Blaming TD for Bills not making playoffs

[Kelly the Dog]

Support or dispute.

 

I've always held that the buck doesn't stop here with the GM. He has a specific job to do. The teams that have been most successful have been a combination of the GM acquiring players and coaches, the coaches living up to their potential and making all the right moves, AND the players living up to their potential and making all the right moves, all happening at the same time. All three things have to work together, with equal importance. The Pats have shown that the players Pioli has acquired and signed were the kind of players that can excel when their great coach puts them in a great position and then those guys, many of whom who are not stars, make plays at the right time. Granted, Belichick has a hand in a lot of player moves but without Pioli, they simply would not have won, without BB they simply would not have won, and without Brady they simply would not have won.

 

The Ravens and the Rams and other teams that have won the Super Bowl in the last few years have had everything come together for them at the same time. It wasn't just because of the GM's brilliance, otherwise they would be there year after year after year.

[MrLocke]

I know you mention it in your post, but your thread is misleading in that on the one hand you grant that Bellichick plays a major role in players accquisition and then on the other hand you want to compare TD and Pioli and Pioloi does not have nearly as much power as TD. The reason I think you can expect so much of TD is because he has so much power. Did you read this article You seem to want to say that TD is not responsible for the coaching, which I would diagree with on the grounds that TD hired the coach. Also it has been well documented around here about TD being somewhat of an egomaniac in that he does not want to hire a powerful coach because of what happened to him in Pittsburgh with Cowher. Also I think I read somewhere that TD forced Mularkey to hire Tom Clements over Ken Whisenhunt for offensive coordinator. Essentially I think TD has to be held highly accountable as these are his players and coaches.

 

I thought I remember someone claiming that Ralph Wilson could be held accountable because he hired TD.

[Kelly the Dog]

I know you mention it in your post, but your thread is misleading in that on the one hand you grant that Bellichick plays a major role in players accquisition and then on the other hand you want to compare TD and Pioli and Pioloi does not have nearly as much power as TD. The reason I think you can expect so much of TD is because he has so much power. Did you read this article You seem to want to say that TD is not responsible for the coaching, which I would diagree with on the grounds that TD hired the coach. Also it has been well documented around here about TD being somewhat of an egomaniac in that he does not want to hire a powerful coach because of what happened to him in Pittsburgh with Cowher. Also I think I read somewhere that TD forced Mularkey to hire Tom Clements over Ken Whisenhunt for offensive coordinator. Essentially I think TD has to be held highly accountable as these are his players and coaches.

 

I thought I remember someone claiming that Ralph Wilson could be held accountable because he hired TD.

391291[/snapback]

So, in other words, Ozzie Newsome was a great and brilliant GM the year that the Ravens won the Super Bowl because he hired Brian Billick as the coach, and he has been a rather pedestrian or bad GM all of the other years because he hired Brian Billick as the coach? Bruce Allen was a great and brilliant GM the year that the Bucs won the SB because he hired Jon gruden as the coach, and he has been a rather mediocre or lousy GM the last couple years because he hired Jon Gruden as the coach?

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

Kelly,

 

This is a very sensible post. As much as we want the Bills to win it all every year, I think that we all need to remember how much good fortune is required to win it all, no matter how good your GM, your coach, or your players are. Whether it is the good fortune that a couple of low-draft choices or FAs turn out to be solid O-linemen, or the good fortune that your conference is a bit weak, or the occasional lucky bounce in a game (say, off of an unconscious player's leg) or even an iffy official's call going your way (forget the tuck rule, do we all remember that Don Beebe stepped out of bounds before catching Reich's bomb in the comeback game that cut the lead to 35-17? If the official had been on it, who knows what would have happened...?).

 

When all is said and done, it is also worth remembering that 39 Super Bowls have been won by only 20 franchises, and of those 20 winners, most of them have won more than once, and only three have been there only once. [Those numbers are a rough estimate, I wanted to save you all an FFS-length post...]

