Reuben Gant Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Personally, I think the right to self-determination is a good reason just on it's own; I don't believe that any people should be forced to live by the whim of another. Of course, therein lies the paradox: if, in enforcing any Iraqi right to self-determination, we dicatate that they may not follow the laws they choose to make (e.g. Islam-based laws that limit individual rights to self-determination), we are in fact NOT allowing that right to self-determination ourselves. In effect, we'd be saying "You have only that freedom which we allow you to have"...which is frankly bull sh--. So ultimately, being somewhat of an idealist...I say if they want to choose laws limiting individual freedom, we have little choice but to let them. Reasons being not only the conundrum I mention above and my desire NOT to see us limiting other nations' definition of rights, but also the belief that such societal change that we'd WANT to see in Iraq and the Islamic world has to develop from within, and would ultimately be futile if forced on them from without. In other words, even trying to enforce some US vision of what "freedom" in Iraq should be is doomed to fail at best. We've provided them an opportunity to figure things out for themselves...frequently, that's the most you can do. (And yes, I know a bunch of people are going to chime in saying I've ignored the GWOT issues concerning Iraq, and that we can't risk Iraqi self-determination ultimately booting us out of that strategically important location. Yes, I did ignore that. Pointedly. Because if the case is that we have to dictate to the Iraqis what there laws must be in order to maintain a strategic presence, the Iraqi Constitution won't be worth even a roll of toilet paper anyway, and Iraqi self-determination will be subjugated to the whim of the American military effort...and the argument in this thread is then moot anyway.) 386339[/snapback] Thanks for that thoughtful reply. I was thinking the same thing as far as self-determination goes. But there lies more of the rub - self determination inside arbritrary borders. We are not really promoting self-determination for the Kurds or the Shia - but self-determination et. large. Also if self-determination later limits individual freedom, as you mention, does this not just give us the context for the next war of self-determination. (Actually a bit Jeffersonian when I think about it.) Both Germany and Japan had some experience with representative democracy before Hitler and Tojo- but given the mosaic of people in Iraq, and religious beliefs- it is possible that a democracy could radically curtail individual freedoms. I think that the "from within" model has to be given time to evolve, very difficult if there is no rule of law. What you wrote has given me plenty to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Not if youre in a room full of tools. 386468[/snapback] Which is generally how I describe my visits here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted July 20, 2005 Author Share Posted July 20, 2005 Indeed I do. You are not annointed to determine what is or is not orthodox in politics or in other's opinions or motivations, or to assume you speak for the citizenry. You can have your own opinion; what do ya gain by impunging that of others - evidently en masse? I hope you don't use such terms because some citizens dissent from your thoughts. Hubris can sneak up on the best of us...it's terribly addictive. Kelly, have a bit of trust in me and the other idiots. We've muddled through, riddled with faults, but our Nation is not a disaster. I know we remain friends, right? 386422[/snapback] When someone makes a blanket statement about the general populace, unless they are a general idiot themselves, they are not talking about each and every member but rather a majority, or a typical person is of that mindset. Not everyone, not 9 out of 10, just a general basic rule. Of course I don't portend to speak for everyone or know what everyone thinks. But without ever being able to prove it, I would say that a safe bet is that if you asked 280,000,000 people individually if Iraq had a democracy after we invaded them, and helped them write their constitution, would it resemble ours and have similar freedoms and women's rights, etc. It's just an opinion. And btw, most of the "idiots' as I refer to them are idiots only because they didn't bother to read up, or think about it, or take the time to understand it, and just went along with it because it sounded good on the surface. "Iraqis with Democracy? Sure, I'm all for that!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Live&DieBillsFootball Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Personally, I think the right to self-determination is a good reason just on it's own; I don't believe that any people should be forced to live by the whim of another. Of course, therein lies the paradox: if, in enforcing any Iraqi right to self-determination, we dicatate that they may not follow the laws they choose to make (e.g. Islam-based laws that limit individual rights to self-determination), we are in fact NOT allowing that right to self-determination ourselves. In effect, we'd be saying "You have only that freedom which we allow you to have"...which is frankly bull sh--. So ultimately, being somewhat of an idealist...I say if they want to choose laws limiting individual freedom, we have little choice but to let them. Reasons being not only the conundrum I mention above and my desire NOT to see us limiting other nations' definition of rights, but also the belief that such societal change that we'd WANT to see in Iraq and the Islamic world has to develop from within, and would ultimately be futile if forced on them from without. In other words, even trying to enforce some US vision of what "freedom" in Iraq should be is doomed to fail at best. We've provided them an opportunity to figure things out for themselves...frequently, that's the most you can do. (And yes, I know a bunch of people are going to chime in saying I've ignored the GWOT issues concerning Iraq, and that we can't risk Iraqi self-determination ultimately booting us out of that strategically important location. Yes, I did ignore that. Pointedly. Because if the case is that we have to dictate to the Iraqis what there laws must be in order to maintain a strategic presence, the Iraqi Constitution won't be worth even a roll of toilet paper anyway, and Iraqi self-determination will be subjugated to the whim of the American military effort...and the argument in this thread is then moot anyway.) 