With Buffalo Seemingly Desperate for a LT

[San-O]

I am not a Tom Donahoe fan, if fact I don't like him. (as a GM, don't know the man)

 

This probably started with some bizzare draft day moves and scolding fans for running GW out of town, but let's move on.

 

 

Mike Williams was drafted # 4 overall to be starting left tackle, correct?

 

Now, we really NEED a left tackle, and we don't have one.

 

Williams is making $9-10 mill. a year at right tackle, and appears to be staying

there.

 

What does this mean about this draft pick and Mike Williams in general?

 

 

I'd say we got hosed, and now the Bills are going to be exposed by this, as I

think a good LT may be the only thing really keeping Buffalo from a wild-card

spot.

 

 

[Fezmid]

Mike Williams was drafted # 4 overall to be starting left tackle, correct?

 

Not correct; some fans assumed he'd switch to LT, but I don't think that the Bills ever said anything.

 

And assume for a minute that MW did switch over to LT; then we'd have a huge hole to fill at RT.

 

CW

[San-O]

Not correct; some fans assumed he'd switch to LT, but I don't think that the Bills ever said anything.

 

And assume for a minute that MW did switch over to LT; then we'd have a huge hole to fill at RT.

 

CW

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I hear you, just never really bought into the concept that you spend your

# 4 overall pick on a right tackle. If so, that is even more bizarre.

 

As far as having a hole, your are suggesting better to have a hole at LT than RT?

[San-O]

Another angle I'm thinking of now:

 

If you DON'T move Williams to LT, does this mean your started $1.25 mill./year

LT is a better lineman than your $9-$10 mill./year right tackle?

 

I think it absolutely does.

[EndZoneCrew]

Mike Williams 2005=Hawaii bound at RT

[eball]

first of all, i disagree with your premise. the bills are not "desperate" for a LT. if they were, there were a number of "names" out there (shelton, etc.) that they could have easily acquired.

 

i'll trust that one of the best OL coaches around believes that he can work w/ mike gandy and the players on the roster.

 

secondly, MW was never drafted to be a LT. that was all a bunch of media and fan speculation -- never once confirmed by a member of the bills' front office. is MW expensive? hell yes. has he taken a little longer than we hoped to develop? again, yes. but he is now entering the prime of his career and should be a fixture at the position for years. i don't have a problem w/ him.

[San-O]

first of all, i disagree with your premise.  the bills are not "desperate" for a LT.  if they were, there were a number of "names" out there (shelton, etc.) that they could have easily acquired.

 

i'll trust that one of the best OL coaches around believes that he can work w/ mike gandy and the players on the roster.

 

secondly, MW was never drafted to be a LT.  that was all a bunch of media and fan speculation -- never once confirmed by a member of the bills' front office.  is MW expensive?  hell yes.  has he taken a little longer than we hoped to develop?  again, yes.  but he is now entering the prime of his career and should be a fixture at the position for years.  i don't have a problem w/ him.

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So Gandy is the answer? Interesting.

 

 

Then that's another reason I don't like Donahoe. You are coming off a 3-13 season, and you spend your # 4 overall on a right tackle?

 

That's like saying, we can have anybody in the entire NFL draft with the

exception of the first three picks, and we think a RT is:

 

a) going to help us more than anybody else available.

 

b) this right tackle is the best play available.

 

Very wrong on both accounts, IMO.

 

I don't think you take a chance on a guy that high when your team is horrible.

And no, I don't believe there was no other team in the NFL past the first four

would have traded up or we could have traded down with.

 

The other things, they didn't say anything about drafting him to play LT?

 

I wonder why that is?

[jahnyc]

I agree that we are (i) desperate at LT and (ii) overpaying Mike Williams significantly. No RT, even a very good one (which he may finally become this year), is worth more than five million a year. This is a serious drain on our cap. I am not sure what the intention was when he was drafted, but I think we would complain about the compensation for any player that would have been drafted at number four overall that year.