 

Winning the Super Bowl does not mean you are perfect; it means you won the Super Bowl that year. Not winning the Super Bowl, or not getting there, on the other hand, does not mean you suck. It means you need to try again next year. That is the fun of following a sports team--the hope, the excitement of game day. To reduce it to "if we don't win it all we suck" is to (for want of a better word) suck all of the joy of being a fan.

 

End of rant. Go Bills!

 

RJ

 

 

Support or dispute.

 

I've always held that the buck doesn't stop here with the GM. He has a specific job to do. The teams that have been most successful have been a combination of the GM acquiring players and coaches, the coaches living up to their potential and making all the right moves, AND the players living up to their potential and making all the right moves, all happening at the same time. All three things have to work together, with equal importance. The Pats have shown that the players Pioli has acquired and signed were the kind of players that can excel when their great coach puts them in a great position and then those guys, many of whom who are not stars, make plays at the right time. Granted, Belichick has a hand in a lot of player moves but without Pioli, they simply would not have won, without BB they simply would not have won, and without Brady they simply would not have won.

 

The Ravens and the Rams and other teams that have won the Super Bowl in the last few years have had everything come together for them at the same time. It wasn't just because of the GM's brilliance, otherwise they would be there year after year after year.

391270[/snapback]

[MrLocke]

So, in other words, Ozzie Newsome was a great and brilliant GM the year that the Ravens won the Super Bowl because he hired Brian Billick as the coach, and he has been a rather pedestrian or bad GM all of the other years because he hired Brian Billick as the coach? Bruce Allen was a great and brilliant GM the year that the Bucs won the SB because he hired Jon gruden as the coach, and he has been a rather mediocre or lousy GM the last couple years because he hired Jon Gruden as the coach?

391301[/snapback]

 

I'm thinking about Parcells right now. I forget the exact quote, but wasn't it something to the effect of " If I'm the guy who is going to cook the meal I want to buy the groceries". As far as I'm concerned TD hires the chef or the coach and buys the groceries or the players. Anyway in those other years for Ozzie Newsome where the Ravens did not make the playoffs lets say he was maybe not as good those seasons not because he hired Brian Billick, but because he did not get Brian Billick the same quality groceries. As far as Gruden and Allen it wasn't Allen who hired Gruden in Tampa Bay it was Malcolm Glazer, because Rich McKay was the GM at the time and he wanted the Glazer family to hire Marvin Lewis. I guess the big point here is the more power the GM has the higher the degree of accountability. If the GM hires the head coach and is resposnible for player mangment then there is a high degree of accountability. If the GM just signs/drafts/releases plyaers and doesan't hire the coach a lower standard of accountability applies. Anyway you raise a good point in that Mike Shannahan has not been as successful lately as the back to back SuperBowls and he is the coach and has final say in personnel matters, but I do not think people would say he forgot how to run a football team

 

I think a major factor we are not taking into account is luck. In all honesty do you think when the Patriots drafted Brady they thought he would be the QB that he is? I mean how often would a team think they could get a QB like Brady in the 6th round. Also with Shannahan when the Broncos drafted Terell Davis in the 7th round.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

One of the other factors which needs to sonehow be accounted for in assessing a GM is actually dumb luck. I'm not sure how one even does this accurately, but somehow within the mixed bag od talent and idiocy that GMs bring to the game this seems to me to sometimes to really be the largest factor in determing an outcome.

 

Belichick is a perfect example. I think virtually bar none he is an impressario at doing some incredibly impressive things with a football team and game. The ability he showed to build a coaching staff and braintrust around himself, Crennel, Weis, Pioli and most of all the players who were the TEAM in the 3 SBs wins was phenomenal.

 

I really was simply in awe with the game smarts he showed in a night game last year (or the year before) where he somehow made the moves to keep his team hangin in there. Took a crtical safety to go down by 3 late ina 1 point game where they were sealed in their end. used the ensuring free kick and a great D stand to get field position back and then managed the clock and his O to coach the players to a win. Wow.

 

All this being said, this genius was little more than putrid in his HC performance early in his career.

 

He made a deserved name for himself working with Parcells in their early SB runs, but his work in Cleveland as HC was mostly insuccessful and actually bad as I think his team made the playoffs but once in his 5 years.

