Bill from NYC Posted July 18, 2005 Posted July 18, 2005 What would you have done instead that is better than this ho hum performance? 383728[/snapback] Did you bother to read his post? The following is his summary..... >>>>All in all it just was no big deal. My main beef is not with the various takes on TD and his performance here, it with all those who were going on and on about all the first rounders we were going to get for TH. TD never promised that. <<<< I think that Mickey is saying that those who were predicting a first round pick, Jason Taylor or Robert Gallery for Travis were equally incorrect to those who saw a realistic possibility of TH being cut. After all, you personally were quoted here as stating that a first round pick would not be enough for TH, and that you wanted a proven star instead, right? Imo, Mickey is making complete sense. Not only that, time will tell who got the best of this deal. In my own opinion, TD got a windfall for the Bills and their fans. I expect Travis to accomplish little in Tenn. and flounder in failure. I assert that his W/L record as a starter will continue to rank as one of the worst of any NFL player, and that he will not last long in the NFL. In any event, seeing brilliant moves such as this, it is actually hard for me to believe that TD is the same person who hired GW and Gilbride. I am quite pleased about having TD as the GM of the Buffalo Bills.
nfreeman Posted July 18, 2005 Posted July 18, 2005 In any event, seeing brilliant moves such as this, it is actually hard for me to believe that TD is the same person who hired GW and Gilbride. I am quite pleased about having TD as the GM of the Buffalo Bills. 383802[/snapback] Here's my 2 cents: 1. TH is a pretty good running back. Not great, but pretty darn good. Pluses were toughness, good in short yardage (esp. around the goal line), and productivity. Minuses were consistent fumbling (yes, I know he fumbled less in year 3 than in year 2, but I swear he put it on the ground just as much and was just able to pick it back up himself more of the time than in previous years) and injury prone. 2. However, McGahee is clearly better and TH was -- in another negative -- not willing to be a team player about it for one more year until he was a free agent. This is too bad because it's not like WM doesn't have an injury history -- ie it's fairly likely that we will need a good #2 back. 3. TD has done well in many respects but the record is what it is. I think he's built a solid organization. His drafts and free agent signings have been pretty good and represented good values. 4. However, he was 0 for 2 in the 2 biggest decisions he made initially -- Rob Johnson and Gregg Williams -- and you could easily count bledsoe in that column and say 0 for 3. QB and coach are so important. To think that we could've had Herman Edwards or John Fox instead of that loser GW is painful. And didn't everyone look at Bledsoe, coming after RJ, and see more of the same? Ie a big stiff who had a good arm but was completely clueless in the pocket about avoiding the rush and just got creamed time after time? 5. Bottom line is that TD has been on the scene for 4 years now and still no playoffs. We are relying on essentially a rookie QB to get us in this year. Clements is gone after this year and maybe Moulds also (I hope not on both). Mularkey seems like a good coach. If JP is good, we should be back in the playoffs. If he isn't, it's another huge mistake by TD and he will probably deserve to get canned. Holy mackarel I hope JP is good. But we are not going to know the answer to that EXTREMELY important question until sometime in November.
krazykat Posted July 18, 2005 Posted July 18, 2005 Gee, a third round pick for a starting running back hitting his prime. WOW!
