"Compassionate Conservatives" Strike Again

[blzrul]

WOW.  Everytime I think you have come up with the most ridiculous post, you trump yourself.

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So let's hear your theory, Einstein.

[Live&DieBillsFootball]

think what you want....the fact is,.....i personally don't hate anyone who is Catholic.  But I do hate what the Catholic church teaches.  the same way i don't hate JW's or Mormons, but I hate what I believe to be their false doctrine.

 

if that makes me narrow minded because i think my faith is the only one that is right....sobeit.

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I'm not trying to be a smart ass, just someone trying to understand where you are coming from. Hate seems like such a strong word coming from someone who says that he is a Christian. What do you hate about what the Catholic church teaches? I didn't know that there was much in their teaching that would foster hatred among other Christians.

[Alaska Darin]

I'm not trying to be a smart ass, just someone trying to understand where you are coming from.  Hate seems like such a strong word coming from someone who says that he is a Christian.  What do you hate about what the Catholic church teaches?  I didn't know that there was much in their teaching that would foster hatred among other Christians.

386481[/snapback]

Just because they teach it doesn't mean people can learn it.

[Ghost of BiB]

I'm not trying to be a smart ass, just someone trying to understand where you are coming from.  Hate seems like such a strong word coming from someone who says that he is a Christian.  What do you hate about what the Catholic church teaches?  I didn't know that there was much in their teaching that would foster hatred among other Christians.

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And Islam is a peaceful religion.

 

I've been an RC all my life. I can't think of too many religions overall that are more accepting of what others believe or even feel than the Catholic church - to the point of tremendous physical courage. Many more Catholic missionaries have probably died trying to provide protections for those of other faiths than any other religion. They also don't care if you come to mass in cut-offs and a T-shirt, as long as you come. Try that in some Protestant churches? You'd be talked about for the next month. I don't really give a damn if you believe in talking rocks promising the spaceship to take you to Hubbard. I do find it disquieting that a faith based soley upon a book re-written to fit the personal views of a certain King James gives premise to hate another belief that had been around for at least 1,500 years prior.

[Live&DieBillsFootball]

And Islam is a peaceful religion.

 

I've been an RC all my life. I can't think of too many religions overall that are more accepting of what others believe or even feel than the Catholic church - to the point of tremendous physical courage. Many more Catholic missionaries have probably died trying to provide protections for those of other faiths than any other religion. They also don't care if you come to mass in cut-offs and a T-shirt, as long as you come. Try that in some Protestant churches? You'd be talked about for the next month. I don't really give a damn if you believe in talking rocks promising the spaceship to take you to Hubbard. I do find it disquieting that a faith based soley upon a book re-written to fit the personal views of a certain King James gives premise to hate another belief that had been around for at least 1,500 years prior.

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I agree with you as I am an RC also. I guess I live a sheltered life because I wasn't previously aware that some Christian religions are so anti-Catholic. I wish that I knew who they were so that I could hate them back.

[IBTG81]

Everyone should wise up and become an Atheist like me!

 

Seriously, what good does organized religion do? It just causes conflict (jews v. muslims, christians v. muslims, catholics v. protestants, christian fundamentalists v. everyone).

[Ghost of BiB]

Everyone should wise up and become an Atheist like me! 

 

Seriously, what good does organized religion do? It just causes conflict (jews v. muslims, christians v. muslims, catholics v. protestants, christian fundamentalists v. everyone).

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Population control?

[Mickey]

I agree with you as I am an RC also.  I guess I live a sheltered life because I wasn't previously aware that some Christian religions are so anti-Catholic.  I wish that I knew who they were so that I could hate them back. 

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My parents live in Florida part of the year, long enough to vote there. They are both catholics and lifelong conservatives who once in a great while vote democratic. This past presidential election they voted for Kerry. On her way into the polling place my mother saw a bunch of pro-bush demonstrators and one of them had some sort of sign that indicated that God was for Bush. My mother talked to the woman with the sign for a bit and when my mother told her she was voting for Kerry, not because she thought God was for Kerry but because God wanted her to make up her own mind the woman said, "Oh, you must be catholic" with the contempt dripping from her lips so thick she needed a drool cup.

 

Nice.

[Mickey]

Pretty well covers that one.

 

That's sort of illegal, isn't it?

