Wacka Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 The blame for the foam insulation problems can be directly placed on the tree huggers. That's right. There wasn't a problem of foam sloughing off the external tank until the PC environmentalists insisted that NASA stop using freon in the formulation/application of the foam. They switched to "a more environmentally friendly" method and that's when the problems started. Go back to using the freon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMadCap Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 So ... let me get this straight ... We need to either stop manned flight or take it away from NASA because it's a waste of resources and NASA managers couldn't run a McDonald's? Right ... Even with the problems that NASA has encountered (some of them their own fault because of bloated beauracracy) they have still done more in 40 years than most of us could hope to do. You can question the need to slam a probe into a comet, but to pull it off is impressive. I know many of your comments are hyperbole, but let's give some credit to work that has been accomplished. SpaceShipOne, though impressive for a privately funded operation, still pales in comparison to what NASA has accomplished. Also remember that SS1 built upon the foundation of what NASA did. As far as the shuttles being all things to all groups, it wasn't up to them. It was from political pressure to include all the different needs in the design of the shuttle. It was a phenomenal engineering feat in its day. Thanks for being impressed. 392202[/snapback] I want to clear something up before we get any further on in the discussion. What Rutan did with SSO is completely different than what NASA does with the shuttle. SSO was never designed to reach orbit, could never reach orbit, and never will with the current design. That craft was designed to do one thing, take a person (or three) to an altitude of 60 km. It is INFINITELY harder to achieve true orbit. What people don't realize is that launches are governed by what is called the rocket equation. Simply put, the greater your mass, and the higher you wish to go, the amount of energy (fuel) is not defined by a linear relationship, it is EXPONENTIAL. SSO would have needed about 200-300x the amount of fuel to achieve a ground speed of Mach 25 to reach and STAY in orbit. THe mass of the craft would have been so large it would not have fit on a 747. Rutan's ship was impressive in that it was a somewhat privately funded and designed ship, and that is commendable. But that toy rocket burned every drop of fuel to reach it's intended orbit (about half way to true orbit) at about Mach 5 at which point it basically ran out of gas and fell back to Earth. The shuttlecock design helped increase drag and let it safely glide back to a landing, but if you tried that at orbital velocity, the craft would vaporize al la Columbia, not to mention it had essentially no heat shielding. THe goal of the X-Prize was therefore not to put another player in the orbital launch capability game, it was to achieve a given set of requirements. It was a first step, perhaps in time the private sector will take another.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMadCap Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 The blame for the foam insulation problems can be directly placed on the tree huggers. That's right. There wasn't a problem of foam sloughing off the external tank until the PC environmentalists insisted that NASA stop using freon in the formulation/application of the foam. They switched to "a more environmentally friendly" method and that's when the problems started. Go back to using the freon! 392215[/snapback] You are partially correct. It is true that the freon foam had less debris strikes than the new "PC-foam", but there was still danger of damage. THe real problem is in the design of the whole launch system. OF course, the biggest fear of the engineers is one that has not happened yet, a SSME failure, which would cause a Challanger-like situation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkwwjd Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 here, here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 Ok, time for all you NASA experts to let us know again how utterly important NASA is to mankind and to start defending the space administration yet again. They spent "hundreds of millions of dollars" to fix this problem and not a damn thing changed. They just got lucky that this time it is "believed" that the piece that broke off didn't actually hit the ship."KENNEDY SPACE CENTER, Florida (CNN) -- NASA has grounded its space shuttles until engineers solve the recurring problem of falling debris, NASA's mission managers said Wednesday. Pieces of debris tore away from the shuttle Discovery during liftoff Tuesday -- despite NASA spending hundreds of millions of dollars trying to prevent a repeat of the problem that caused the 2003 Columbia disaster. A piece of insulating foam falling from the external fuel tank during Columbia's launch was blamed for the deaths of its seven crew. NASA officials say they do not believe falling foam actually hit Discovery." http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/space/07/28/s...ttle/index.html I'd say it's time to hand the reigns over to the X-Prize guys... seem they have their heads at least somewhat less deep in their asses. 392065[/snapback] I would not expect someone who admits to but takes pride in thinking reading is a waste of time to find any value in the space program... