This made me just sick....

[Reuben Gant]

It is time for the world to stop referring to this disastrous period in Irish history as the Great Famine, and to fully realize, and to acknowledge, the magnitude of the crime that systematically destroyed Irish nationalism, the Irish economy, the Irish culture, and the Irish people.

[

388189[/snapback]

Some use gas chambers, others starvation.

[rockpile]

I don't think that is it. Religion just helps define the social differences,

they aren't doing it "for religion."

 

But yes both bomb innocents.

388187[/snapback]

Grafitti from the early 70's : "Kill A Commie for Christ"

 

Whose God are they praying to? The SAME ONE?

[Reuben Gant]

Grafitti from the early 70's : "Kill A Commie for Christ"

 

Whose God are they praying to? The SAME ONE?

388441[/snapback]

It is the Irish Republican Army.

 

The "cause" as it has been called is to unite the country.

[Lori]

Gavin, I agree with your central point - the Irish Catholics have suffered through centuries of often brutal British occupation, and they have the same right to fight the RA for their independence as my Continental ancestors did a couple of hundred years back. But in my book, deliberately targeting civilians = terrorism. And by that standard, I consider both the Provos and their 'Orange' foes terrorists - which makes Gerry Adams and his ilk no different than the radical Muslim clerics we're seeing on TV today.

 

Back to the letter JSP quoted. Unfortunately for the author and the comrade he lost in action against the IRA, the British Army - serving as an army of occupation - were legitimate military targets. I have to say, though, the gloating letters from the schoolchildren are a particularly nasty touch...

 

My opinions, such as they are. Feel free to disagree.

[Zona]

Rather than blame this on Democrats and Unionized people, why don't you just put the blame where it belongs:  Irish.

 

Most of the people were also white, so let's make it into a racist thing.

 

Most were also men, so let's make it a gender thing.

 

Most were also beer drinkers, so let's put the blame on beer drinkers.

 

You're right that this was a scandal, but you're wrong when you attribute it to people other than the Irish.

388178[/snapback]

 

I understood his comment to be about the people here in America who sent cards and letters saying how great it was that guy was killed. Also, those who KNOWINGLY supported the IRA.

 

Oh, one more thing. RE- Lori's post about Occupying Army. When does an occupying army become anything else, like a friendly force stationed at a foreign Base? Similar to Our Bases in Germany or Japan.

[lawnboy1977]

That my fellow countrymen would have done such a thing is repugnant to say the least, and I'll guarantee most of the people behind it are Democrats and Unionized.

387904[/snapback]

 

 

It's always them damn liberal commy bastards isnt it!!

[lawnboy1977]

In all seriousness though, what has happened in Northern Ireland over the past half century or so is just disgusting. I think many in this country don't realize the severity of the situation in that Dublin was probaly just as dangerous or even more so than places like Tel Aviv or anywehre along the Gaza Strip. Despite attempts by some on both sides, Irish, English and even US, to stop the madness, it never seemed to relent. What disturbs me is when most Americans refer to Muslims as terrorists and fail to understand what the Catholics and Protestants went through in Ireland.

 

What is it about religion that drive some to these extremes?

[Lori]

When does an occupying army become anything else, like a friendly force stationed at a foreign Base? Similar to Our Bases in Germany or Japan.

393802[/snapback]

Damn good question, and it depends on one's point of view.

 

Going back to Northern Ireland: Our family background is Protestant, so if I had grown up there, I'd probably be glad the Royal Army was there to protect me from the IRA. I imagine Gavin, a real live Irish Catholic, would have a far different opinion of the situation.....

 

To your post-WWII references - I'm not really sure when our forces morphed from occupiers to (somewhat) welcome allies. Probably not before the new, U.S.-friendly constitutions/governments were in place, though.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Damn good question, and it depends on one's point of view.

 

Going back to Northern Ireland: Our family background is Protestant, so if I had grown up there, I'd probably be glad the Royal Army was there to protect me from the IRA. I imagine Gavin, a real live Irish Catholic, would have a far different opinion of the situation.....

 

To your post-WWII references - I'm not really sure when our forces morphed from occupiers to (somewhat) welcome allies. Probably not before the new, U.S.-friendly constitutions/governments were in place, though.

396209[/snapback]

 

In Japan it happened rather quickly, as The Emperor "supported" the US occupation, which gave it divine legitimacy, and MacArthur's governance of Japan was rather enlightened. In Germany...I don't really know, but I suspect the Russian threat to the east gave the West Germans additional motivation to accept foreign troops.

 

In any case, I'd say both were special cases, and probably the exception rather than the rule. The rule, I'd think, is more like Vietnam, Napoleonic Spain, the USSR in Afghanistan...

[MelissaInPhilly]

I've heard of Noraid, and the whole Ireland thing seems strange to me. Everybody over there is white, so how can Catholics tell Protestands from each other, and vice versa.

 

BTW, I had an acquaintance from Ireland a few years back. She said that parts of Belfast are very nice, not all torn up like you see on television.

[Alaska Darin]

I've heard of Noraid, and the whole Ireland thing seems strange to me.  Everybody over there is white, so how can Catholics tell Protestands from each other, and vice versa.

398703[/snapback]

Different soccer jerseys.

[Britbillsfan]

But yeah, let's compare the IRA to Islamic terrorists...your British friend can go fug himself.