386339[/snapback] Personally, I always worried that the end result of giving the people of Iraq self-determination could result in an Islamic regime not much different than Iran. If this were to happen, what a waste the war will be in terms of lives sacrificed and dollars pissed away. But to force our will upon the people of Iraq could make things even worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 When someone makes a blanket statement about the general populace, unless they are a general idiot themselves, they are not talking about each and every member but rather a majority, or a typical person is of that mindset. Not everyone, not 9 out of 10, just a general basic rule. Of course I don't portend to speak for everyone or know what everyone thinks. But without ever being able to prove it, I would say that a safe bet is that if you asked 280,000,000 people individually if Iraq had a democracy after we invaded them, and helped them write their constitution, would it resemble ours and have similar freedoms and women's rights, etc. It's just an opinion. And btw, most of the "idiots' as I refer to them are idiots only because they didn't bother to read up, or think about it, or take the time to understand it, and just went along with it because it sounded good on the surface. "Iraqis with Democracy? Sure, I'm all for that!" 386496[/snapback] OK. Still friends? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Can you ship me a marble bust of yourself for my drawing room? If they are currently out of stock, I'll understand... 386432[/snapback] Sorry, fresh out of marble ones. I've got a nice one carved out of schist, but I'm afraid if I gave it to you you'd just take it for granite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of BiB Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 Sorry, fresh out of marble ones. I've got a nice one carved out of schist, but I'm afraid if I gave it to you you'd just take it for granite. 386691[/snapback] I saw the one carved out of schist. I'll pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 I saw the one carved out of schist. I'll pass. 386699[/snapback] Did it look like shist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of BiB Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 Did it look like shist? 386701[/snapback] Good thing I didn't step on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reuben Gant Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 When I was young, men never took a good bust for granite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of BiB Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 When I was young, men never took a good bust for granite. 386703[/snapback] budda bing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reuben Gant Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 budda bing 386706[/snapback] Lt. Frank Drebin has left the building. I repeat. Lt. Frank Drebin has left the building. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 I saw the one carved out of schist. I'll pass. 386699[/snapback] I see a lot of schist heads around here all the time, too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of BiB Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 I see a lot of schist heads around here all the time, too... 386711[/snapback] But no one here has the total cubic centimeter capacity of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuckincincy Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 Sorry, fresh out of marble ones. I've got a nice one carved out of schist, but I'm afraid if I gave it to you you'd just take it for granite. 386691[/snapback] No, I'll wait for the marble. Very gneiss of you to offer an alternative. I appreciate your kind sediments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 No, I'll wait for the marble. Very gneiss of you to offer an alternative. I appreciate your kind sediments. 386840[/snapback] OMG....WORST POST EVER!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 No, I'll wait for the marble. Very gneiss of you to offer an alternative. I appreciate your kind sediments. 386840[/snapback] Gneiss! I was sitting here writing that post thinking "Damn it, I'm forgetting a rock..." Good use of it, though. Very igneous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of BiB Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 Gneiss! I was sitting here writing that post thinking "Damn it, I'm forgetting a rock..." Good use of it, though. Very igneous. 386998[/snapback] I thought so too. I'll give it an 88. It has a good beat, and I can dance to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 Gneiss! I was sitting here writing that post thinking "Damn it, I'm forgetting a rock..." Good use of it, though. Very igneous. 386998[/snapback] STOP IT! STOP IT RIGHT NOW!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted July 21, 2005 Share Posted July 21, 2005 Good use of it, though. Very igneous. 386998[/snapback] Sedimentary, my dear Dexter. Sedimentary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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