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 Even with the problems that NASA has encountered (some of them their own fault because of bloated beauracracy) Virtually ALL of them their own fault. NASA's culture has become completely risk averse, which is fundamentally contrary to a manned space program. Manned space flight will always be risky. If you're risk-averse, the only solution is to not fly manned space missions. NASA needs to change their culture from "risk averse" back to "risk aware" before they'll every be successful again. And what, you ask, is the difference between "risk averse" and "risk aware"? If I have to explain it, the explanation wouldn't do you any good anyway. As far as the shuttles being all things to all groups, it wasn't up to them. It was from political pressure to include all the different needs in the design of the shuttle. It was a phenomenal engineering feat in its day. Thanks for being impressed. 392202[/snapback] Do some research, it was very much up to them. As originally envisioned, it was an "Apollo capsule with wings" type of design, with the Saturn V doing all the necessary heavy lifting for the space program. The political pressue you talk about was created by NASA itself, from running to the Air Force for help and from eliminating every single launch program other than the shuttle, thereby leaving no option other than the shuttle to do everything. No one forced them to do that, not Congress, not the White House, not the DoD. Those were NASA's decisions. And as for the engineering...the shuttle is one of the most poorly engineered vehicle designs since the Ford Pinto. Many of the design decisions - the segmented solid rocket boosters, for example - were made not out of engineering considerations but out of the desire to spread the construction around the entire country...thus, rather than building the SRBs on-site in one piece as they originally intended, NASA farmed them out to a Thiokol plant a thousand miles away, thus the requirement that they break down for transport, thus the loss of Challenger. The main engines are some of the most poorly engineered equipment ever designed - the design phase was so poor and completely counter to any proper or even sane engineering practice that the engines not only cost far more than they should have, but they STILL have failure modes that aren't even understood (e.g. the 10kHz vibration that occurs in some new-built engines - the only solution to which is to scrap the entire engine, since their design process was so flawed they can't even diagnose the source of the vibration.) The vehicle itself is such an engineering marvel, it's missed it's functional goals by a factor of about 12 at least (four times the specified turnaround time with three times the specified number of maintenance workers). Yeah, some great piece of engineering that. The shuttle could be a legitimate case-study in how not to manage an engineering project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike32282 Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 114 launches and we lost 2.Following are some examples of shuttle-based technologies: 3-D Biotechnology Developed for Space Shuttle medical research, a rotating cell-culture device simulates the microgravity of space. This allows researchers to grow cells in three dimensions. The device may one day help researchers find cures for dangerous infectious diseases and offer alternatives to patients who need organ transplant surgery. Artificial Heart Technology used in Space Shuttle fuel pumps led to the development of a miniaturized ventricular-assist pump by NASA and renowned heart surgeon Dr. Michael DeBakey. The tiny pump, a mere two inches long, one inch in diameter, and weighing less than four ounces, is currently undergoing clinical trials in Europe, where it has been successfully implanted into more than 20 people. Blood Serum Research An astronaut's body, once free of gravity's pull, experiences a redistribution of body fluids that can lead to a decrease in the number of red blood cells and produce a form of space anemia. Monitoring and evaluating blood serum was required to understand these phenomena. However, existing blood-analysis technology required the use of a centrifugation technology that was not practical in space. NASA developed new technologies for the collection and real-time analysis of blood as well as other bodily fluids without the need for centrifugation. Artificial Limbs Responding to a request from the orthopedic-appliance industry, NASA recommended that the foam insulation used to protect the Shuttle's external tank replace the heavy, fragile plaster used to produce master molds for prosthetics. The new material is light, virtually indestructible, and easy to ship and store. Lifesaving Light Special lighting technology developed for plant-growth experiments on Space Shuttle missions is now used to treat brain tumors in children. Doctors at the Medical College of Wisconsin in Milwaukee use light-emitting diodes in a treatment called photodynamic therapy, a form of chemotherapy, to kill cancerous tumors. Taking Temperatures Infrared sensors developed to remotely measure the temperature of distant stars and planets for the Space Shuttle program led to the development of the hand-held optical sensor thermometer. Placed inside the ear canal, the thermometer provides an accurate reading in two seconds or less. Better Balance Devices built to measure the equilibrium of Space Shuttle astronauts when they return from space are now