 

Personally, I think his work and actions were even worse when he negated his own pledge by first agreeing to and HC job and then pulling out and ending up in NE.

 

Dumb luck really kicked in when his team was spinning down the toilet bowl with Bledsoe at QB in 2001 and though eventually I think he would have been forced like TD was loast year to cut Bledsoe and go in another direction, my guess is that by the time he did this, it is quite doubtful the 2001 Pats would have even smelled the playoffs much less make and win the SB.

 

The best make their own luck and BB deserves all the credit in the world himself for making the right draft move when he picked Brady in the 6th round the year before. The players deserve all the credit in the world for sucking it up and supporting the young Brady as a TEAM to win the SB. Even Bledsoe deserves credit for being downright essential to the 2001 team winning it all that year as he stepped up off the bench to throw the winning TD in the AFC championship and then gracefully sat back down when Brady recovered enough to lead them to an SB win.

 

One can even go further in identifying a crucial thing which made the difference in the 2003 Pats becoming and remaining a team capable of their 2nd SB win was that BB completely butchered his handling of the Milloy situation and really pissed off the team, but this anger converged with some bad injury timing (Colvin for example) and the football quality of Law, Brady and the rest of the team ti oerfirn a gutcheck where they came together and won it all again.

 

The oddity here is that I am pretty certain that if Lewis had not happened to hit Bledsoe in a certain way that caused his lung to collapse and gave Brady the chance to step in, the team to become a TEAM and support him, and gve the refs a chance to make an odd application of the tuck rule which allowed the NDE run to continue, I would not be surprised at all if BB never started or completed their SB run and that he may have even been fired from the Pats by now and simply be a footnote at best in HFL history.

 

Instead he is correctly hailed as a genius.

 

Go figure.

[Kelly the Dog]

I'm thinking about Parcells right now. I forget the exact quote, but wasn't it something to the effect of " If I'm the guy who is going to cook the meal I want to buy the groceries". As far as I'm concerned TD hires the chef or the coach and buys the groceries or the players. Anyway in those other years for Ozzie Newsome where the Ravens did not make the playoffs lets say he was maybe not as good those seasons not because he hired, but because he did not get Brian Billick the same quality groceries. As far as Gruden and Allen it wasn't Allen who hired Gruden in Tampa Bay it was Malcolm Glazer, because Rich McKay was the GM at the time and he wanted the Glazer family to hire Marvin Lewis. I guess the big point here is the more power the GM has the higher the degree of accountability. If the GM hires the head coach and is resposnible for player mangment then there is a high degree of accountability. If the GM just signs/drafts/releases plyaers and doesan't hire the coach a lower standard of accountability applies. Anyway you raise a good point in that Mike Shannahan has not been as successful lately as the back to back SuperBowls and he is the coach and has final say in personnel matters.

 

I think a major factor we are not taking into account is luck. In all honesty do you think when the Patriots drafted Brady they thought he would be the QB that he is? I mean how often would a team think they could get a QB like Brady in the 6th round.

391345[/snapback]

Good post, especially about the luck. Although I was accounting for the luck when I said that everything has to come together all at the same time. It's like alchemy. And that often includes luck. Bledsoe's injury was luck, which allowed Brady to come on like he did. I've said before, the difference between Bellichick being a genius and perhaps Marv Levy being considered a genius was that Adam Vinateri made a 47 yard FG by a foot with a few seconds left and Scott Norwood missed a 47 yard FG by a foot with a few seconds left. Were the Patriots so much smarter that they knew AV could do that and the Bills dumb that they didnt know SN would miss?

 

You're right, TD does have a lot of power. Ozzie Newsome has a lot of power. A lot of GMs and a few coaches have a lot of power. But I just don't believe in the buck stops here mentality of a lot of fans when it comes to the GM. The buck stops at 3-4 places, including the owner and the GM and the coach and the players. And then you need some luck.

[Alaska Darin]

I'll believe Belichick and Pioli are geniuses when they win a SB with Drew Bledsoe. I'll believe Tom Donahoe is an idiot when we don't reach the playoffs with Tom Brady at the helm.