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted July 18, 2005 Author Posted July 18, 2005 In any event, seeing brilliant moves such as this, it is actually hard for me to believe that TD is the same person who hired GW and Gilbride. I am quite pleased about having TD as the GM of the Buffalo Bills. 383802[/snapback] Here's my 2 cents: 4. However, he was 0 for 2 in the 2 biggest decisions he made initially -- Rob Johnson and Gregg Williams -- and you could easily count bledsoe in that column and say 0 for 3. QB and coach are so important. To think that we could've had Herman Edwards or John Fox instead of that loser GW is painful. And didn't everyone look at Bledsoe, coming after RJ, and see more of the same? Ie a big stiff who had a good arm but was completely clueless in the pocket about avoiding the rush and just got creamed time after time? 5. Bottom line is that TD has been on the scene for 4 years now and still no playoffs. We are relying on essentially a rookie QB to get us in this year. Clements is gone after this year and maybe Moulds also (I hope not on both). Mularkey seems like a good coach. If JP is good, we should be back in the playoffs. If he isn't, it's another huge mistake by TD and he will probably deserve to get canned. Holy mackarel I hope JP is good. But we are not going to know the answer to that EXTREMELY important question until sometime in November. 383864[/snapback] Generally i agree with the first three points with the parts of it I do disagree with to be mere quibbles so I will skip them. However, i think significant parts of your last two points differ from the info we have. I agree that TD completely blew his first HC hire picking GW who would have made an excellent Adminsitrative Assistant with his lists and contacts but simply sis not have the whole package to be even an adequate HC. However, though he was 0 for 1 with that decision, I think he made the correct decision in the RJ/Flutie deal becaise neither of them was going to be the QB of the future the Bills needed. Flutie was a great player for us when he was hear, but he was just too old and showed no signs of being the teacher we needed for our next QB because the same thing which makes him a great player also makes him a lousy teacher in that he has been trashed by so many people and teams he has the world's biggest chip on his shoulder and he is too competive to ever give in. It was pretty clear that RJ was a loser and not gonna be the QB we needed with his injury plagues year in 2000. However, Butler had already thrown a bunch of money at him and he was a far younger player than DF so i think TD made the right choice in picking which of these two to go with in what was clearly going to be a bad year. If DF had stayed we would have maybe gone 5-11 or at besy 6-10 instead of 3-13. I think TD made the right bad choice. Also I would give him a 1/2 and 1/2 for signing Bledsoe rather than an 0-1. Bledsoe was flay out a great thing for the Bills in his first year as we went from 3-13 to 8-8. If you believe that record is really the bottom-line then this has to be significant to you. In terms of the details of how we got there in addition to the W/L, I think Bledsoe deserve to be named a reserve on the Pro Bowl that year and if you disagree then simply name the QB you would have named to the team to leave him off. He clearly was a big part in rejuvenating Bills fans after a sorry 3-13 season as exemplified by the huge turnout to the Ralph for the welcome Drew party. TD did a great thing by pulling off this deal as the real world alternative of available QBs at the time would have seen Rodney Peete or Chris Chandler {shudder) leading this team. As good a decision as it was in the short run it turned just as bad in 2003 as opponents got enough tape on Bledsoe to figure out the Bills O and Belichick provided a roadmap on how to kill him. The real mistake though was that TD had chosen an HC with no offensive chops and then caved to GW's wishes to hire Keving Killdrive and not take TD's choice at the time who was Tom Clements. I think it all was a wash after two years and particularly when TD and the Bills were able to replace the 1st rounder they gave up for Bledsoe with a pick who became WM, it was then TD made his big mistake of redoing Bledsoe's deal. It was not a mistake at all to acquire Bledsoe (particularly given the alternatives), it was a mistake to resign him (a mistake we paid for by cutting him). As far as your 5th point i do agree that the bottomline for assessing the last 5 years is the record is bad, but the bottomline for assessing next season has to be his most recent record and recent decisions. Again if W/L is the bottomline we are moving in the right direction bigtime and to advocate that this team take a step back and start overgives no recognition to the fact that the major error of TD picking GW had been addressed and changed and that the other major error of resigning Bledsoe has also be addressed and changed. Yo the extent that the far better HC we have is willing and able to minimize the amount we depend upon this young QB to be a vet (which he isn't) and win games we are gonna lose. To the extent this team instead relies on the D led by a host of vets and the young guns on ST led by April to win games we will be fine.
beerme1 Posted July 18, 2005 Posted July 18, 2005 In any event, seeing brilliant moves such as this, it is actually hard for me to believe that TD is the same person who hired GW and Gilbride. I am quite pleased about having TD as the GM of the Buffalo Bills. 383802[/snapback] You sir, are bonafide TD Flunkie. Now pat yourself on the back and go get your man another bottle of water. It's hot in here!
