CentralVaBills Posted July 17, 2005 Posted July 17, 2005 Oh give me fuggin break. We drafted Henry in the second round. He was a pro bowl running back, and was a proven NFL running back. We just traded him for a 3rd round future pick. Yeah, he should get executive of the year for this one. Best job ever by a team president. Polian who?
CentralVaBills Posted July 17, 2005 Posted July 17, 2005 no one has offered a 3rd round pick for Sea Alexander or IND james but for a less talented RB wth injury, fumble, attitude and leagal issues, TD got a 3rd round pick I'm Amazed.. and very impressed with TD 383392[/snapback] And a salary that everyone could afford. It had more to do with salary than which back they were getting.
MadBuffaloDisease Posted July 17, 2005 Posted July 17, 2005 This is rich! People who at one time were saying "Travis isn't worth a 2nd rounder because the Pats got Dillon for that much and he's a better RB" are NOW saying that TD should have gotten MORE because Travis was a former 2nd rounder and Pro Bowler?!
CentralVaBills Posted July 17, 2005 Posted July 17, 2005 This is rich! People who at one time were saying "Travis isn't worth a 2nd rounder because the Pats got Dillon for that much and he's a better RB" are NOW saying that TD should have gotten MORE because Travis was a former 2nd rounder and Pro Bowler?! 383505[/snapback] No, most of us didn't say anything at all the first time around, and are pretty unimpressed about this whole trade at all. So, the I'm gonna stroke off TD for doing the VERY unspectacular is just stupid. Draft Henry in the second. He becomes a more than serviceable RB in the NFL and a pro bowl. And the end result is that TD gets a 3rd for him. WHEWWWWWWWWWWWWW. How impressive! To me, this thread is a reason for this icon.......
Kelly the Dog Posted July 17, 2005 Posted July 17, 2005 No, most of us didn't say anything at all the first time around, and are pretty unimpressed about this whole trade at all. So, the I'm gonna stroke off TD for doing the VERY unspectacular is just stupid. Draft Henry in the second. He becomes a more than serviceable RB in the NFL and a pro bowl. And the end result is that TD gets a 3rd for him. WHEWWWWWWWWWWWWW. How impressive! To me, this thread is a reason for this icon....... 383507[/snapback] TD got Travis for free.
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted July 17, 2005 Author Posted July 17, 2005 As for TD, he didn't pull of any miracle here, he got rid of a good back for less than it cost us to get him. The reaction here by some that this verifies his genius is embarassing to watch. This may very well be one of the most insignificant trades we have ever made. 383497[/snapback] I think you overclaim why folks think did a good job here. I think everyone knows he did not pull off a miracle here (it's just football afterall so nothing galactic here at all). However, what TD did do was: 1. Took a different path than the foolishness and non-football assessment of some fans that said loudly and repeatedly that TH had no value because he was a bad player, that the failure to get a trade for him before the draft proved this. Wrong because we got a 1st day draft pick for him. 2. Resisted the more serious flawed non-football thinking of those like John Clauton and Pro Football Weekly who argued that the Bills were going to get screwed and get nothing for not taking the 5th TN originally offered for TH. 3. Easily ignored the non-footbsll thinking of those who said that Henry was a cancer who should be cut (I think these folks were actually TH relatives because it would have been ato TH's advantage if TD had foolishly done this. It is true that this deal is not perfect for us in that it would have been better for us to get a player who would give us a benefit this yeae rather than merely getting a first day draft pick next year. Hey, you can't have everything. One can easily claim that TD did not pull off a miracle here, but to claim because he did not that he did nothing ignores reality. Besides even looking at the football specifics here your claim that we got less back then we spent to get TH is actually only a partial view. First, in addition to the spent a 2nd and got a 3rd comparison one should not ignore that we also got 2 years of good production and 3 years of entertainment out of TH for the draft pick. Quite frankly this about as much as a team can reasonably expect out of any draft pick because uually after 4 years the pick can leave witn no compensation as an FA. Bills fans have actually been spoiled by TD because there is now an expectation after his nice maneuver with Peerless that we should covert each FA who leaves into a 1st or some other benefit. This is not normally the case at all. What did Cincy get for Spikes? What did we trade away to get Spikes? Nada and nothing. Because TH is a bad financial manager rather than paying through the nose for him after four years or having him walk as was his right with us getting nothing we got something (a 3rd) for nothing because TD was happy to give him half a million in exchange for a year of freedom. When you add in to that Henry was actually acquired not using our regular draft resource but because TD actually was able to trade down with our 1st in 2001 and pick up an extra second choice and still get the first CB (Clements) taken in the draft (again something for nothin) it is arguable that we did not get less than we spent to get Henry.