widely used by major medical centers to diagnose and treat patients suffering head injury, stroke, chronic dizziness and disorders of the central nervous system. Faster Diagnostics NASA technology was used to create a compact laboratory instrument for hospitals and doctor offices. This device quickly analyzes blood, accomplishing in 30 seconds what once took 20 minutes with conventional equipment. Land Mine Removal The same rocket fuel that helps launch the Space Shuttle is now being used to save lives -- by destroying land mines. A flare device, using leftover fuel donated by NASA, is placed next to the uncovered land mine and is ignited from a safe distance using a battery-triggered electric match. The explosive burns away, disabling the mine and rendering it harmless. Tracking Vehicles on Earth Tracking information originally used for Space Shuttle missions now helps track vehicles here on the ground. This commercial spin-off allows vehicles to transmit a signal back to a home base. Many cities today use the software to track and reassign emergency and public works vehicles. The technology also is used by vehicle fleet operations, such as taxis, armored cars and vehicles carrying hazardous cargo. Rescue 911 Rescue squads have a new extrication tool to help remove accident victims from wrecked vehicles. The hand-held device requires no auxiliary power systems or cumbersome hoses and is 70 percent cheaper than previous rescue equipment. The cutter uses a miniature version of the explosive charges that separate devices on the Space Shuttle. Byte Out of Crime Image-processing technology used to analyze Space Shuttle launch videos and to study meteorological images also helps law enforcement agencies improve crime-solving videos. The technology removes defects due to image jitter, image rotation and image zoom in video sequences. The technology also may be useful for medical imaging, scientific applications and home video. Gas Gauges A gas leak-detection system, originally developed to monitor the Shuttle's hydrogen propulsion system, is now being used by the Ford Motor Company in the production of a natural gas-powered car. Product Labeling NASA needs to identify, track, and keep records on each of the thousands of heat-shield tiles on the Space Shuttle. This required a labeling system that could be put on ceramic material and withstand the rigors of space travel to be readable after a flight. NASA developed high data-density, two-dimensional, machine-readable symbol technology used to mark individual tiles. This novel method of labeling products with invisible and virtually indestructible markings can be used on electronic parts, pharmaceuticals and livestock -- in fact on just about anything. Keep Cool Under Fire Materials from the Space Shuttle thermal protection system are used on NASCAR racing cars to protect drivers from the extreme heat generated by the engines. This same material is also used to protect firefighters. Fire Resistant Foam A unique foam developed for Space Shuttle thermal insulation and packing is now being used as thermal and acoustical insulation in aerospace, marine and industrial products. Since it's also fire resistant, it's being used as well for fire barriers, packaging and other applications requiring either high-temperature or very low-temperature insulation in critical environments. For example, use of these foam products by airframe manufacturers such as Boeing, Lockheed-Martin, and Airbus provides major weight savings, while retaining good thermal and acoustical properties in the various products. Fire Sighting A sensitive, gas infrared camera, used by NASA observers to monitor the blazing plumes from the Space Shuttle's solid rocket boosters is also capable of scanning for fires. Firefighters use this hand-held camera to pinpoint the hotspots of wildfires that rage out of control. Jeweler's Gem Jewelers no longer have to worry about inhaling dangerous asbestos fibers from the blocks they use as soldering bases. Space Shuttle heat-shield tiles offer jewelers a safer soldering base with temperature resistance far beyond the 1,400 degrees Fahrenheit generated by the jeweler's torch. Jet Stripping NASA developed a tool that uses powerful jet streams of water to strip paint and primer from the Space Shuttle's solid rocket boosters. A commercial version of this water jet is now used to treat turbine-engine components, airframe components, large aerospace hardware, ships and other mechanical devices, using only pure water. No hazardous chemicals are needed. Quick Fit Fasteners Fastening items in space is a difficult task. A Virginia company developed a fastener that can be pushed on, rather than turned. These quick-connect fasteners are flexible and strong, and have been used by NASA astronauts since 1989. The product is now in use by firefighters and nuclear power-plant repair technicians, and has other commercial applications. Computer Joysticks Computer games can now be played with all the precision and sensitivity needed for a safe and soft Space Shuttle touchdown. A game-controlling joystick for personal computer-based entertainment systems was modeled after controls used in shuttle simulators. Astronauts used the joystick to practice runway landings and orbit maneuvering. Toys for Tots Already successful with its Nerf toy products, Hasbro, Inc. wanted to design a toy glider that a child could fly. Benefiting from NASA wind-tunnel and aerodynamic expertise used in the Space Shuttle program, Hasbro improved the flying distances and loop-to-loop stunts of its toy gliders. Slick Products A lubricant used on the transporter that carries a Space Shuttle to the launch pad has resulted in a commercial penetrating-spray lube, which is used for rust prevention and loosening corroded nuts. It's also a cleaner and lubricant for guns and fishing reels, and can be used to reduce engine friction. 