nfreeman Posted July 18, 2005 Posted July 18, 2005 383864[/snapback] I think he made the correct decision in the RJ/Flutie deal becaise neither of them was going to be the QB of the future the Bills needed. Flutie was a great player for us when he was hear, but he was just too old and showed no signs of being the teacher we needed for our next QB because the same thing which makes him a great player also makes him a lousy teacher in that he has been trashed by so many people and teams he has the world's biggest chip on his shoulder and he is too competive to ever give in. It was pretty clear that RJ was a loser and not gonna be the QB we needed with his injury plagues year in 2000. However, Butler had already thrown a bunch of money at him and he was a far younger player than DF so i think TD made the right choice in picking which of these two to go with in what was clearly going to be a bad year. If DF had stayed we would have maybe gone 5-11 or at besy 6-10 instead of 3-13. I think TD made the right bad choice. 383892[/snapback] I don't disagree with your view on this -- I probably would have done the same thing (although it's worth mentioning that we could have dumped both Flutie and Johnson, saved another $5 million, since that was how much RJ was making, and kept Ted Washington). We definitely would have won more games with Flutie, but RJ had more upside. It was a reasonable decision based on the info then available to TD, but it turned out to be wrong. I would even say the same thing about hiring GW -- he clearly is a very good defensive coordinator, and a lot of good head coaches were first defensive coordinators. So it wasn't one of those decisions that at the time made you think that TD was crazy. However: when you get paid as much as TD is getting paid, and you are in charge of delivering a good football team to the owner and the fans, you have to take the heat when your important decisions turn out wrong. Coach and QB are the 2 biggest decisions that the GM has to make, and both turned out wrong. 383864[/snapback] Also I would give him a 1/2 and 1/2 for signing Bledsoe rather than an 0-1. Bledsoe was flay out a great thing for the Bills in his first year as we went from 3-13 to 8-8. If you believe that record is really the bottom-line then this has to be significant to you. In terms of the details of how we got there in addition to the W/L, I think Bledsoe deserve to be named a reserve on the Pro Bowl that year and if you disagree then simply name the QB you would have named to the team to leave him off. He clearly was a big part in rejuvenating Bills fans after a sorry 3-13 season as exemplified by the huge turnout to the Ralph for the welcome Drew party. TD did a great thing by pulling off this deal as the real world alternative of available QBs at the time would have seen Rodney Peete or Chris Chandler {shudder) leading this team. As good a decision as it was in the short run it turned just as bad in 2003 as opponents got enough tape on Bledsoe to figure out the Bills O and Belichick provided a roadmap on how to kill him. The real mistake though was that TD had chosen an HC with no offensive chops and then caved to GW's wishes to hire Keving Killdrive and not take TD's choice at the time who was Tom Clements. I think it all was a wash after two years and particularly when TD and the Bills were able to replace the 1st rounder they gave up for Bledsoe with a pick who became WM, it was then TD made his big mistake of redoing Bledsoe's deal. It was not a mistake at all to acquire Bledsoe (particularly given the alternatives), it was a mistake to resign him (a mistake we paid for by cutting him). 383892[/snapback] I don't necessarily disagree with you on this one either. I think it was actually another reasonable decision that worked out better than the GW and RJ decisions, but still not very well. No question that Bledsoe made the Bills very exciting during his first year, although he really tailed off towards the end of that season. It was reasonable to keep him for another year, during which he stunk. After that second year, it was either (i) pay him a $10 million bonus to keep him, (ii) re-do his contract or (iii) let him walk as a free agent. Option (i) was out of the question. Having brought in a new coach and a bunch of new weapons (Evans, McGahee, a healthy Moulds), it wasn't unreasonable to keep Bledsoe around one more year while JP apprenticed. Unfortunately, JP got hurt and Bledsoe stunk again. He was one of the worst 5-7 QBs in the league last year. If he was in the middle 10, we'd have been in the playoffs. It's fair to ask which QBs have been available over the past few years that would have done better. Kerry Collins? The backup on the Titans that we took a bit of a shot at? Brad Johnson? Possibly each of them would have been better, but maybe not -- no Tom Bradys were floating around. 383864[/snapback] As far as your 5th point i do agree that the bottomline for assessing the last 5 years is the record is bad, but the bottomline for assessing next season has to be his most recent record and recent decisions. Again if W/L is the bottomline we are moving in the right direction bigtime and to advocate that this team take a step back and start overgives no recognition to the fact that the major error of TD picking GW had been addressed and changed and that the other major error of resigning Bledsoe has also be addressed and changed. Yo the extent that the far better HC we have is willing and able to minimize the amount we depend upon this young QB to be a vet (which he isn't) and win games we are gonna lose. To the extent this team instead relies on the D led by a host of vets and the young guns on ST led by April to win games we will be fine. 383892[/snapback] I wouldn't advocate canning TD unless JP is a washout. He will probably get 2 seasons to prove himself. If after the next 2 seasons, it's clear that he stinks, the Bills will have been a .500 or worse team for 2 more years -- and then TD will have to go. If TD was right about JP, then we will be in the playoffs and TD will be vindicated. But he has to have been right about JP (or pull a good QB out of somewhere else). I need to see the Bills back in the playoffs. I NEED to go to the Ralph in January and see us send the Steelers or the Pats to the golf course for the winter.