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted July 17, 2005 Author Posted July 17, 2005 This is rich! People who at one time were saying "Travis isn't worth a 2nd rounder because the Pats got Dillon for that much and he's a better RB" are NOW saying that TD should have gotten MORE because Travis was a former 2nd rounder and Pro Bowler?! 383505[/snapback] The whole thing is quite amusing to this football obsever. The arguments that some folks are making that this deal is nothing at all are hilarious. They are totally correct that TD has not pulled off a miracle here, but appear pretty out to lunch to recognize that he did pull off a good football trade. If anything, TD has further a problematic precedent as the rules do not call for us to get anything at all if a player chooses to pursue the free market after the end of his original contract. Thia ia not the best deal TD has ever pulled off for the Bills because that honor goes to the Peerless deal where he turned the nothing we were owed at the end of the contract for this second round choice into a 1st. This time he merely turned the nothing we were entitled to at end of TH's original contract into a 3rd. The rule and the usual occurence is that FAs are free at the end of their original contracts and TD and the Bills are setting a precedent that this can actually be turned into draft resources. The occurence is more like that of Jonas Jennings and the exception is the rare cases of good work like TD and the Bills did with Price and TH. It is amusing to watch folks not recognize this.
beerme1 Posted July 17, 2005 Posted July 17, 2005 The whole thing is quite amusing to this football obsever. The arguments that some folks are making that this deal is nothing at all are hilarious. They are totally correct that TD has not pulled off a miracle here, but appear pretty out to lunch to recognize that he did pull off a good football trade. If anything, TD has further a problematic precedent as the rules do not call for us to get anything at all if a player chooses to pursue the free market after the end of his original contract. Thia ia not the best deal TD has ever pulled off for the Bills because that honor goes to the Peerless deal where he turned the nothing we were owed at the end of the contract for this second round choice into a 1st. This time he merely turned the nothing we were entitled to at end of TH's original contract into a 3rd. The rule and the usual occurence is that FAs are free at the end of their original contracts and TD and the Bills are setting a precedent that this can actually be turned into draft resources. The occurence is more like that of Jonas Jennings and the exception is the rare cases of good work like TD and the Bills did with Price and TH. It is amusing to watch folks not recognize this. 383516[/snapback] Um, actually I think that using Jonas who was an FA as compared to anyone who was not an FA and saying it's the same is hillarious. Remember not that long ago, say maybe about week two or three at the latest of pre season last year when your hero TD COULD HAVE GOTTEN at least a second and quite probably a first rounder then and there for Travis? Well the experts then insisted that it didnt matter TD could still get that later on anyway. You know, your Peter King's, your John Clayton's those type of guys that whenever asked said Travis was worth a first round pick. I don't put much faith in what those guys have to say but, the time was right. Last Year! Do you remember those days? I am starting to think that you are the son of satans son or perhaps ralph's illegitimate daughter as you refuse to recognize this! So to recap, it doesn't matter where he was drafted, it matters what we could have got for him. Your hero could have got more back in the day, but not now. So to wrap it up neatly for you, YAY! TD got a third for TH. It could have been worse. Of course in hindsight, it could have been so much better, in that if he traded at the appropriate time last year, he/we could have had a first round pick this year. Do you see this or not? Right now I don't care. He got something for what would have been a holdout. Great butcher job but try to come out clean!