 

Swap the two QBs last year. Think about it.

[Kelly the Dog]

I'll believe Belichick and Pioli are geniuses when they win a SB with Drew Bledsoe.  I'll believe Tom Donahoe is an idiot when we don't reach the playoffs with Tom Brady at the helm.

 

Swap the two QBs last year.  Think about it.

391364[/snapback]

Yeah, but the Pats were geniuses and knew that getting Brady in the 6th round was going to put them over the top. And did you ever stop to notice how brilliant a strategy it was to start the clearly inferior Bledsoe over the obvious wunderkind Brady the first few games of 2001 so the team could get all the losing out of the way first?

[MrLocke]

Good post, especially about the luck. Although I was accounting for the luck when I said that everything has to come together all at the same time. It's like alchemy. And that often includes luck. Bledsoe's injury was luck, which allowed Brady to come on like he did. I've said before, the difference between Bellichick being a genius and perhaps Marv Levy being considered a genius was that Adam Vinateri made a 47 yard FG by a foot with a few seconds left and Scott Norwood missed a 47 yard FG by a foot with a few seconds left. Were the Patriots so much smarter that they knew AV could do that and the Bills dumb that they didnt know SN would miss?

 

You're right, TD does have a lot of power. Ozzie Newsome has a lot of power. A lot of GMs and a few coaches have a lot of power. But I just don't believe in the buck stops here mentality of a lot of fans when it comes to the GM. The buck stops at 3-4 places, including the owner and the GM and the coach and the players. And then you need some luck.

391361[/snapback]

 

I think the whole thing with TD (myself included) is that everyone is starting to get quite impatient I thought last season is pretty good, but could have been great if the Bills snuck into the playoffs and because the Bills have yet to make the playoffs we want to point the finger at TD. Anyway I think for us younger Bills fan like myself (I'm only 21) we take the Bills going to the playoffs as a given. I think Marty Schottenheimer said last season that he always took for granted being in the playoffs. I think all that success in the 90s to a certain extent spoiled some Bills fan and we want to point the finger at TD because the franchise has not been as successful on the field as it was in the 90s.

[34-78-83]

Kelly, I'm pretty sure I've always agreed with your outlook on assessing GM's, and this thread is no different. In an abstract sense, they provide their teams oppurtunities and open pathways and doors through their efforts. I've never agreed that the sh-- all runs uphill like some people tend to look at it. Put simply, I am always going to happy with a GM who in my estimation has , within the salary cap structure, provided my team with a talented group of players and coaches who have the potential to work well together and be competitive with the rest of the league.

[todd]

Also it has been well documented around here about TD being somewhat of an egomaniac in that he does not want to hire a powerful coach because of what happened to him in Pittsburgh with Cowher. Also I think I read somewhere that TD forced Mularkey to hire Tom Clements over Ken Whisenhunt for offensive coordinator.

391291[/snapback]

 

Well documented? Really? I'd like to see that. This is the first I've heard of this.

 

To support this statement you should:

 

1. Provide proof that TD is an egomaniac.

2. Provide proof that TD forced Mularkey to hire Clements.

 

Franky, I think you are full of it, but if you come up with proof I'll admit you are right.

 

Well-documented my ass!

[Alaska Darin]

Well documented? Really? I'd like to see that. This is the first I've heard of this.

 

To support this statement you should:

 

1. Provide proof that TD is an egomaniac.

2. Provide proof that TD forced Mularkey to hire Clements.

 

Franky, I think you are full of it, but if you come up with proof I'll admit you are right.

 

Well-documented my ass!

391470[/snapback]

Speculation is the exact same thing as "well documented" here at the retard rollercoaster.

[Dan III]

Speculation is the exact same thing as "well documented" here at the retard rollercoaster.

391473[/snapback]

And at most major news outlets..

[Typical TBD Guy]

Speculation is the exact same thing as "well documented" here at the retard rollercoaster.

391473[/snapback]

 

Let me give the Retard Rollercoaster a whirl...

 

Well-documented: TD's failure to assemble a team that can make the playoffs (a marker that well over two-thirds of NFL teams have passed in the same 4-year period).