RuntheDamnBall Posted July 18, 2005 Posted July 18, 2005 Oh give me fuggin break. We drafted Henry in the second round. He was a pro bowl running back, and was a proven NFL running back. We just traded him for a 3rd round future pick. Yeah, he should get executive of the year for this one. Best job ever by a team president. Polian who? 383502[/snapback] Tell me, what would we have "gotten for him" when we lost him in free agency? And what would we have gotten from him this next year? In return for a one-dimensional-albeit-hard-working back with injury history, who didn't want to be here, who had one year remaining on his contract, and was not going to re-sign with us, we got a first-day pick in what looks to be a very good draft. That doesn't make TD a genius, but it makes him smart, and I'm happy with the move.
dave mcbride Posted July 18, 2005 Posted July 18, 2005 Here's my 2 cents: 4. However, he was 0 for 2 in the 2 biggest decisions he made initially -- Rob Johnson and Gregg Williams -- and you could easily count bledsoe in that column and say 0 for 3. QB and coach are so important. To think that we could've had Herman Edwards or John Fox instead of that loser GW is painful. And didn't everyone look at Bledsoe, coming after RJ, and see more of the same? Ie a big stiff who had a good arm but was completely clueless in the pocket about avoiding the rush and just got creamed time after time? 5. Bottom line is that TD has been on the scene for 4 years now and still no playoffs. We are relying on essentially a rookie QB to get us in this year. Clements is gone after this year and maybe Moulds also (I hope not on both). Mularkey seems like a good coach. If JP is good, we should be back in the playoffs. If he isn't, it's another huge mistake by TD and he will probably deserve to get canned. Holy mackarel I hope JP is good. But we are not going to know the answer to that EXTREMELY important question until sometime in November. 383864[/snapback] Generally i agree with the first three points with the parts of it I do disagree with to be mere quibbles so I will skip them. However, i think significant parts of your last two points differ from the info we have. I agree that TD completely blew his first HC hire picking GW who would have made an excellent Adminsitrative Assistant with his lists and contacts but simply sis not have the whole package to be even an adequate HC. However, though he was 0 for 1 with that decision, I think he made the correct decision in the RJ/Flutie deal becaise neither of them was going to be the QB of the future the Bills needed. Flutie was a great player for us when he was hear, but he was just too old and showed no signs of being the teacher we needed for our next QB because the same thing which makes him a great player also makes him a lousy teacher in that he has been trashed by so many people and teams he has the world's biggest chip on his shoulder and he is too competive to ever give in. It was pretty clear that RJ was a loser and not gonna be the QB we needed with his injury plagues year in 2000. However, Butler had already thrown a bunch of money at him and he was a far younger player than DF so i think TD made the right choice in picking which of these two to go with in what was clearly going to be a bad year. If DF had stayed we would have maybe gone 5-11 or at besy 6-10 instead of 3-13. I think TD made the right bad choice. Also I would give him a 1/2 and 1/2 for signing Bledsoe rather than an 0-1. Bledsoe was flay out a great thing for the Bills in his first year as we went from 3-13 to 8-8. If you believe that record is really the bottom-line then this has to be significant to you. In terms of the details of how we got there in addition to the W/L, I think Bledsoe deserve to be named a reserve on the Pro Bowl that year and if you disagree then simply name the QB you would have named to the team to leave him off. He clearly was a big part in rejuvenating Bills fans after a sorry 3-13 season as exemplified by the huge turnout to the Ralph for the welcome Drew party. TD did a great thing by pulling off this deal as the real world alternative of available QBs at the time would have seen Rodney