Seymour got a new contract

[jad1]

McGahee's year last year < Henry's '02-'03 stretch.

 

I think he'll be a solid pro, but acting like it's already a huge coup for the Bills when it forced out your Pro Bowl RB and cost you the opportunity to draft a player at a need position makes no sense to me.

 

Are you criticizing McGahee, because he couldn't match in 11 games what Henry did in 31? You can't possibly be saying that, right?

 

If you compare Henry's 2002 OR 2003 season to McGahee's 2004 season, the number are comparable, with McGahee only playing 11 games.

 

Donahoe replaced a 2nd round running back with a top five running back. It was a good move, and McGahee's production in 2004 backed it up.

 

As to your "need" pick, the Bills needed a DE, and they got the guy they were targeting in the 2nd round.

 

Are you really an advocate for drafting "need" players, because judging by the Pats first round picks over the last few years, they must really need TEs.

 

In the year before the Pats released him, Milloy made no impact plays for one of the league's worst defenses.

 

Declining.

 

Well then how do you account for him posting one of his best seasons last year? Fact remains, if Belichick was planning to get rid of him, he would have traded him like he did with Tebucky Jones. Belichick got blind-sided by this. To his credit he was able to overcome his mistake.

 

Belichick must be the only coach/GM around who can "mishandle" his way into Super Bowl wins.

 

Many SB teams overcome mistakes and miscalculations. Trent Green was the preseason starter for the Rams. Tony Banks was the Ravens starter before Dilfer took his place. Belichick gave Bledsoe a big contract and made him the starter in 2001.

 

Frankly, I'll take Belichick's "bad judgement" if it leads to consecutive championships

 

Just seeing if you can acknowledge that the great one makes mistakes. Obviously you don't want to discuss them.

 

Like I said before, Noll, Parcells, Johnson, Shannahan were all considered geniuses after they won their last SBs.

[jad1]

False.  I simply said that I didn't expect Belichick to handle the situation this way, but that I'm not going to question someone with his track record.

It's not, and it never has been.  Problem solved.

Again, I never said that.

 

It's obvious that you're only interested in hyperbole.  I'm hear for real football talk, so if you ever want to participate in that, I'll be here.

396513[/snapback]

 

See you say this:

 

Again, I never said that.

 

It's obvious that you're only interested in hyperbole.  I'm hear for real football talk, so if you ever want to participate in that, I'll be here.

 

After you say this:

 

False.  I simply said that I didn't expect Belichick to handle the situation this way, but that I'm not going to question someone with his track record.

 

Like I said, I'm really interstested on the ramifications of this signing. And I hope for a better answer than "I'm not going to question someone with his track record."

[Hollywood Donahoe]

Are you criticizing McGahee, because he couldn't match in 11 games what Henry did in 31?  You can't possibly be saying that, right?

I'm saying that, living in NY and without Sunday Ticket, I've watched more than a few Bills games. Henry didn't need replacing, IMO, and put up YPC numbers better than McGahee managed in '04 over the '02-'03 seasons.

 

If you compare Henry's 2002 OR 2003 season to McGahee's 2004 season, the number are comparable, with McGahee only playing 11 games.

So instead of spending a 2nd round on a productive RB and drafting a player at a need position in the 1st round of '03, the Bills spent a 1st round on a RB who put up the same production, traded their productive 2nd round RB investment for a 3rd rounder, and blew the chance to get a player at a need position in the 1st round of '03.

 

It doesn't make sense to me.

 

Donahoe replaced a 2nd round running back with a top five running back.  It was a good move, and McGahee's production in 2004 backed it up.

But you said yourself that McGahee's production only matched Henry's.

 

As to your "need" pick, the Bills needed a DE, and they got the guy they were targeting in the 2nd round.

they needed a TE and an OL as well, and missed the chance to draft productive pros Dallas Clark and Eric Steinbach.

 

Are you really an advocate for drafting "need" players, because judging by the Pats first round picks over the last few years, they must really need TEs.

Both of the Pats' first round TEs are set to start this year.

 

Well then how do you account for him posting one of his best seasons last year?  Fact remains, if Belichick was planning to get rid of him, he would have traded him like he did with Tebucky Jones.  Belichick got blind-sided by this.

The Milloy saga is well-documented. Belichick wasn't keeping him at his then-current cap charge, and tried until the last minute to get it down. When Milloy wouldn't budge, the team turned to the Belichick-drafted Eugene Wilson. Would he have liked to keep him or trade him? Sure. But he couldn't, and he was prepared anyway.

 

To his credit he was able to overcome his mistake.

That's what the good ones do.