 

As for the situation at LT, I am surprised that we are going into the season potentially with Gandy or Teague at LT. At best, one of them will be a stop-gap, average LT. I worry about that position with a second year qb with no starting experience. It seems to be a recipe for disaster.

[San-O]

I agree that we are (i) desperate at LT and (ii) overpaying Mike Williams significantly.  No RT, even a very good one (which he may finally become this year), is worth more than five million a year.  This is a serious drain on our cap.  I am not sure what the intention was when he was drafted, but I think we would complain about the compensation for any player that would have been drafted at number four overall that year.

 

As for the situation at LT, I am surprised that we are going into the season potentially with Gandy or Teague at LT.  At best, one of them will be a stop-gap, average LT.  I worry about that position with a second year qb with no starting experience.  It seems to be a recipe for disaster.

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I agree, a disaster waiting to happen.

 

As far as the intention when WM was drafted, some have said Bills mgnt. has never stated he was drafted to be a LT, and it was fan and media speculation.

 

Yes, correct, and the reason why people have thought this: there is no tackle drafted in the top 10 over the last eight years that is playing right tackle. None.

 

Except Mike Williams for the Buffalo Bills.

 

I stopped examining each years top 10 selections at 1998.

 

 

=====================================

 

2004

 

1 San Diego Eli Manning QB Mississippi

2 Oakland Robert Gallery T Iowa Left Tackle

3 Arizona Larry Fitzgerald WR Pittsburgh

4 N.Y. Giants Philip Rivers QB North Carolina State

5 Washington Sean Taylor FS Miami

6 Cleveland Kellen Winslow TE Miami

7 Detroit Roy Williams WR Texas

8 Atlanta DeAngelo Hall CB Virginia Tech

9 Jacksonville Reggie Williams WR Washington

10 Houston Dunta Robinson CB South Carolina

 

 

2003

 

1 Cincinnati Carson Palmer QB Southern California

2 Detroit Charles Rogers WR Michigan State

3 Houston Andre Johnson WR Miami

4 N.Y. Jets Dewayne Robertson DT Kentucky

5 Dallas Terence Newman CB Kansas State

6 New Orleans Johnathan Sullivan DT Georgia

7 Jacksonville Byron Leftwich QB Marshall

8 Carolina Jordan Gross T Utah Left Tackle

9 Minnesota Kevin Williams DT Oklahoma State

10 Baltimore Terrell Suggs OLB Arizona State

 

 

2002

1 Houston David Carr QB Fresno State

2 Carolina Julius Peppers DE North Carolina

3 Detroit Joey Harrington QB Oregon

4 Buffalo Mike Williams T Texas Right Tackle (doh!)

5 San Diego Quentin Jammer CB Texas

6 Kansas City Ryan Sims DT North Carolina

7 Minnesota Bryant McKinnie T Miami Left Tackle

8 Dallas Roy Williams FS Oklahoma

9 Jacksonville John Henderson DT Tennessee

10 Cincinnati Levi Jones T Arizona State Left Tackle

 

 

2001

1 Atlanta Michael Vick QB Virginia Tech

2 Arizona Leonard Davis T Texas Left Tackle

3 Cleveland Gerard Warren DT Florida

4 Cincinnati Justin Smith DE Missouri

5 San Diego LaDainian Tomlinson RB Texas Christian

6 New England Richard Seymour DE Georgia

7 San Francisco Andre Carter DE California

8 Chicago David Terrell WR Michigan

9 Seattle Koren Robinson WR North Carolina State

10 Green Bay Jamal Reynolds DE Florida State

 

 

2000

1 Cleveland Courtney Brown DE Penn State

2 Washington LaVar Arrington OLB Penn State

3 Washington Chris Samuels T Alabama Left Tackle

4 Cincinnati Peter Warrick WR Florida State

5 Baltimore Jamal Lewis RB Tennessee

6 Philadelphia Corey Simon DT Florida State

7 Arizona Thomas Jones RB Virginia

8 Pittsburgh Plaxico Burress WR Michigan State

9 Chicago Brian Urlacher MLB New Mexico

10 Baltimore Travis Taylor WR Florida

 

 