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted July 17, 2005 Author Posted July 17, 2005 I have seen it said a couple of times now that TD could have gotten a second or even a first if he had "simply" traded TH at some point before now but by greedily hanging onto him and looking for more (I'm not sure what more than a 1st for him would be unless folks are alleged to be willing to part with two picks or a pick and a player for TH would be). Look, the maximum value I have ever heard someone even semi-reputable discuss for TH was someone at ESPN (Len PassthePotatoes perhaps) talk about the Bills getting a 1st for TH after last season ended. It is sucah a longway from a pundit's thoughts to a real deal that though it was nice to hear I don't think it qualifies at all as TH could definitely been moved for a 1st. In terms of actual deals that appear to have been offered for TH which TD passed on (and was lambasted for doing so by folks such as Jon Clayton and Pro Football Weekly) were: 1. AZ publicly offered Shelton for TH straight-up. The Bills seemed (simply seemed) to counter with an ask for Shelton AND a conditional draft pick. AZ refused this counter offer and actually cut Shelton. 2. TN initially offered a 5th for TH when they entered the TH derby a few weeks ago. What deal asllegedly and what real offer of a 1st or a 2nd was out there for TH?
eball Posted July 17, 2005 Posted July 17, 2005 What deal allegedly and what real offer of a 1st or a 2nd was out there for TH? 383574[/snapback] exactly. does anyone for a second believe that the bills would not have traded TH for a 2nd or 1st if that deal had been on the table? please.
MadBuffaloDisease Posted July 17, 2005 Posted July 17, 2005 The Bills MIGHT have gotten a 2nd or a 1st after the 2003 season, because the market was so bad. But once that off-season was over, so were the deals. Then this off-season hit, and there was a glut on the RB market, to the tune of being able to get not one but TWO consistent Pro Bowler and top-5 RB's for a 3rd rounder (although admittedly having to pony up some big bucks). So TD got the best he could, given Travis' threats to not play for the Bills again and his demands for a contract extension, which lessens his bargaining position.
Rico Posted July 17, 2005 Posted July 17, 2005 Two posters are most conspicuous by their absence... must be an extended business trip.
Kelly the Dog Posted July 17, 2005 Posted July 17, 2005 Two posters are most conspicuous by their absence...must be an extended business trip. 383627[/snapback] VA is actually on vacation. He has an excuse. Bill in NYC is wandering aimlessly around NYC looking for a place to drink and smoke.
Rico Posted July 17, 2005 Posted July 17, 2005 VA is actually on vacation. He has an excuse. Bill in NYC is wandering aimlessly around NYC looking for a place to drink and smoke. 383630[/snapback] I would push the "Thank God TH is gone "angle hard,combined with a little "Floyd Reese is an idiot"... that's the best spin.
Peter Posted July 17, 2005 Posted July 17, 2005 There is no question that I would have preferred to get a second round pick. Yet, keep in mind, we (reportedly) are getting a third round pick for a guy who only has one year left on his contract. If he had more years left, we probably would have had more leverage. There also is the issue of supply and demand. There are better RBs who also are reportedly available for a third. Finally, I have got to believe that there are a lot of teams who have noticed what many on this board have seen about TH. Although he is a gutsy guy, he cannot block at all. In fact, I think it has less to do with an inability to block as opposed to the willingness to do what it takes to pick up blitzing LBs. In any event, we at least have a third for someone who was never going to play for the Bills this year. Moreover, as others have pointed out, the reason why we were able to draft TH in the second round was because TD had the forsight to not take the OT that Tampa chose (whose name esapes me) and instead waited to pick up Nate Clements and received an extra second round pick for trading down.
Reuben Gant Posted July 17, 2005 Posted July 17, 2005 Anyone know what Jon Clayton will say about this one?
