This is getting beyond old

[BigAL]

No, I wouldn't. Invading Indonesia doesn't make any sense. At least, not now.

 

And where did I become one of "you guys". I didn't offer anything one way or the other.

397805[/snapback]

I put you in with "you guys" because you always seem to imply that if you disagree with the Iraq war then it's because you're either ignorant, stupid, or uninformed. How's that for an easy set up for ya?

[Ghost of BiB]

I put you in with "you guys" because you always seem to imply that if you disagree with the Iraq war then it's because you're either ignorant, stupid, or uninformed.  How's that for an easy set up for ya?

397828[/snapback]

 

Yep, that's pretty easy. And, you're still not accurate, at least insofar as me. My problem with most of the views presented here (and elsewhere, including the media) is that the action in Iraq is maybe the most VISIBLE piece of the equation, but it's only a piece. That's the part a lot of people fail to understand. If one looks at Iraq strictly for and in terms of Iraq, it doesn't make a lot of sense. When you fold Iraq into the bigger picture, it does. Think in terms of global, and also in terms of "all elements of national power". There's a heck of a lot going on out there besides Iraq.

 

And, for whoever said it, the Bush administration did not "lie" about the WMD's in Iraq. That's just not true.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

I put you in with "you guys" because you always seem to imply that if you disagree with the Iraq war then it's because you're either ignorant, stupid, or uninformed.  How's that for an easy set up for ya?

397828[/snapback]

 

Fact is, most of the people that disagree with Iraq only express themselves in ways that are ignorant, stupid, or uninformed. I've seen very, very few people that can state in any remotely coherent form the administration policy that motivated the invasion of Iraq, let alone state coherent reasons for disagreeing with such. It takes too much effort; it's far easier to quote the latest soundbyte off the evening news.

 

Conversely, I don't know a hell of a lot of people who support the invasion of Iraq who can explain the administration policy coherently, either. In fact, I don't even think the administration explains their policies coherently. Most of the argument about Iraq as debated in the public domain basically consists of debating a policy that very few people not only fail to understand but don't even know exists because they haven't bothered to dig any more deeply than CNN or FoxSnooze - or, if they're reasonably curious, the Journal and NY Times.

 

But basically, I fail to see how anyone holding any opinion on Iraq in the absence of even a rudimentary understanding of the administration's global foreign policy agenda is anything but stupid, ignorant, or uninformed.

[eventualchamps]

You compare Bush to Lincoln, call William Randolph Hearst and Charles Lindbergh liberals, compare the Iraq War with WWII--and I'm the one who can't face reality.

 

I have no sympathy for the Islamicists and Wahabi radicals.  But they are not going to take over the world even if they take over Saudi Arabia. If we could wean outselves off arabian oil (we get 70 percent of our oil today from sources in the New World; if you throw in Africa and Indonesia, then less than 20% of our oil imports come from Arab countries) we wouldn't need troops in the Middle East, ahd the whole issue would be moot.

 

We'd be better off spending the billions we're wasting on Iraq (to say nothing of the civilians and soldiers getting killed) working on alternative energy sources and energy independence.

397674[/snapback]

 

 

So let me get this straight.......the planes were flown into the world trade center towers because we were buying oil from them?

[Ghost of BiB]

So let me get this straight.......the planes were flown into the world trade center towers because we were buying oil from them?

397850[/snapback]

 

Something like that.

 

Actually, I think he's referring to the idea that the main agenda for the original AQ was to remove all western (especially American) influence from the mid-east, principally Saudi Arabia. during Gulf One a lot of troops were staged near Mecca, and that totally infuriated Bin Laden.

[Dr. K]

Something like that.

 

Actually, I think he's referring to the idea that the main agenda for the original AQ was to remove all western (especially American) influence from the mid-east, principally Saudi Arabia. during Gulf One a lot of troops were staged near Mecca, and that totally infuriated Bin Laden.

397851[/snapback]

 

Yes, that's what I was referring to. Thanks.

[Wacka]

Just curious here, what big mouths have been running down our troops?

You write as if this is happening all the time. I have met many people who

have opposed politicians that got us into this, but I haven't heard anyone

speak badly about our soldiers. Of course strategies have been questioned, but for me, I don't think I have heard anyone bad-mouthing soldiers or questioning the integrity of people sent to this war apart from specific instances such as the fragging thing or that women at Abu Garaib. Who has been running down our troops?

397783[/snapback]

 

 

NBC, CBS,ABC,CNN,MSNBC,CNBC, just about every dem in Congress, that stupid Lt. Gov in PA, most of the uneducated idiots called actors in LA.

[AKC]

Just curious here, what big mouths have been running down our troops?

