Sarcasm also had a place in Bill's post which was lost on you or at least you pretended it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 Okay, let me get this straight...... An atheist is so smart that he has figured out that God does not exist. He can't figure out how to circle the galaxy, cure cancer, or sometimes even properly drive a car but he CAN figure out how the entire universe is built to a sufficient degree to KNOW that God is a myth? That, in your book, is not arrogant? In the same post you are saying religious people are arrogant because the BELIEVE something. The very theory that God MIGHT exist is an imposition on our freedom? Okey Dokey. How might an all knowing atheist explain a belief in free will? 404483[/snapback] An atheist isn't arrogant for believing what he believes, nor is a true believer arrogant for believing what he believes. The difference is that one pushes that belief on others (evangelism) and is willing to punish those who refuse to adopt those beliefs (stoning, burning at the stake, etc.). That is arrogance. If you can show me an atheist who has knocked on your door or screamed at you from a street corner then fine, I would consider him to be an arrogant atheist. In my experience, the arrogance is mostly on the side of the faithful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 Actually, I think it is an excellent analogy. Mass is a great place to discuss religion, science class isn't. I have no problem keeping them apart. If you don't think religion is no threat to science, you are apparently ignorant of the history between church and science for the last 10 centuries or so. Shall we compare the number of scientists killed through history by priests to the number of priests killed by rabid atheist poindexters? Funny, I was unaware that teaching evolution leaves children with the impression that God is a myth. That would come as quite a surprise to the majority of science teachers and scientists themselves who see evolution as a perfectly valid theory and believe in God as well. What "way" is evolution being taught that leaves this impression? Are children being converted to atheism in droves after having attended science classes? What study shows that the "way" science is being taught in thousands and thousands of school districts across the country is leaving this impression that God is myth? Are all school districts teaching evolution in this "way" that concerns you or just some? How many? Where are they? How long have they been doing it? Is teaching religion in science class the way to fix this? 404484[/snapback] I gave an example earlier in the thread (to your 2nd paragraph). I'm sure it won't hold up to your scientific standards, but it certainly displays poor curriculums, if nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finknottle Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 "Scientists" demand, perhaps properly so, that evolution be taught in schools. The way in which this science is taught leaves students with the impression that God is a myth, even though evolution itself makes no such claim. The "scientists" do not seem concerned about fixing the faulty teaching. 404474[/snapback] The way science is taught also leaves students with the impression that my missing dog didn't create life either, even though evolution itself makes no such claim. I'd be suprised if "you" were concerned about fixing this particular bit of faulty teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 You should only put things in quotes if you are quoting. "Scientists" and "All scientists" have two different meanings. Sarcasm also had a place in Bill's post which was lost on you or at least you pretended it was. 404489[/snapback] This is what he said: "Scientists are narrowly focused guys who do things because they can, not because they should." Show me where he limited the reference to "scientists"? Did you take him to mean one scientist? Two? Three? Or did you take him to mean "most scientists" as I did? Your really splitting hairs here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 An atheist isn't arrogant for believing what he believes, nor is a true believer arrogant for believing what he believes. The difference is that one pushes that belief on others (evangelism) and is willing to punish those who refuse to adopt those beliefs (stoning, burning at the stake, etc.). That is arrogance. If you can show me an atheist who has knocked on your door or screamed at you from a street corner then fine, I would consider him to be an arrogant atheist. In my experience, the arrogance is mostly on the side of the faithful. 404492[/snapback] An atheist doesn't "believe" anything. An Atheist KNOWS. That is arrogant. I haven't seen too many stake burnings in our society lately, have you? It may be wrong to push your belief on someone. It may even become criminal at times. Arrogant has a different meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 I gave an example earlier in the thread (to your 2nd paragraph). I'm sure it won't hold up to your scientific standards, but it certainly displays poor curriculums, if nothing else. 404495[/snapback] Okay, lest assume you are correct that some schools somewhere could teach evolution better than they are now. Did those schools unleash squads of pimpled atheists who were choirboys and girls before they were exposed to this terrible class? I don't think the belief in God is at all imperiled by science class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 This is what he said: "Scientists are narrowly focused guys who do things because they can, not because they should." Show me where he limited the reference to "scientists"? Did you take him to mean one scientist? Two? Three? Or did you take him to mean "most scientists" as I did? Your really splitting hairs here. 404497[/snapback] I took him to be making a sarcastic joke with a buddy who happens to be a scientist. Maybe I was wrong. If I said birds can fly I would be right. If I said all birds can fly, I would be wrong. You quoted him in your post and added a word in quotation marks and you're now lecturing me on proper use and meaning. Classic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finknottle Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 Okay, let me get this straight...... An atheist is so smart that he has figured out that God does not exist. He can't figure out how to circle the galaxy, cure cancer, or sometimes even properly drive a car but he CAN figure out how the entire universe is built to a sufficient degree to KNOW that God is a myth? That, in your book, is not arrogant? 404483[/snapback] There may be plenty of scientists who believe God is a myth, but I don't know of any who argue that because of what they have figured out about the universe that they KNOW God is a myth. That seems tantamount to believing they can prove it, something I find hard reconcile with rigorous and legitimate science. Can you give an example, just one, of such a scientist? Frankly, sounds more like a religious pronouncement to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 There may be plenty of scientists who believe God is a myth, but I don't know of any who argue that because of what they have figured out about the universe that they KNOW God is a myth. That seems tantamount to believing they can prove it, something I find hard reconcile with rigorous and legitimate science. Can you give an example, just one, of such a scientist? Frankly, sounds more like a religious pronouncement to me. 404504[/snapback] Please explain the difference between agnostic and atheist. Perhaps I have misunderstood them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finknottle Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 An atheist doesn't "believe" anything. An Atheist KNOWS. That is arrogant. 404498[/snapback] If you don't believe that the Bills will go 16-0 and win the superbowl this year, do you KNOW that they won't? Are you being arrogent by not believing? So what do you call someone who doesn't believe in God, but admits to himself that he simply doesn't know for sure? Or are there no such people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 So what do you call someone who doesn't believe in God, but admits to himself that he simply doesn't know for sure? Or are there no such people? 404507[/snapback] I thought they were called agnostic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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