AJ1 Posted July 17, 2005 Posted July 17, 2005 Well, you knoe who you are. I will not name any names lest this be interpreted as me calling folks out and I respect some of the OTHER opinions some of these TSW posters have had which did not flat out state things like TD would get 0 value for Henry in a trade or that TD was hurting us by waiting. It just simply fortunately has not turned out that way and these posters were falt out wrong in their assessments of what value other league professionals assigned to TH and in their judgment that TD was being foolish in failing to pull the trigger on any offer (or in not cutting TH as he wished). This merely an opportunity for some posters to sing TDs praises and admit that they were flat out wrong in this football judgment. They can also take this opportunity if they choose to try to explain why we are all to stupid to understand the wisdom they were truly sharing or that why they are so much smarter than people at the Titans who at least are being paid to be such fools, but my guess is that any protests that they were really write will be mostly met with smug smiles. 383287[/snapback] It's a great move for TD. A 3rd for a no-brainer who the Bills managed to get a couple of good years out of. I rate the odds as 60 - 40 that Tennessee gets nothing, absolutely nothing, out of TH.
Bill from NYC Posted July 17, 2005 Posted July 17, 2005 Oh how times have changed. Before the draft the board was awash in speculation over whether the old fox would get a second or a first round pick for Travis, afterall, we picked him in the second round and since then he proved himself by making the pro bowl. When that didn't work out, there were some after the draft still clinging to the idea that we were going to get a top pick for him. "Just wait" they said, "you'll see, ol' TD will get us into the second round yet just as soon as somebody else's back gets hurt". Now we are asked to congratulate him for getting a third rounder for him? All TD did was get what Travis was worth, a lousy third rounder. Nothing more, nothing less. It was no major coup, no brilliant deal making. 383361[/snapback] Mickey, I remember that speculation well. The board did abound with predictions such as Henry for Gallery, Henry for Jason Taylor, etc. One poster in this thread stated that a 1st round pick wasn't enough" for Henry. That said, I for one think that TD is a smart, tough SOB. A third which will probably be in the early part of the round is a literal steal for TH. TD, I salute your expertise.
Mickey Posted July 17, 2005 Posted July 17, 2005 I think you overclaim why folks think did a good job here. I think everyone knows he did not pull off a miracle here (it's just football afterall so nothing galactic here at all). However, what TD did do was: 1. Took a different path than the foolishness and non-football assessment of some fans that said loudly and repeatedly that TH had no value because he was a bad player, that the failure to get a trade for him before the draft proved this. Wrong because we got a 1st day draft pick for him. 2. Resisted the more serious flawed non-football thinking of those like John Clauton and Pro Football Weekly who argued that the Bills were going to get screwed and get nothing for not taking the 5th TN originally offered for TH. 3. Easily ignored the non-footbsll thinking of those who said that Henry was a cancer who should be cut (I think these folks were actually TH relatives because it would have been ato TH's advantage if TD had foolishly done this. It is true that this deal is not perfect for us in that it would have been better for us to get a player who would give us a benefit this yeae rather than merely getting a first day draft pick next year. Hey, you can't have everything. One can easily claim that TD did not pull off a miracle here, but to claim because he did not that he did nothing ignores reality. Besides even looking at the football specifics here your claim that we got less back then we spent to get TH is actually only a partial view. First, in addition to the spent a 2nd and got a 3rd comparison one should not ignore that we also got 2 years of good production and 3 years of entertainment out of TH for the draft pick. Quite frankly this about as much as a team can reasonably expect out of any draft pick because uually after 4 years the pick can leave witn no compensation as an FA. Bills fans have actually been spoiled by TD because there is now an expectation after his nice maneuver with Peerless that we should covert each FA who leaves into a 1st or some other benefit. This is not normally the case at all. What did Cincy get for Spikes? What did we trade away to get Spikes? Nada and nothing. Because TH is a bad financial manager rather than paying through the nose for him after four years or having him walk as was his right with us getting nothing we got something (a 3rd) for nothing because TD was happy to give him half a million in exchange for a year of freedom. When you add in to that Henry was actually acquired not using our regular draft resource but because TD actually was able to trade down with our 1st in 2001 and pick up an extra second choice and still get the first CB (Clements) taken in the draft (again something for nothin) it is arguable that we did not get less than we spent to get Henry. 