You write as if this is happening all the time. I have met many people who

have opposed politicians that got us into this, but I haven't heard anyone

speak badly about our soldiers. Of course strategies have been questioned, but for me, I don't think I have heard anyone bad-mouthing soldiers or questioning the integrity of people sent to this war apart from specific instances such as the fragging thing or that women at Abu Garaib. Who has been running down our troops?

397783[/snapback]

 

Real point of pride for the #2 Dem in the Country

 

Teddy Kennedy- the same shamefull embarrasment who allowed a woman to drown in his car by swimming away in an attempt to save his political life, something not one of his three brothers would have ever contemplated (instead I believe any of them would have died instead trying to save her):

 

"Shamefully, we now learn that Saddam's torture chambers reopened under new management: U.S. management."

 

Here's a group responsible for disrupting recruitment

 

It's amazing you need anyone to offer you examples. You should get out more.

[AKC]

Something like that.

 

Actually, I think he's referring to the idea that the main agenda for the original AQ was to remove all western (especially American) influence from the mid-east, principally Saudi Arabia. during Gulf One a lot of troops were staged near Mecca, and that totally infuriated Bin Laden.

397851[/snapback]

 

And adopting that incredibly naive conclusion requires that you completely overlook what Bin Laden and Co. did once they gained control of Afghanistan.

 

Now if you've already decided to play Bin Laden Lap Dog you can try to ignore the fact that his mission is all about imposing Sharia Law throughout the region first and then exporting it, but the facts are the facts and it's obvious to anyone who wants to understand the overall picture regarding the Wahabi movement EXACTLY what they intend to do. And it has ZERO to do with the presence of "infidels", that's merely an obstructon to their obvious goal. But it's a nice little fantasy for whimps to adopt in their zeal for grasping at anything the terrorists feed them. Hitler did a real good snow job on whimps too- cehck out Neville Chamberlain.

[Ghost of BiB]

And adopting that incredibly naive conclusion requires that you completely overlook what Bin Laden and Co. did once they gained control of Afghanistan.

 

Now if you've already decided to play Bin Laden Lap Dog you can try to ignore the fact that his mission is all about imposing Sharia Law throughout the region first and then exporting it, but the facts are the facts and it's obvious to anyone who wants to understand the overall picture regarding the Wahabi movement EXACTLY what they intend to do. And it has ZERO to do with the presence of "infidels", that's merely an obstructon to their obvious goal. But it's a nice little fantasy for whimps to adopt in their zeal for grasping at anything the terrorists feed them. Hitler did a real good snow job on whimps too- cehck out Neville Chamberlain.

397888[/snapback]

 

More than interesting. Sorry I got involved in a conversation with such renowned professionals as you. I'm in WAY over my head.

[Reuben Gant]

It's amazing you need anyone to offer you examples. You should get out more.

397883[/snapback]

 

I am amazed too.

[Reuben Gant]

Fact is, most of the people that disagree with Iraq only express themselves in ways that are ignorant, stupid, or uninformed.  I've seen very, very few people that can state in any remotely coherent form the administration policy that motivated the invasion of Iraq, let alone state coherent reasons for disagreeing with such.  It takes too much effort; it's far easier to quote the latest soundbyte off the evening news.

 

Conversely, I don't know a hell of a lot of people who support the invasion of Iraq who can explain the administration policy coherently, either.  In fact, I don't even think the administration explains their policies coherently.  Most of the argument about Iraq as debated in the public domain basically consists of debating a policy that very few people not only fail to understand but don't even know exists because they haven't bothered to dig any more deeply than CNN or FoxSnooze - or, if they're reasonably curious, the Journal and NY Times. 

 

 

397847[/snapback]

Damn, I wish I had written that. I don't think I could have summed it up better if I had three hours.

[AKC]

More than interesting. Sorry I got involved in a conversation with such renowned professionals as you. I'm in WAY over my head.

397889[/snapback]

 

Not that I can't appreciate the Village Idiot approach, but to come into a string without a single fact and spouting off a completely unsupported opinion is a lot easier to digest if the topic is something inane like football- it's a lot less palatable when it's about our country, something others of us still respect.

[AKC]

I don't know a hell of a lot of people who support the invasion of Iraq who can explain the administration policy coherently, either. 

397847[/snapback]

 

It's quite simple if you have an honest desire to understand it:

 

A) The welfare states of the Middle East have been breeding idle youth for many years, few of whom even consider a "career" or "vocation". Instead these oil welfare states bring in foreigners who do most of the actual work performed in these countries.The idle instead sit around listening to the radical Wahabi brainwashing that says they have forever been the red-headed stepchildren o fthe world and only through a strictly Wahabi interpretation of Islam can they ever rise to the level of grreatness they deserve.