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Only if the group is using public money. The Constitution is weird in that it mostly only prohibits certain invasions by the government, ie "state action". A University accepting government grants can't refuse to hire a catholic or gve preference to hiring evangelicals as it would violate the Establishment Clause. Because they are getting public cash, their actions are "state actions". Many conservatives would see that rule obliterated and already have succeeded to some extent when it comes to religion. A church can accept federal money and act unconstitutionally at the same time. Conservatives have carved out an exception for them based on the idea that taking fed money doesn't make their actions "state actions". Therefore, they can discriminate where any other entity accepting public funds would not be permitted to do so. The rule used to have been that you couldn't use public money to benefit any religion but conservatives have fairly successfully moved that line to where public money can benefit a religion as long as it is done without partiality to any one religion. My own view is that you can't do that without benefitting one over the other no matter how fair you try to be.

 

Lets say you distribute "X" amount of cash to churches and you divide it up evenly based on the number of churches in each faith. The faith with the most churches gets the most money and is therefore benefits more than the others.

 

If you divide it up by faith, so much to the catholics, so much for the christians, etc. then smaller religions would get a lot more money per individual member of that faith so they would disproportionately benefit. I

 

f you do it by the number of individual adherents to a given faith, how do you count them? Would a catholic who only goes to church on Christmas Eve count? How about a self described Christian whose behaviour is blatantly anti-christian such as a skin head, would he count for them?

 

It doesn't take too much imagination to see how the minute you say it is okay to give tax payer dollars to churches, sort of an involuntary tithe, it is invevitable that favoritism will creep in, it always does. We have a ton of rules to prevent that kind of thing from effecting the award of government contracts or hiring, etc, etc, etc. Do they work? If we can't get a mailman hired without favoritism, how are we going to prevent it when we are passing out cash to churches?

[Mickey]

think what you want....the fact is,.....i personally don't hate anyone who is Catholic.  But I do hate what the Catholic church teaches.  the same way i don't hate JW's or Mormons, but I hate what I believe to be their false doctrine.

 

if that makes me narrow minded because i think my faith is the only one that is right....sobeit.

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You can hate catholics or their church or what they teach or all three. Fine with me. I just don't think you should get public money, my money, to support your hate for me, my church or my beliefs.

[Live&DieBillsFootball]

Only if the group is using public money.  The Constitution is weird in that it mostly only prohibits certain invasions by the government, ie "state action".  A University accepting government grants can't refuse to hire a catholic or gve preference to hiring evangelicals as it would violate the Establishment Clause.  Because they are getting public cash, their actions are "state actions".  Many conservatives would see that rule obliterated and already have succeeded to some extent when it comes to religion.  A church can accept federal money and act unconstitutionally at the same time.  Conservatives have carved out an exception for them based on the idea that taking fed money doesn't make their actions "state actions".  Therefore, they can discriminate where any other entity accepting public funds would not be permitted to do so.  The rule used to have been that you couldn't use public money to benefit any religion but conservatives have fairly successfully moved that line to where public money can benefit a religion as long as it is done without partiality to any one religion.  My own view is that you can't do that without benefitting one over the other no matter how fair you try to be.

 

Lets say you distribute "X" amount of cash to churches and you divide it up evenly based on the number of churches in each faith.  The faith with the most churches gets the most money and is therefore benefits more than the others. 

 

If you divide it up by faith, so much to the catholics, so much for the christians, etc. then smaller religions would get a lot more money per individual member of that faith so they would disproportionately benefit.  I

 

f you do it by the number of individual adherents to a given faith, how do you count them? Would a catholic who only goes to church on Christmas Eve count?  How about a self described Christian whose behaviour is blatantly anti-christian such as a skin head, would he count for them? 

 

It doesn't take too much imagination to see how the minute you say it is okay to give tax payer dollars to churches, sort of an involuntary tithe, it is invevitable that favoritism will creep in, it always does.  We have a ton of rules to prevent that kind of thing from effecting the award of government contracts or hiring, etc, etc, etc.  Do they work?  If we can't get a mailman hired without favoritism, how are we going to prevent it when we are passing out cash to churches?

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That's why I see a problem with the so called "Faith-Based Initiatives". This is nothing more than an attempt to funnel tax money to religious groups in order to influence votes. A prime tool used by the Republican party to 'buy" the black vote in the last election.

[Reuben Gant]

Everyone should wise up and become an Atheist like me! 

 

Seriously, what good does organized religion do?

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Well my parish seems to do a lot of good. Every mass along with the collection people bring in food for the poor, for local food pantries.. We have a group that visits sick and shut-ins. We sponser a very poor parish in Central America. There is another group that picks a house every spring to help re-build it, kind of like Habitat for Humanity but on a smaller scale. There is daycare for kids. A school to educate kids. There are also literacy volunteers. There is a thrift store for poor people so that they can buy nice clothes at a reasonable price with dignity. The confirmation program takes kids to work at places like Viva la Casa in Buffalo, or St. Francis Inn in Philidelphia so that they are active doing works of mercy. I play poker with guys I met at the Parish and we share fellowship and like to drink beer together.