Peete or Chris Chandler {shudder) leading this team. As good a decision as it was in the short run it turned just as bad in 2003 as opponents got enough tape on Bledsoe to figure out the Bills O and Belichick provided a roadmap on how to kill him. The real mistake though was that TD had chosen an HC with no offensive chops and then caved to GW's wishes to hire Keving Killdrive and not take TD's choice at the time who was Tom Clements. I think it all was a wash after two years and particularly when TD and the Bills were able to replace the 1st rounder they gave up for Bledsoe with a pick who became WM, it was then TD made his big mistake of redoing Bledsoe's deal. It was not a mistake at all to acquire Bledsoe (particularly given the alternatives), it was a mistake to resign him (a mistake we paid for by cutting him). As far as your 5th point i do agree that the bottomline for assessing the last 5 years is the record is bad, but the bottomline for assessing next season has to be his most recent record and recent decisions. Again if W/L is the bottomline we are moving in the right direction bigtime and to advocate that this team take a step back and start overgives no recognition to the fact that the major error of TD picking GW had been addressed and changed and that the other major error of resigning Bledsoe has also be addressed and changed. Yo the extent that the far better HC we have is willing and able to minimize the amount we depend upon this young QB to be a vet (which he isn't) and win games we are gonna lose. To the extent this team instead relies on the D led by a host of vets and the young guns on ST led by April to win games we will be fine. 383892[/snapback] i agree with neil and disagree strongly about johnson. a lot of this stems from having seen johnson at usc, who *always* played poorly in the big games every year against ucla and notre dame (2 teams he never beat, despite having tony boselli on o-line and, in succession, 3 first round WRs: curtis conway, johnny morton, and keyshawn johnson). in retrospect, the bills' greatest weakness in 01 was their miserable offensive line, and flutie's strength is in mitigating poor line play. johnson's greatest weakness was in making a bad line look even worse than it was (see his performance in washington under spurrier for more proof). to be fair, the decision to keep johnson appeared to gregg williams's more than donohoe's. williams was tight with gilbride, who had loved johnson in the late 90s and tried to get beathard to trade the #3 overall to jax for him when he got the SD coaching job. it didn't happen, and instead they traded up to get ryan leaf. regardless, johnson has proven to be a loser or at least a tease, and i thought that should have been apparent after the 2000 season (another injury-marred campaign). i think donohoe went against his instincts in listening to williams, and i betcha dollars to donuts that if he had to do it all over again, he would have kept flutie. a 3-13 record is never a good thing, despite the high draft position it'll land you.
Spiderweb Posted July 18, 2005 Posted July 18, 2005 That is one way to look at it. And all of what you say is true. The other way to look at it is that TD got Travis virtually for free (remember he traded down, picked Clements a pro-bowl caliber player and then got Henry, too, for that pick). Got three good seasons out of him including two that went for about 2800 yards and 25 TDs, got an extra year out of him for a relatively small amount of money on an extension, waited until his stud RB he gambled on was healthy and ready, and then got a third round pick (probably top of the third round) for the guy when he was going to be a back-up and/or leave via FA. I think that's pretty damn good. 383499[/snapback] Sums it up very nicely. Let's not forget that during the draft we were getting 5th round offers IIRC., and not many of those either. We lose a solid, tough runner with less than admirable pass catching and blocking skills. TH was not what one would call a complete back. For those who wanted help immediately, sorry. Next year is always on the minds of "most" GM's around the league and this is solid and fair.