 

B) The Wahabs are able to play out their fantasy world in much of Saudi Arabia and after the Soviet abandonment of Afghanistan they get to play Wahabi full time and subjugate all women in a return to the 7th Century, wiping out the huge gains even Afghani women had made against the Koran over the course of history.

 

C) Gaining full control of Saudi Arabia would require getting rid of other military presence in the region, hence the Wahabs adopt the "all infidels must leave or soil", simply a necessity in their quest to conquer the Saudi Royal family.

 

D) Wahabs attack us on our own soil in order to convince the weakest members of our society that we should "leave the Middle East" to appease the Wahabs.

 

E) Our administration moves the fight from our soil and citizens to the Middle East.

 

F) The weakest in our society buy into the Wahabi con. And history repeats itself just as it did when Hitler conned the weakest in the West before his run at the same goal the Wahabs have- imposing their rule upon their neighbors and then beyond.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Which of your kids volunteered to be in the military?

397690[/snapback]

 

The one's that needed to. Don't fool yourself, they are flocking over into the service because they all finished on the Dean's list, honoring the patriotic duty in their heart.

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

Well, THIS is certainly interesting. Always nice to get these perspectives. As the stoic Marcus Aurelius said, "The opinions of 10,000 men are worthless if none of them know anything about the subject".

 

Carry on.

397773[/snapback]

 

What a fun thread!

 

Sure your are haven't been bit by this bug?

 

This is a classic example... I live amongst this virus daily:

 

Federal bureaucrat virus: Divides your hard disk into hundreds of little units, each of which do practically nothing, but all of which claim to be the most important part of the computer.

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

Yep, that's pretty easy. And, you're still not accurate, at least insofar as me. My problem with most of the views presented here (and elsewhere, including the media) is that the action in Iraq is maybe the most VISIBLE piece of the equation, but it's only a piece. That's the part a lot of people fail to understand. If one looks at Iraq strictly for and in terms of Iraq, it doesn't make a lot of sense. When you fold Iraq into the bigger picture, it does. Think in terms of global, and also in terms of "all elements of national power". There's a heck of a lot going on out there besides Iraq.And, for whoever said it, the Bush administration did not "lie" about the WMD's in Iraq. That's just not true.

397835[/snapback]

 

I fully understand that GhBib and that is what I don't like.

 

Like waves crashing on the beach you can always create order out of what appears to be disorder.

 

Is it ALL REALLY necessary?

 

And... I am just poking fun at you above... Don't take it personal.

[SD Jarhead]

The one's that needed to.  Don't fool yourself, they are flocking over into the service because they all finished on the Dean's list, honoring the patriotic duty in their heart.

 

 

397924[/snapback]

 

Don't fool yourself, there are principled young men and women who are joining the military. George Pataki's son is an example of this. I'm not sure if you're aware, but he recently graduated from Yale and chose to make a difference.

 

Teddy Pataki, son of N.Y. State Gov. George Pataki, was commissioned as a second lieutenant in the United States Marines Corps, Saturday June 25.

 

More than 50 family members, elected officials, former Marines and N.Y. State Police Officers gathered at Pataki's residence in Garrison, N.Y., for the formal ceremony of the Yale University graduate.

 

Pataki, a 22-year-old native of Peekskill, N.Y., began seeking out information from the Marine Corps in February 2004 during his junior year at Yale. His interest peaked during a mundane summer internship working in a cubicle. He said at that time he wanted something more challenging, more adventurous.

 

As a football player and fraternity president, his peers respected and admired his choice to take the commission and become a Marine officer, however, it was a shock to Yale as not that many of the students choose to serve in the military. “It doesn’t affect me,” Pataki said. “This is something that I wanted to do.”

 

He completed 10-weeks of training at Officer’s Candidate’s School at Marine Corps Base Quantico, VA in August 2004. “Succeeding in OCS meant a lot to me. It meant more than graduating Yale because it demanded so much from me as a person. I grew a lot during my time there.”

 

He added that graduates from Yale have a lot of options, but not all are as rewarding as being a Marine. “I wanted something more exceptional; something that would make the most out of me.”

 

Although following his family members footsteps at Yale, Pataki wanted to forge his own future after graduating. “The Marine Corps gave me a chance to make my own way. It was a way for me to prove myself,” Pataki said. “I chose the Marine Corps over all the branches because it’s respected throughout the world. It’s an elite brotherhood and I wanted to be a part of that.”

 

After receiving his lieutenant bars, he humbly admitted this ceremony was not about him, but more so a tribute to the family he is about to join. “The ranks I am privileged enough to join today have made this accomplishment significant through past bravery and loss of Marines throughout American history,” Pataki said.

 

After his commissioning, he thanked his family and friends for helping him develop into the person he is today. He thanked them for the letters that raised his spirits during the tough time at OCS.