388189[/snapback]

Um, considering the Arab terrorists about whom you speak will point to similar incidents in their history whereby the infidel powers (take your pick, but high on the list are the US and UK) have installed regimes that have slaughtered their people, removed their rights, taken their land, stolen their resources then to compare the PIRA to Islamic Terrorists is EXACTLY right. They both use historical injustice to justify criminality and murder, and in the Islamic terrorists case most of the bad history is very recent, not in the mid 18th century or earlier.

 

The history of the UK / Ireland is one of mutual suspicion and hatred. It also has a lot to do with the fact that Ireland was constantly used as a base for the enemies of England (most notably the French and Spanish) to attack her, just as was the case with Scotland. Unsurprisingly the English kings did not appreciate this and there was a lot of mutual blood-letting.

 

The large majority of people of the six counties of Ulster that remain as part of the UK consider themselves to be British. To ignore what they democratically want is wrong. And until a majority in the six counties actually WANT to be part of Ireland rather than the UK who has any right to say different. It is not their fault that they and their recent ancestors happen to have been born there.

 

The reason the province was set up the way it was is due to the enormous sacrifice of the Ulstermen to the allied cause during the Great War and the fact if this was not done the Ulstermen would have gone their own way, still seperate from the rest of Ireland. The slaughter this is quite likely to have caused would be nothing to the civil war following home rule and the pathetic criminals of the PIRA have caused.

 

The Troubles in the counties occurred when the majority of pro-British protestants deliberately messed with the rights of the Catholic minority and a civil rights movement was born, which the PIRA jumped on for their own nefarious goals (these were and are not democratic freedom fighters, but Marxist bigots who wanted to overthrow the Irish government and reunite Ireland under their own rule, not the rule of their people. It is why the IRA AND Sein Fein was totally banned in Eire, whilst the latter was allowed to exist in the UK).

 

Early incompetance of the British military (they were initially cheered by the Catholics when they were sent in) allowed the culture of hate to really take root in the nationalist community. Learning to be a police / peacekeeping force is something that is very hard for an army to do (which is ONE of the reasons why the US military (especially) is not looked on as wonderful liberators in Iraq by a great many Iraqis, the learning curve is a gradual one and the conditions there are worse than those of Ulster but can be boiled down to 25% of the population don't want the coalition there, just like 25% of NI did not want the British there).

 

The history of Ireland is a dreadful stain on the history of my country, but the PIRA have little to do with history, they are racketeers, racists and Marxists who romanticise the history of Ireland and demonise the British for their evil purposes. Just like the Islamic scum of today roomanticise their own history and demonise the infidels to justify their own brand of evil.

[Britbillsfan]

Damn good question, and it depends on one's point of view.

 

Going back to Northern Ireland: Our family background is Protestant, so if I had grown up there, I'd probably be glad the Royal Army was there to protect me from the IRA. I imagine Gavin, a real live Irish Catholic, would have a far different opinion of the situation.....

 

To your post-WWII references - I'm not really sure when our forces morphed from occupiers to (somewhat) welcome allies. Probably not before the new, U.S.-friendly constitutions/governments were in place, though.

396209[/snapback]

The British Army (not been the Royal Army for quite a while) should not be called an occupation force when the vast majority of the population actively supports it being there and where they are deployed is actually part of their own country. Ironically the initial deployment was to protect the Catholics (who actually cheered them when they arrived) from the Protestant bigots and help them to get their rights. (Similar to troops being used in the Deep South to allow blacks to get their rights and help protect them in the early 60s). Unfortunately the IRA was able to stoke up trouble and Bloody Sunday was the rather inevitable result and it all went pear-shaped from their on in.

[Britbillsfan]

I've heard of Noraid, and the whole Ireland thing seems strange to me.  Everybody over there is white, so how can Catholics tell Protestands from each other, and vice versa.

 

BTW, I had an acquaintance from Ireland a few years back.  She said that parts of Belfast are very nice, not all torn up like you see on television.

398703[/snapback]

A lot of segregation historically. If you want to kill a Cathiolic / Protestant just go into their area and shoot someone at random (usually taxi drivers as they are the only ones about late at night when the rats come out to play).

 

True, Belfast has some very nice areas. Many US cities have a murder rate greater than that in the whole of Northern Ireland during the Troubles, and I would not expect entire US cities to be ugly wastelands.

[Britbillsfan]

In all seriousness though, what has happened in Northern Ireland over the past half century or so is just disgusting.  I think many in this country don't realize the severity of the situation in that Dublin was probaly just as dangerous or even more so than places like Tel Aviv or anywehre along the Gaza Strip.  Despite attempts by some on both sides, Irish, English and even US, to stop the madness, it never seemed to relent.  What disturbs me is when most Americans refer to Muslims as terrorists and fail to understand what the Catholics and Protestants went through in Ireland.

 

What is it about religion that drive some to these extremes?

393834[/snapback]

Uh, Dublin was marvelously safe. Apart from one nasty attack in the early 70s it was pretty much irrelevant to the campaigns of terror in the north. The only British troops in Eire proper were either guards at the embassey or recruiting officers (more Southern Irish (Catholic and Protestant) serve in the British Army than there have ever been total members of the PIRA).

 

Parts of Belfast were pretty nasty, as were some of the border areas with Eire (Ireland), but far better than Beirut was (after all there was a civil war there and a huge death toll).

 

As to the religion thing. I believe it has a lot more for parts of a community to hold and nurse a grudge that festers into violence rather than anything intrinsicly to do with religious beliefs. The PIRA were certainly not driven by deep Catholic faith, mainly by bigotry, a potent brew.