392071[/snapback] Great post! I always knew that NASA has done a lot to help us out in the world, but I didn't realize all the stuff they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMadCap Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 I found this on yahoo just a few minutes ago... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050728/ap_on_...HNlYwMlJVRPUCUl "The grounding of the space shuttle program following NASA's problems with insulating foam raised fears of layoffs at the Louisiana plant where the foam is applied. The plant supplies about 2,000 jobs, many of them high-paying, in an economically depressed area of New Orleans. "It's very depressing. We're concerned about our jobs, our livelihoods," said Mike Berger, an inspector for the foam application process who has worked at the Michoud Assembly Facility since 1980." So now we are supposed to feel sorry that thier incompetence may lead to thier high-paying jobs being taken away? These are the same folks who knew thier product was THE cause of seven people being killed, and did nothing to fix the problem, and thus came within a few seconds of destroying Discovery. I am SICK of NASA's "oh well, maybe nothing bad will happen" attitude toward manned flight. I remind you that Michoud has been promised the contract for the crew cabin on the CEV by head @ssclown Mike Griffen. Unreal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo mike Posted July 28, 2005 Author Share Posted July 28, 2005 I found this on yahoo just a few minutes ago...http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050728/ap_on_...HNlYwMlJVRPUCUl "The grounding of the space shuttle program following NASA's problems with insulating foam raised fears of layoffs at the Louisiana plant where the foam is applied. The plant supplies about 2,000 jobs, many of them high-paying, in an economically depressed area of New Orleans. "It's very depressing. We're concerned about our jobs, our livelihoods," said Mike Berger, an inspector for the foam application process who has worked at the Michoud Assembly Facility since 1980." So now we are supposed to feel sorry that thier incompetence may lead to thier high-paying jobs being taken away? These are the same folks who knew thier product was THE cause of seven people being killed, and did nothing to fix the problem, and thus came within a few seconds of destroying Discovery. I am SICK of NASA's "oh well, maybe nothing bad will happen" attitude toward manned flight. I remind you that Michoud has been promised the contract for the crew cabin on the CEV by head @ssclown Mike Griffen. Unreal... 392583[/snapback] Check this out- guess they picked the wrong time to announce thier new ride- The 60 million dollar Shuttle Experience. Wonder if it features " Falling Foam"..... http://www.collectspace.com/news/news-070605a.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 I found this on yahoo just a few minutes ago...http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050728/ap_on_...HNlYwMlJVRPUCUl "The grounding of the space shuttle program following NASA's problems with insulating foam raised fears of layoffs at the Louisiana plant where the foam is applied. The plant supplies about 2,000 jobs, many of them high-paying, in an economically depressed area of New Orleans. "It's very depressing. We're concerned about our jobs, our livelihoods," said Mike Berger, an inspector for the foam application process who has worked at the Michoud Assembly Facility since 1980." So now we are supposed to feel sorry that thier incompetence may lead to thier high-paying jobs being taken away? These are the same folks who knew thier product was THE cause of seven people being killed, and did nothing to fix the problem, and thus came within a few seconds of destroying Discovery. I am SICK of NASA's "oh well, maybe nothing bad will happen" attitude toward manned flight. I remind you that Michoud has been promised the contract for the crew cabin on the CEV by head @ssclown Mike Griffen. Unreal... 392583[/snapback] Two thousand people are employed for the sole purpose of spraying foam onto a giant beer can once a month? I love this country... By the way, they just apply the insulation. They don't write the specs for doing it. Ultimately, they just do what NASA tells them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevestojan Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 The fact that hundreds of millions of dollars being spent in 2005 can't prevent some foam from falling off the shuttle should make more people start to second guess the fact that we actually went through a successful launch, made it to outer space and landed on the moon, then launched from there back to earth in 1969... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 The fact that hundreds of millions of dollars being spent in 2005 can't prevent some foam from falling off the shuttle should make more people start to second guess the fact that we actually went through a successful launch, made it to outer space and landed on the moon, then launched from there back to earth in 1969... 