 

He spoke of the spirituality he found during his Marine training. “Growing up, I never considered myself an especially spiritual or devout person. But I’ve found that it is something intangible, something divine and beyond our grasp or understanding, which can make the real difference when the cards are stacked against us," Pataki recalled. “Our drill instructors were masters at awakening this component of each (Officer Selection Officer candidates) intellect.”

 

Pataki’s recruiter, Capt. Matthew Kessler, said the leadership ability in Pataki was evident from the start. “From being elected as president of his fraternity to helping other officer candidates prepare for OCS, he was always willing to take charge. If given the chance at OCS, I knew he'd be successful & go on to become an officer of Marines.”

 

Pataki is now in the individual ready reserves and will be attending Fordham Law School, Bronx, N.Y. for the next three years. According to the standards of Platoon Leaders Class law program, upon graduation and completion of the Bar and ethics exam, Pataki will them come on active duty and begin his three and a half year obligation to the Marine Corps. He will attend The Basic School in Quantico, VA, then nine week Judge Advocate General course and assigned to his first duty station where he will become a military lawyer.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Don't fool yourself, there are principled young men and women who are joining the military. George Pataki's son is an example of this. I'm not sure if you're aware, but he recently graduated from Yale and chose to make a difference.

 

Teddy Pataki, son of N.Y. State Gov. George Pataki, was commissioned as a second lieutenant in the United States Marines Corps, Saturday June 25.

 

More than 50 family members, elected officials, former Marines and N.Y. State Police Officers gathered at Pataki's residence in Garrison, N.Y., for the formal ceremony of the Yale University graduate.

 

Pataki, a 22-year-old native of Peekskill, N.Y., began seeking out information from the Marine Corps in February 2004 during his junior year at Yale. His interest peaked during a mundane summer internship working in a cubicle. He said at that time he wanted something more challenging, more adventurous.

 

As a football player and fraternity president, his peers respected and admired his choice to take the commission and become a Marine officer, however, it was a shock to Yale as not that many of the students choose to serve in the military. “It doesn’t affect me,” Pataki said. “This is something that I wanted to do.”

 

He completed 10-weeks of training at Officer’s Candidate’s School at Marine Corps Base Quantico, VA in August 2004. “Succeeding in OCS meant a lot to me. It meant more than graduating Yale because it demanded so much from me as a person. I grew a lot during my time there.”

 

He added that graduates from Yale have a lot of options, but not all are as rewarding as being a Marine. “I wanted something more exceptional; something that would make the most out of me.”

 

Although following his family members footsteps at Yale, Pataki wanted to forge his own future after graduating. “The Marine Corps gave me a chance to make my own way. It was a way for me to prove myself,” Pataki said. “I chose the Marine Corps over all the branches because it’s respected throughout the world. It’s an elite brotherhood and I wanted to be a part of that.”

 

After receiving his lieutenant bars, he humbly admitted this ceremony was not about him, but more so a tribute to the family he is about to join. “The ranks I am privileged enough to join today have made this accomplishment significant through past bravery and loss of Marines throughout American history,” Pataki said.

 

After his commissioning, he thanked his family and friends for helping him develop into the person he is today. He thanked them for the letters that raised his spirits during the tough time at OCS.

 

He spoke of the spirituality he found during his Marine training. “Growing up, I never considered myself an especially spiritual or devout person. But I’ve found that it is something intangible, something divine and beyond our grasp or understanding, which can make the real difference when the cards are stacked against us," Pataki recalled. “Our drill instructors were masters at awakening this component of each (Officer Selection Officer candidates) intellect.”

 

Pataki’s recruiter, Capt. Matthew Kessler, said the leadership ability in Pataki was evident from the start. “From being elected as president of his fraternity to helping other officer candidates prepare for OCS, he was always willing to take charge. If given the chance at OCS, I knew he'd be successful & go on to become an officer of Marines.”

 

Pataki is now in the individual ready reserves and will be attending Fordham Law School, Bronx, N.Y. for the next three years. According to the standards of Platoon Leaders Class law program, upon graduation and completion of the Bar and ethics exam, Pataki will them come on active duty and begin his three and a half year obligation to the Marine Corps. He will attend The Basic School in Quantico, VA, then nine week Judge Advocate General course and assigned to his first duty station where he will become a military lawyer.

397938[/snapback]

 

 

Good point... I think Daly's (Mayor Daly, Chicago) son joined as well.

 

[BigAL]

Not that I can't appreciate the Village Idiot approach, but to come into a string  without a single fact and spouting off a completely unsupported opinion is a lot easier to digest if the topic is something inane like football- it's a lot less palatable when it's about our country, something others of us still respect.

397918[/snapback]

It must be nice to live in a world where everything you say is fact, and everyone else has opinions. Enjoy it.