 

And as far as I know, nobody in the Parish has killed anybody recently.

[Mickey]

That's why I see a problem with the so called "Faith-Based Initiatives".  This is nothing more than an attempt to funnel tax money to religious groups in order to influence votes.  A prime tool used by the Republican party to 'buy" the black vote in the last election.

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Handing out money to voters. The surest way to electoral victory. A tried and true strategy. There is a theory that says that no matter how people may try to disguise it beneath veils of altruism, their primary motivation is always self interest. On this principle, the parties are indistinguishable.

[IowaBill]

Well my parish seems to do a lot of good. Every mass along with the collection people bring in food for the poor, for local food pantries.. We have a group that visits sick and shut-ins. We sponser a very poor parish in Central America. There is another group that picks a house every spring to help re-build it, kind of like Habitat for Humanity but on a smaller scale. There is daycare for kids. A school to educate kids. There are also literacy volunteers. There is a thrift store for poor people so that they can buy nice clothes at a reasonable price with dignity. The confirmation program takes kids to work at places like Viva la Casa in Buffalo, or St. Francis Inn in Philidelphia so that they are active doing works of mercy. I play poker with guys I met at the Parish and we share fellowship and like to drink beer together.

 

And as far as I know, nobody in the Parish has killed anybody recently.

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I am not real sure that all of what you stated was due entirely to organized religion. Fraternal organizations, like the Elks, The Moose, etc all do such things, as do many civic clubs. Granted, many fraternal organizations and civic clubs don't do such good deeds either. Neither do a lot of parishes. Our instinct to band together and then use collective energies and skills to work toward common causes (both good an bad) is something that doesn't need a set of man made religions. Worship if want, believe if you will, but good deeds by groups have been done long before the establishment of Christianity, Islam, Judiasm, other monotheistic faiths.

[Reuben Gant]

I am not real sure that all of what you stated was due entirely to organized religion. 

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But how can you divorce organized religion from the things we do? Whatever the motivation, my point is that this is just what I see on the local level. I just hear the "organized religion is bad" mantra all the time. But those are some of the things we do as a faith community. It certainly is religion, and it is certainly organized. We worship together too.

[IowaBill]

But how can you divorce organized religion from the things we do? Whatever the motivation, my point is that this is just what I see on the local level. I just hear the "organized religion is bad" mantra all the time. But those are some of the things we do as a faith community. It certainly is religion, and it is certainly organized. We worship together too.

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It was not my intention to seperate religion from what you and your fellow worshipers do, although I see where that could have been seen as my intention. My point is that all the good things you mention, can and do happen without organized religion. Further all the "good" that happens with faith based charities happens without the faith based charities also. In fact, having worked with faith based charities and with "secular" charities, I would say that neither approach is superior, more efficient, more caring, or what have you. I have worked with faith based charities that woudl tell me they are better because their motives are biblically driven, they are "called" to do this work, hence they are better, blah, blah, blah. It is just not so. In fact, you are more likely, at least in my experience, to find charlatans and inefficiency hiding behind the "cloak" of an organization being faith based, and feeling that they are beyond judgement, or accountability, because their motives are "pure". Not so.

 

Didn't mean to ramble, I am just saying charitable acts and other good things do NOT require the recognition of an organized religion to occur, and when they are driven by an organized religion, they are no better, or worse, than those that are secular in nature.

[Reuben Gant]

Didn't mean to ramble, I am just saying charitable acts and other good things do NOT require the recognition of an organized religion to occur, and when they are driven by an organized religion, they are no better, or worse, than those that are secular in nature.

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No disputing that. I'm a theist, most of my friends are not. Sometimes the good things they do put me to shame.

[rockpile]

I agree with you as I am an RC also.  I guess I live a sheltered life because I wasn't previously aware that some Christian religions are so anti-Catholic.  I wish that I knew who they were so that I could hate them back. 

386608[/snapback]

Walk into a fundamentalist church, make the sign of the cross, genuflect before you sit down, and ask the person next to you were the confessional is. That might be a good way start.

[CBusBillsFan]

I was always taught in CCD that we (Catholics) don't know who is going to heaven and who is going to hell. We think we have a pretty good idea, but it isn't our place to say who is and who isn't, that right is reserved solely for God. When I was in high school there was a group of about 15 fundamentalists that started a "religion discussion" group where people of all faiths were invited to share about their religion. Well, I went to talk about Catholicism and found out the group was set up to convert as many people as they could, so they could be "saved." All this kind of stuff really bugs me, we need to stop worrying about sending people to heaven and hell, and start caring about the people around us right now.