383515[/snapback] Anyone who thought we would get zero for TH is an idiot and so is anyone who thought we should cut him and so is anyone who thought we would get a second round pick for him. I was never held any of those opinions. That TD didn't listen to them is fairly reassuring because if he is listening to what people post here, we are in deeper trouble than I thought. If you want to praise him for not listening to idiots, go ahead. I wonder if that is the top bullet point on his resume "Ability to ignore morons". I stick by the point I have been making over and over since the end of last year. TH is an average back who isn't worth all that much. This trade verifies exactly what I always thought the guy was worth. All TD did was wait hoping to get better than the 4th rounder he was offered at the draft. As you acknowledge, nothing brilliant here. This isn't a case of discussing whether TD is a joke or the best non-playoff GM in the league. It is simply an average trade for an average player. As for the long history of TH, how we got him and the end result, it is six of one half dozen of the other. It wasn't a "free pick", that pick was an opportunity and if you blow an opportunity like that, it costs your team plenty. You don't get many opportunities to trade down, pick up an extra pick and still get the guy you wanted. Just because you got the pick that way doesn't mean it was so "free" you can afford to fritter it away. I thought it was a bad pick given our offensive line needs and the running backs we had on the roster at that point. No, it wasn't a terrible pick, it wasn't the biggest mistake in Bills history, I just thought we could have done better need wise, thats all. As it turned out, Travis was so good that we were motivated to take a chance with a first round pick on a guy with an exploded knee. The end result is pretty fair, WM is working out just fine and we got a 3rd back for TH which is only one round less than we used to get him plus we had a decent starter for a couple years. All in all it just was no big deal. My main beef is not with the various takes on TD and his performance here, it with all those who were going on and on about all the first rounders we were going to get for TH. TD never promised that.
Fake-Fat Sunny Posted July 17, 2005 Author Posted July 17, 2005 Anyone who thought we would get zero for TH is an idiot and so is anyone who thought we should cut him and so is anyone who thought we would get a second round pick for him. I was never held any of those opinions. That TD didn't listen to them is fairly reassuring because if he is listening to what people post here, we are in deeper trouble than I thought. If you want to praise him for not listening to idiots, go ahead. I wonder if that is the top bullet point on his resume "Ability to ignore morons". I stick by the point I have been making over and over since the end of last year. TH is an average back who isn't worth all that much. This trade verifies exactly what I always thought the guy was worth. All TD did was wait hoping to get better than the 4th rounder he was offered at the draft. As you acknowledge, nothing brilliant here. This isn't a case of discussing whether TD is a joke or the best non-playoff GM in the league. It is simply an average trade for an average player. As for the long history of TH, how we got him and the end result, it is six of one half dozen of the other. It wasn't a "free pick", that pick was an opportunity and if you blow an opportunity like that, it costs your team plenty. You don't get many opportunities to trade down, pick up an extra pick and still get the guy you wanted. Just because you got the pick that way doesn't mean it was so "free" you can afford to fritter it away. I thought it was a bad pick given our offensive line needs and the running backs we had on the roster at that point. No, it wasn't a terrible pick, it wasn't the biggest mistake in Bills history, I just thought we could have done better need wise, thats all. As it turned out, Travis was so good that we were motivated to take a chance with a first round pick on a guy with an exploded knee. The end result is pretty fair, WM is working out just fine and we got a 3rd back for TH which is only one round less than we used to get him plus we had a decent starter for a couple years. All in all it just was no big deal. My main beef is not with the various takes on TD and his performance here, it with all those who were going on and on about all the first rounders we were going to get for TH. TD never promised that. 383724[/snapback] What would you have done instead that is better than this ho hum performance?
Recommended Posts