GG Posted July 18, 2005 Posted July 18, 2005 [snip] to be fair, the decision to keep johnson appeared to gregg williams's more than donohoe's. williams was tight with gilbride, who had loved johnson in the late 90s and tried to get beathard to trade the #3 overall to jax for him when he got the SD coaching job. it didn't happen, and instead they traded up to get ryan leaf. 384087[/snapback] Minor nit - Sheppard was the OC in the RJ/DF decision making days. Brilliant move to switch a team that was adequately adept offensively into a new west coast system for which you had no personnel in-house, nor the cap room to add the players you needed to make it work. Brilliant.
dave mcbride Posted July 18, 2005 Posted July 18, 2005 Minor nit - Sheppard was the OC in the RJ/DF decision making days. Brilliant move to switch a team that was adequately adept offensively into a new west coast system for which you had no personnel in-house, nor the cap room to add the players you needed to make it work. Brilliant. 384122[/snapback] gerry, i know sheppard was the oc that year, but in retrospect it seems to me that williams maintained a relationship with gilbride, who was with him for a long time for the oilers. as well, the year of the decision, gilbride was, shall we say, available to offer free advice to anyone asking.
Mickey Posted July 18, 2005 Posted July 18, 2005 What would you have done instead that is better than this ho hum performance? 383728[/snapback] I would have done no better and no worse and certainly wouldn't have claimed to be a genius. Of course, I wouldn't have picked him to begin with and how that would have worked out, we will never know since we can't rewind history. Look, if you think this was some sort of brilliant coup on his part, tell me what was so incredibly brillliant? You said yourself that "One can easily claim that TD did not pull off a miracle here..." but when I say the same thing you challenge me to prove how it could have been done better. My arguement over and over and over, that for some reason you are just not getting, is that Travis Henry is an average back, not worth the first or second round picks that so many, especially before the draft, were so certain he was worth. I am not upset that TD didn't do better than a third, my argument is actually that he was not worth anything more than a third. I can't state it any more plainly FFS. You act as if I am among those who think TH was worth more, quite the contrary, those are the people I have been arguing with since before the draft.
MadBuffaloDisease Posted July 18, 2005 Posted July 18, 2005 I would have done no better and no worse and certainly wouldn't have claimed to be a genius. Of course, I wouldn't have picked him to begin with and how that would have worked out, we will never know since we can't rewind history. More than a few here would have traded Henry straight-up for Shelton, or taken the swap of 2nd's with the Cards, or possibly even panicked into taking a 5th rounder for Travis. I know that's what VA in BiNYC would have done. But I don't recall what you were saying at the time so I don't know if you would have done the same, and of course now you would say you would have waited.
Bill from NYC Posted July 18, 2005 Posted July 18, 2005 More than a few here would have traded Henry straight-up for Shelton, or taken the swap of 2nd's with the Cards, or possibly even panicked into taking a 5th rounder for Travis. I know that's what VA in BiNYC would have done. But I don't recall what you were saying at the time so I don't know if you would have done the same, and of course now you would say you would have waited. 384496[/snapback] You are right about me and wrong about Mickey. He never (that I can recall) made statements about Travis having little value, as did I. We will see how this plays out. A trade such as this cannot be judged until we see how Travis performs and what we as an organization do with this 3rd round pick, which could involve moving up or down, a trade for a player, etc. That said, I am thrilled by this deal, and consider it one of the best moves by TD since his arrival in the great reigon of WNY. At least for now.
MadBuffaloDisease Posted July 18, 2005 Posted July 18, 2005 We will see how this plays out. A trade such as this cannot be judged until we see how Travis performs and what we as an organization do with this 3rd round pick, which could involve moving up or down, a trade for a player, etc. It's immaterial what he does for the Titans. The best the Bills were getting for him was a 3rd and if they didn't make the deal, they would have gotten nothing once he left the team as an UFA. And what the Bills do with the pick is also immaterial, for that very same reason. The only thing that can give me pause is if a team loses a RB and is willing to offer a high pick for a lesser-quality RB than Travis was.