[Hollywood Donahoe]

Like I said, I'm really interstested on the ramifications of this signing.

You and me both. But until I learn more about what went down, I'm going to trust Belichick's judgement. Fair enough.

[stuckincincy]

Both of the Pats' first round TEs are set to start this year.

That's what the good ones do.

396584[/snapback]

 

So Watson's ok, then?

[Hollywood Donahoe]

Pats fans certainly earned the right to be confident, but I hope you will still be around, getting your share of I-told-u-so's, if the Pats go 8-8 this year.

If I'd known about this place when the Pats were coming off of 5-11, I'd have been here. That's when I started posting at my current Pats board.

 

People are writing off the Bills for having Losman as a starter, despite having top-shelf defense, ST, and RB.

I'm certainly not writing them off. It's natural to doubt teams with first year starters at QB, given the track record, though. But the Bills do have a great D and ST.

 

Your team...lost 3 pro-bowl defensive starters, and almost lost a fourth...

Three? I count one - Bruschi. Johnson wasn't close to a pro-bowler, and Law wasn't starting for most of the year.

 

...and you act like that's a recipe for another Super Bowl?!?!?

 

There's a big difference between being confident and being delusional!

When you've seen your team start 42 different players over the course of a season, and proceed to go 17-2, you tend to be pretty confident about your team's ability to overcome offseason losses.

[Hollywood Donahoe]

So Watson's ok, then?

Oh yeah, fully recovered. Belichick's seems very pleased with his progress. He does have an injury history though, so who knows?

 

If healthy, I am optimistic that he and Graham can form a very formidable 2-TE set.

[jad1]

I'm saying that, living in NY and without Sunday Ticket, I've watched more than a few Bills games. Henry didn't need replacing, IMO, and put up YPC numbers better than McGahee managed in '04 over the '02-'03 seasons.

 

Ahh, yards per carry, the defining RB stat . OK, in '02 Henry averaged 4.4ypc, and in '03, he averaged 4.1. Willis average 4.0ypc in '04.

 

So the Bills lost .4 ypc from 3 years ago. What did they gain?

 

In '02 Henry rushed for 13 TDs, '03 he had 10. Willis had 13TDs last year, in 11 games. So Henry averaged .81 TDs per game in '02. And .63 in '03. McGahee averaged 1.8 TDs per game in '04. 1.81 TDs per game is much better than .81 or .63.

 

How about winning percentage. The Bills won 82% of McGahee's starts. The won 45% of Henry's starts.

 

So while the Bills gave up .4 of a yard, they reaped the benefits in rushing TDs and wins in McGahee's starts.

 

And you ignore that Henry was the starter in '04 and SUCKED.

 

McGahee has had a much bigger impact than you recognize or admit.

 

So instead of spending a 2nd round on a productive RB and drafting a player at a need position in the 1st round of '03, the Bills spent a 1st round on a RB who put up the same production, traded their productive 2nd round RB investment for a 3rd rounder, and blew the chance to get a player at a need position in the 1st round of '03.

 

It doesn't make sense to me.

 

It doesn't make sense to you because you didn't consider the numbers. McGahee has proven to be a much bigger impact player than Henry, and the Bills drafted their starting RDE in the 2nd round.

 

It was an impressive deal that has turned the franchise around.

 

But you said yourself that McGahee's production only matched Henry's.

 

Yeah, McGahee's 11 game stats match Henry's 16 (or 15). See the difference now?

 

they needed a TE and an OL as well, and missed the chance to draft productive pros Dallas Clark and Eric Steinbach.

 

Neither Clark or Steinbach would have the impact that McGahee has. The Bills used Ross Tucker at guard during their 9-2 run last year. They were 0-5 with Henry as their starter.

 

Let's see, impact RB or Guard/TE? Hmmmmm..

 

Both of the Pats' first round TEs are set to start this year.

 

Well either they're going to play the 2 TE offense all season, which I doubt, or they're going to start 12 guys.

 

And if these guys are so good, why are they throwing to a LB in the red zone. You'd think a 1st round TE would be a better target than a LB.

[Hollywood Donahoe]

Ahh, yards per carry, the defining RB stat  .  OK, in '02 Henry averaged 4.4ypc, and in '03, he averaged 4.1.  Willis average 4.0ypc in '04.

 

So the Bills lost .4 ypc from 3 years ago.  What did they gain?

 

In '02 Henry rushed for 13 TDs, '03 he had 10.  Willis had 13TDs last year, in 11 games.  So Henry averaged .81 TDs per game in '02.  And .63 in '03.  McGahee averaged 1.8 TDs per game in '04.  1.81 TDs per game is much better than .81 or .63.