 

Speculation: that Brady is the sole reason for the Pats' SB run and Drew was the sole reason for the Bills' recent failures, since there are - well - 52 other players on a team. BTW, Pioli drafted Brady and BB mentored Brady, while TD didn't draft Brady and traded for Drew...so what does that say about the evaluation skills of each guy?

 

An inference based on your exact words in a previous post:

 

"I'll believe Belichick and Pioli are geniuses when they win a SB with Drew Bledsoe. I'll believe Tom Donahoe is an idiot when we don't reach the playoffs with Tom Brady at the helm.

 

Swap the two QBs last year. Think about it."

[MrLocke]

Well documented? Really? I'd like to see that. This is the first I've heard of this.

 

To support this statement you should:

 

1. Provide proof that TD is an egomaniac.

2. Provide proof that TD forced Mularkey to hire Clements.

 

Franky, I think you are full of it, but if you come up with proof I'll admit you are right.

 

Well-documented my ass!

391470[/snapback]

I do not know if I can proove that TD forced Mularkey to hire Clements over Whisenhunt, but here is an article to back it up. Not the most objective source since Cowher is the coach in Pittsburgh and this is a Pittsburgh paper.

 

As Far as TD being en egomaniac I think he got it right when hired Mularkey to be Head Coach, however I do think his ego has had some negative impact when he hired GW. I think TD wants to get the credit for the success of this team and that is why he has hired 2 coordinators with no Head Coaching experience in the NFL, where as if he had hired someone like Jim Faasel to be the Head Coach who had Head Coaching experience and the Bills had ended up having success TD would not have gotten as much credit. This all goes back to his time in Pittsburgh when he lost the power struggle to Cowher I think TD is scared of a powerful coach because he might lose another power struggle like he did in Pittsburgh. Anyway I hope TD and Mularkey do not go down the same path as TD and Cowher.

[John from Riverside]

To me it is kind of a trickle down effect.....

 

TD isn't directly responsible...BUT

 

A lot of the success of a HC doesn't really hinge on him...but his ability to select GOOD ASSISTANT COACHES.......

 

That is what really screwed up this team more then anything else......that and not addressing the QB position correctly and lack of a quality OL coach

[drnykterstein]

Let me give the Retard Rollercoaster a whirl...

 

Well-documented: TD's failure to assemble a team that can make the playoffs (a marker that well over two-thirds of NFL teams have passed in the same 4-year period).

 

Speculation: that Brady is the sole reason for the Pats' SB run and Drew was the sole reason for the Bills' recent failures, since there are - well - 52 other players on a team. BTW, Pioli drafted Brady and BB mentored Brady, while TD didn't draft Brady and traded for Drew...so what does that say about the evaluation skills of each guy?

 

Your exact words in a previous post:

 

"I'll believe Belichick and Pioli are geniuses when they win a SB with Drew Bledsoe. I'll believe Tom Donahoe is an idiot when we don't reach the playoffs with Tom Brady at the helm.

 

Swap the two QBs last year. Think about it."

391485[/snapback]

Huh??? I'm trying to understand your point, or even what side you are on, but I can't make it out. Please clarify yourself.

[Kelly the Dog]

The "TD has a huge ego which made him hire GW" never really made any sense to me. GW is the one with the huge ego. He was the one who came in like he was the new sheriff in town and making all the bold statements and we're doing things my way. And TD just let him do whatever he wanted.

[plenzmd1]

 

I think a major factor we are not taking into account is luck. In all honesty do you think when the Patriots drafted Brady they thought he would be the QB that he is? I mean how often would a team think they could get a QB like Brady in the 6th round. Also with Shannahan when the Broncos drafted Terell Davis in the 7th round.

391345[/snapback]

 

This was not luck drafting Brady. The Pats have an organiztional philosphy of drafting a QB every year, or close to it. Look at this year, they have Brady, Fluite as a backup, Rohan Davey(who looks pretty good by all accounts) and they still draft the backup to Leinhart with the last pick in the draft. If this kid turns out to be the next Brady, would you consider that luck? I woudn't. That is having a plan and sticking to it.