Bill from NYC Posted July 18, 2005 Posted July 18, 2005 It's immaterial what he does for the Titans. The best the Bills were getting for him was a 3rd and if they didn't make the deal, they would have gotten nothing once he left the team as an UFA. And what the Bills do with the pick is also immaterial, for that very same reason. The only thing that can give me pause is if a team loses a RB and is willing to offer a high pick for a lesser-quality RB than Travis was. 384576[/snapback] Did you ignore the end of my post? I don't think that anybody on this board is happier about this trade than me!
stuckincincy Posted July 18, 2005 Posted July 18, 2005 Did you ignore the end of my post? I don't think that anybody on this board is happier about this trade than me! 384579[/snapback] A feeding frenzy of I'm right you're wrong is afoot, Bill. A mob, my friend, a mob! I say no more amity, no more loquacioius understanding. I'm formulating my battle plans. I'll not be falsly gigged again
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted July 19, 2005 Author Posted July 19, 2005 I would have done no better and no worse and certainly wouldn't have claimed to be a genius. Of course, I wouldn't have picked him to begin with and how that would have worked out, we will never know since we can't rewind history. Look, if you think this was some sort of brilliant coup on his part, tell me what was so incredibly brillliant? You said yourself that "One can easily claim that TD did not pull off a miracle here..." but when I say the same thing you challenge me to prove how it could have been done better. My arguement over and over and over, that for some reason you are just not getting, is that Travis Henry is an average back, not worth the first or second round picks that so many, especially before the draft, were so certain he was worth. I am not upset that TD didn't do better than a third, my argument is actually that he was not worth anything more than a third. I can't state it any more plainly FFS. You act as if I am among those who think TH was worth more, quite the contrary, those are the people I have been arguing with since before the draft. 384490[/snapback] My sense is and what I have been trying to say is that there seems to be a range of reactions and this is my reaction to them. A. TD pulled off a miracle here getting a 3rd for TH- Nope, I disagree. I think the work that TD did to get a 1st after the end of his original contract for Price was a lot better than the result of getting a 3rd for TH, but neither move qualifies as being a miracle or some extraordinary act by a GM. I think the work that JJ did getting an absolute ton of resources for Herschel Walker from MN was approaching "miracle" status or trading the draft pick used for Rickey Williams for Ditka's whole draft were deals done by their GMs of mythic proportions, but getting a 3rd for Henry is relatively small potatatoes compared to these gets. B. TD did a very good job as a GM getting a 3ed for TH- I agree with this one. One can take the view that a 3rd is easily what a former Pro Bowler who has gained 1300+ yards twice in his career is worth. Perhaps, but taking this view ignores several points: 1. In assessing TH's play it needs to be taken into account that there were some significant injury issues surrounding this player. While the trade pending an examibnation is usually a formality, I actually am holding my breath a little hoping/assuming this will be done. I think the biggest downside for TH is actually given his running style, not huge body, history of nicks like his 2003 fracture and 2004 injury if I was an opposing GM i would not be willing to give up much at all for TH. TD has handled this issue quite well and it easily could have gotten out of hand and been a deal killer. 2. I think that TD correctly read the market however and set a negituating demand of a 2nd for Henry seeing that injury issues which almost certainly will occur for some RB somewhere is likely to make some team desperate enough to part with at least a 3rd if not a 2nd for TH. As it happened, Jax with Taylor an TN with Brown fit this description and I think TD deserves a lot of credit for correctly seeing what the market would likely be even before we knew for sure that an unexpected off0season hand injury to Brown and a poor medical report on Taylor made them the two candidates. It would have been quite understandable for a less skillful GM than TD to take the bird-in-the-hand of offers of a 5th and then 4th and from TN or even Shelton at draft time given our LT issues. However, TD did not fold on these offers and though this is far from a miracle represents good work. 3. TD did a great GM job by taking a step which is not everyone's first choice but i think will now become the norm of letting the player do TD's work by assessing the market and soliciting offers. Most GMs do this work themselves and actually are at a disadvantage in terms of