 

How about winning percentage.  The Bills won 82% of McGahee's starts.  The won 45% of Henry's starts.

 

So while the Bills gave up .4 of a yard, they reaped the benefits in rushing TDs and wins in McGahee's starts.

So Henry has the edge in YPC and McGahee has the edge in TDs. The point is that their numbers are comparable, yet Donahoe gave up so much to go from one productive RB to one who is about as productive.

 

As for winning %, I think that may have had more to do with the cupcake 2nd half schedule than McGahee.

 

And you ignore that Henry was the starter in '04 and SUCKED.

Before the Bills reached the aforementioned cupcake portion of their schedule, the Bills' offense as a whole sucked, McGahee included. Notice what happened when they ran into New England on Sunday night.

 

McGahee has had a much bigger impact than you recognize or admit [. . .] It was an impressive deal that has turned the franchise around.

The facts simply don't bear this out. 8-8 with Henry in '02 and 9-7 with McGahee in '04 isn't turning the franchise around by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Neither Clark or Steinbach would have the impact that McGahee has.

Clark/Steinbach + Henry > Mcgahee

 

At least in my opinion. Especially in today's win-now NFL.

 

Well either they're going to play the 2 TE offense all season, which I doubt, or they're going to start 12 guys.

They opened last year in a 2 TE base offense, but that was scrapped when Watson went down. So you can stop doubting.

 

And if these guys are so good, why are they throwing to a LB in the red zone.  You'd think a 1st round TE would be a better target than a LB.

You must know that Watson was injured all last year, and that Graham caught 7 TDs in 2004. Right?

[Ramius]

The facts simply don't bear this out.  8-8 with Henry in '02 and 9-7 with McGahee in '04 isn't turning the franchise around by any stretch of the imagination.

 

396648[/snapback]

Are you really that dense? Try 0-5 with Henry as the starter in '04 and 9-2 with willis...that means 8-13 with henry as you would like to compare and 9-2 with McGahee...

 

To me that says McGahee did something for our offense that henry was never able to...

[Hollywood Donahoe]

Are you really that dense? Try 0-5 with Henry as the starter in '04 and 9-2 with willis...that means 8-13 with henry as you would like to compare and 9-2 with McGahee...

 

To me that says McGahee did something for our offense that henry was never able to...

Well, I've contended throughout this thread that I'm just waiting to see more from McGahee. If he can up his YPC this year and do it over a full season, I'll give him due credit. Until then, I just think his hype outmatches his production.

[Ramius]

Well, I've contended throughout this thread that I'm just waiting to see more from McGahee.  If he can up his YPC this year and do it over a full season, I'll give him due credit.  Until then, I just think his hype outmatches his production.

396665[/snapback]

 

of course you are right, because YPC carry is all that matters for a RB...i mean who cares if a player leads the league in yards or TD's...the important stat is did he lead the league in YPC...

 

I mean who would even THINK of wanting Ladanian Tomlinson on your team...he only averaged 3.9 YPC last year, so he obviously sucks...stop talking out of your azz HD, you are making this thread stink like a damn port-o-john...

Edited August 2, 2005 by Ramius

[MDH]

So Henry has the edge in YPC and McGahee has the edge in TDs.  The point is that their numbers are comparable, yet Donahoe gave up so much to go from one productive RB to one who is about as productive.

 

 

396648[/snapback]

You haven't seen enough.

 

Henry was a huge liability in the passing game, from both a blocking and receiving standpoint. He might just be the worst RB I’ve ever seen at picking up the blitz. In addition, Henry's running style subjected him to a lot of abuse. Although he never missed a lot of time he got dinged up quite a bit and that is eventually going to take its toll. I don't see the guy being productive in the league for any more than 2 years.

 

Really, all you have to do is watch WM run and then watch TH run. It’s not even comparable. Those stats you use don’t mean that much. You're comparing numbers from different years and also comparing them to a WM who wasn't 100% last year.

 

Lastly, TD didn't sacrifice anything. That first round pick he used on WM would most likely have been used on Kelsay, who the Bills got in the 2nd round anyway. Switch those two picks around and nobody is batting an eye at that draft at all.

[bartshan-83]

F*ck the Flyers.

396405[/snapback]

F*ck the Flyers.

396418[/snapback]

F*CK THE FLYERS!!!

396424[/snapback]

And F*CK the Flyers while you're at it too!

 

396466[/snapback]

 

Joe, we don't agree much, but can I get an encore????

[Alaska Darin]

Well, I've contended throughout this thread that I'm just waiting to see more from McGahee.  If he can up his YPC this year and do it over a full season, I'll give him due credit.  Until then, I just think his hype outmatches his production.