392905[/snapback] Yeah...the problems with the shuttle program prove we didn't land on the moon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevestojan Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 Yeah...the problems with the shuttle program prove we didn't land on the moon. 392910[/snapback] I know you'd like that one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 I know you'd like that one! 392914[/snapback] The Niners finished 2-14 last year...kind of makes you question whether they ever went to the Superbowl, doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMadCap Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 The Niners finished 2-14 last year...kind of makes you question whether they ever went to the Superbowl, doesn't it? 392937[/snapback] Man, the decent was quick on this thread.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted July 29, 2005 Share Posted July 29, 2005 Man, the decent was quick on this thread.... 392962[/snapback] BF's gone...but in a pinch stojan's more than capable of holding his own. And he usually does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevestojan Posted July 30, 2005 Share Posted July 30, 2005 BF's gone...but in a pinch stojan's more than capable of holding his own.And he usually does. 392976[/snapback] i'll hold onto BF's helmet till he's ready to re-board the bus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted July 30, 2005 Share Posted July 30, 2005 i'll hold onto BF's helmet till he's ready to re-board the bus. 393896[/snapback] all I picture is BF crying like Manuel Wright after that rettata pickle juice asskicking he took. Someone needs to step up in his absence- BF was a source of great material Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMadCap Posted July 30, 2005 Share Posted July 30, 2005 all I picture is BF crying like Manuel Wright after that rettata pickle juice asskicking he took. Someone needs to step up in his absence- BF was a source of great material 393898[/snapback] BF is gone? Because of the pickle juice thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMadCap Posted July 30, 2005 Share Posted July 30, 2005 You know, I read a joke somewhere about how the space shuttle was designed due to the specifications of a horse's arse, I'll have to dig it up... Ok, I found it: http://www.succulent-plant.com/ephemera01.html Imperial Rome and the Space Shuttle There's always a reason, and the smallest most unimagined thing could be that reason. At least it's a good story. The US standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet, 8.5 inches. That's an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used? Because that's the way they built them in England, and English expatriates built the US Railroads. Why did the English build them like that? Because the first rail lines were built by the same people who built the pre-railroad tramways, and that's the gauge they used. Why did "they" use that gauge then? Because the people who built the tramways used the same jigs and tools that they used for building wagons, which used that wheel spacing. Okay! Why did the wagons have that particular odd wheel spacing? Well, if they tried to use any other spacing, the wagon wheels would break on some of the old, long distance roads in England, because that's the spacing of the wheel ruts. So who built those old rutted roads? Imperial Rome built the first long distance roads in Europe (and England) for their legions. The roads have been used ever since. And the ruts in the roads? Roman war chariots formed the initial ruts, which everyone else had to match for fear of destroying their wagon wheels. Since the chariots were made for Imperial Rome, they were all alike in the matter of wheel spacing. The United States standard railroad gauge of 4 feet, 8.5 inches is derived from the original specifications for an Imperial Roman war chariot. And bureaucracies live forever. So the next time you are handed a specification and wonder what horse's ass came up with it, you may be exactly right, because the Imperial Roman war chariots were made just wide enough to accommodate the back ends of two war horses. Now the twist to the story... When you see a Space Shuttle sitting on its launch pad, there are two big booster rockets attached to the sides of the main fuel tank. These are solid rocket boosters, or SRBs. The SRBs are made by Thiokol at their factory at Utah. The engineers who designed the SRBs would have preferred to make them a bit fatter, but the SRBs had to be shipped by train from the factory to the launch site. The railroad line from the factory happens to run through a tunnel in the mountains. The SRBs had to fit through that tunnel. The tunnel is slightly wider than the railroad track, and the railroad track, as you now know, is about as wide as two horses' behinds. So, a major Space Shuttle design feature of what is arguably the world's most advanced transportation system was determined over two thousand years ago by the width of a horse's ass... But Yet, so TRUE! I have quoted a historical study by NASA below: The director of NASA-Marshall, Eberhard Rees, had expressed hope that the shuttle would use a liquid booster, because that would provide more work for his center. Although he had been deeply involved with liquid rockets since the wartime V-2 effort, he now would have to change with the times. The Shuttle would use two 156-inch boosters, which were as large as could travel on American railroads. ref: Loftus et al., Evolution, p. 26; Astronautics & Aeronautics, January 1974, p. 72 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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