negotiations because they have approached a potential partner about a deal. TD did great GM work managing the ibviously truculent and not always bright TH to get him to do this work (the same as he managed Peerless well when Peerless reacted negatively at first to being tagged, but TD had his trust so that he got him to shut up and let TD work. It is easy to see how a bad job could be done with a player who is so frustrated he leaves town and says he will never play for the Bills again. I think TD deserves plaudits for keeping his eye on the prize and consistently keeping another option alive in the marketplace by always saying the Bills would love to have TH back. Other GMs such as AZ and Cleve did not do a good job on this and essentially said screw you publicly to mouthy players like Verba and Shelton who in the end were in fact cut. A ratonal observer should give TD credit for not taking this bait and simply working the trade/ 4. TH gave the Bills a gift by mismanging his money and having to give another year to the Bills to use him as a commodity. I think it was a GM no-braner for TD to take this gift but it seems rediculous to me not to give him credit for also exploiting this gift to trade TH for a 3rd after the end of TH's original agreement. On the whole TD did what any GM would do to take the extension fior chump change but he did use this tool to our advantage getting a 3rd beyond the original TH contract term when by rule and typical practice this type of player would be gone with no compensation for the team.. 5. TD did a great job standing up to internal pressure from some of his customers to make a deal any deal or to simply cut what they falsely considered a cancer (TH is stupid and not a positive at all beyond his rushing in two seasons, but I have seen cancers and Henry's hissy fits do not qualify) and also extrnal pressure from outside observers like Clayton and the fool at PFW. One might argue that a GM should stand up to this pressure, but some do not and I think that a rationale examination recognizes TD for doing this. 6+. I think there are other items one can easily give TD credit for which many GMs or even the average GM is not able to do that add up toTD doing a good job. C. TD did what any GM would have done to accomplish the non-rextraordinary task of getting a 3rd for TH. My operception is that his is what you are saying and if so you are saying something which I think does not take a real view of all the things which TG as GM has done with this that make this accomplishment above the norm for a GM and actually a very good job. D. We spent a 2nd to choose Henry and getting anything less than a 2nd for him means we were ripped off. I think this is so wrong it is funny. Idiots like Florio at PFW and Clayton at ESPN may take this line but it simply ignores so many factors that who needs to go into them in detail. So forgive me if I am wrong and you too think that TD did a very good job. However, I perceive you are saying that the job he did was not extraordinary at all and what is to be expected from and produced by most GMs. This is not true. Few GMs actually achieve getting resources at all for a player who reaches the end of the time he signed up for, TD has now done this twice getting a first by T-tagging Peerless and by making use of TH's poor money management to get an extra year out of him and using that extra year to trade him for a resource. His work iis not a miracle by any means, but it is clearly a good job he has done and strikes me as part of a roll he is on after his debacle of hiring GW, of now doin a great job managing the Peerless situation, drafting WM, cuting Bledsoe after making the mistake of resigning him, hiring MM, finally producing a winning record under his tenure last year. etc. TD is a mixed bag in total assessment, but the news has been so much better than his initial faux pas that I cannot helped but be psyched about his work.
VABills Posted July 19, 2005 Posted July 19, 2005 Okay, back from vacation and a friend pointed out that you retards are all in glee over a 3rd for Travis. Great job by TD IMHO, however, I have been saying a 4th or 5th all along. A 3rd is only one up from that and my opinion was a lot closer than you window lickers who thought we would get a 1st, Galary, Jason Taylor, etc... Again good job from TD, but again I was a lot closer to right then you tards were.
taterhill Posted July 19, 2005 Posted July 19, 2005 Okay, back from vacation and a friend pointed out that you retards are all in glee over a 3rd for Travis. Great job by TD IMHO, however, I have been saying a 4th or 5th all along. A 3rd is only one up from that and my opinion was a lot closer than you window lickers who thought we would get a 1st, Galary, Jason Taylor, etc... Again good job from TD, but again I was a lot closer to right then you tards were. 384910[/snapback] I vote you go back on vacation...
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