396665[/snapback]

You're an idiot.

[Bill from NYC]

You haven't seen enough. 

 

Henry was a huge liability in the passing game, from both a blocking and receiving standpoint.  He might just be the worst RB I’ve ever seen at picking up the blitz.  In addition, Henry's running style subjected him to a lot of abuse.  Although he never missed a lot of time he got dinged up quite a bit and that is eventually going to take its toll.  I don't see the guy being productive in the league for any more than 2 years.

 

Really, all you have to do is watch WM run and then watch TH run.  It’s not even comparable.  Those stats you use don’t mean that much.  You're comparing numbers from different years and also comparing them to a WM who wasn't 100% last year.

 

Lastly, TD didn't sacrifice anything.  That first round pick he used on WM would most likely have been used on Kelsay, who the Bills got in the 2nd round anyway.  Switch those two picks around and nobody is batting an eye at that draft at all.

396916[/snapback]

 

Bravo!!! Thanks for posting this and saving me the time.

I for one like it when opposing fans post here. Do you remember Des? He was a fin fan who truly knew the game, and it was a pleasure to read his postings.

 

That said, for this poster to compare Willis and Travis; he is either trolling, or doesn't watch the Bills enough to form a sensible opinion.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Joe, we don't agree much, but can I get an encore????

396922[/snapback]

 

F*CK THE FLYERS! *clap clap clap clap clap* F*CK THE FLYERS!

[Hollywood Donahoe]

You're an idiot.

That's not very nice.

 

I really like your PPP posts, anyway. Sorry I've led you to believe I'm an idiot.

[smokinandjokin]

That's not very nice.

 

I really like your PPP posts, anyway.  Sorry I've led you to believe I'm an idiot.

396971[/snapback]

 

You both make some good points and it was a good read- I like the devil's advocate thing we have going here.

 

HD- keep an eye out for Willis this year. All reports say his speed is back to his UM days. Clearly he was missing his top gear last year. However, it's no secret teams will load up on him and force Losman to make plays.

 

It was mentioned above, but why do the Pats throw to LB's in the end zone? I don't know, I just don't get it. I appreciate the sneak attack, but nobody really seems fooled by it anymore. The LB's usually have a guy right on them. Granted, they make the catch, but wouldn't you want a TE diving in the end zone with a safety draped on him?

 

Lot to look for this season. Hard to pick against the Pats. Hopefully the Bills make them earn it. I saw some Jets preseason footage on NFL Net last night, Pennington was lobbing the ball all over the place. So hopefully they'll suck, and I think we're all in agreement here when we say that the Ferrotte/Feely two headed monster in Miami does not scare anybody. But Ronnie Brown does.

[Hollywood Donahoe]

HD- keep an eye out for Willis this year.  All reports say his speed is back to his UM days.  Clearly he was missing his top gear last year.  However, it's no secret teams will load up on him and force Losman to make plays.

If this year is anything like last, I'll have the opportunity to watch more Bills games than I'd care for, and I always like watching division rivals to see what's going on; so it should be fun to see McGahee and Losman, as they both seem like exciting young players.

 

I honestly have nothing against McGahee, and was kind of excited about the rumors of the Pats taking him in the middle rounds of the '03 draft. I just think he's been a little overhyped this offseason by the media and Bills fans.

 

It was mentioned above, but why do the Pats throw to LB's in the end zone?  I don't know, I just don't get it.  I appreciate the sneak attack, but nobody really seems fooled by it anymore.  The LB's usually have a guy right on them.  Granted, they make the catch, but wouldn't you want a TE diving in the end zone with a safety draped on him?

It's a good question. Graham is adept at run blocking, so perhaps on playaction near the goal line, the Pats like to keep him in to block to better sell the run, leaving only the 2nd and/or 3rd TE's available to run a route, one of which is usually Vrabel. Also, Brady could've lost confidence in Fauria after the latter dropped two TD passes in the '03 AFCC game.

 

Lot to look for this season.  Hard to pick against the Pats.  Hopefully the Bills make them earn it.  I saw some Jets preseason footage on NFL Net last night, Pennington was lobbing the ball all over the place.  So hopefully they'll suck, and I think we're all in agreement here when we say that the Ferrotte/Feely two headed monster in Miami does not scare anybody.  But Ronnie Brown does.

The Jets have been overcoming Pennington's noodle arm for a while now, so I do still fear them. And as you said Miami's QB situation is enough to make them non-factors, despite Brown. The Bills are a real interesting team in that the D, ST and running game are more than good enough to contend, but they have a blank page at QB. If he pulls a Roethlisberger and doesn't hurt you, you guys will be right there at the end.