1999 nada

1 Cleveland Tim Couch QB Kentucky

2 Philadelphia Donovan McNabb QB Syracuse

3 Cincinnati Akili Smith QB Oregon

4 Indianapolis Edgerrin James RB Miami

5 New Orleans Ricky Williams RB Texas

6 St. Louis Torry Holt WR North Carolina State

7 Washington Champ Bailey CB Georgia

8 Arizona David Boston WR Ohio State

9 Detroit Chris Claiborne OLB Southern California

10 Baltimore Chris McAlister CB Arizona

 

 

1998

1 Indianapolis Peyton Manning QB Tennessee

2 San Diego Ryan Leaf QB Washington State

3 Arizona Andre Wadsworth DE Florida State

4 Oakland Charles Woodson CB Michigan

5 Chicago Curtis Enis RB Penn State

6 St. Louis Grant Wistrom DE Nebraska

7 New Orleans Kyle Turley T San Diego State Left Tackle/Now Guard

8 Dallas Greg Ellis DE North Carolina

9 Jacksonville Fred Taylor RB Florida

10 Baltimore Duane Starks CB Miami

 

 

1997

1 St. Louis Orlando Pace T Ohio State Left Tackle

2 Oakland Darrell Russell DT Southern California

3 Seattle Shawn Springs CB Ohio State

4 Baltimore Peter Boulware OLB Florida State

5 Detroit Bryant Westbrook CB Texas

6 Seattle Walter Jones T Florida State Left Tackle

7 N.Y. Giants Ike Hilliard WR Florida

8 N.Y. Jets James Farrior ILB Virginia

9 Arizona Tommy Knight CB Iowa

10 New Orleans Chris Naeole G Colorado

 

 

========================================

[San-O]

first of all, i disagree with your premise.  the bills are not "desperate" for a LT.  if they were, there were a number of "names" out there (shelton, etc.) that they could have easily acquired.

 

i'll trust that one of the best OL coaches around believes that he can work w/ mike gandy and the players on the roster.

 

secondly, MW was never drafted to be a LT.  that was all a bunch of media and fan speculation -- never once confirmed by a member of the bills' front office.  is MW expensive?  hell yes.  has he taken a little longer than we hoped to develop?  again, yes.  but he is now entering the prime of his career and should be a fixture at the position for years.  i don't have a problem w/ him.

374122[/snapback]

 

You don't have a problem with a $ 9,000,000+ /year right tackle taking up

11% of the 2005 cap?

 

I do.

[Fake-Fat Sunny]

You don't have a problem with a $ 9,000,000+ /year right tackle taking up

11% of the 2005 cap?

 

I do.

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I think the Bills thought and hoped that MW would earn the LT slot by 2005 when Jennings either cut the mustard and gave the Bills two options at LT or did not (he was at least adequate with the potenyial to be a solid LT but he would not have been worth even the standard LT cap hit not to mention the extraordinary amount he raked in from SF) and they moved MW to LT after JJ left. I think the hefty contract which gave MW his huge cap hit can only be dealt with if you are not paying another tackle a huge salary. As the market certainly calls for a significant cap hit for the LT position, it certainly seems likely the Bills had this in mind for MW.

 

However, before folks get all upset about how in the heck we can survive paying an RT an LT salary. The obvious answer is that one can do this if you have a relatively cheap LT to balance for MW remaining in the RT position.

 

As it stands, the Bills had or have several options which are credible for domg this if the think they can make it work with that players.

 

A. Shelton was a credible thought as out LT at an affordable level but apparently JMac and the braintrust did not feel that his play his play with his ankle injury would be good enough.

B. Gandy is also a credible thought as he has manned the position before and JMac sees something in his game he believes he can turn into a winner at LT. I doubt it but it is certainly possible and I understand the concept.

C. Verba is still on the market and their are likely other candidates out there who would need to be revived or raised up with coaching. Gamdy seems more likely than these choices and I have my doubts about him.

D. Peters has still been consistenly talked about as a phenomenal athlete but I really doubt that he is in a position we should entrust JPs blindside to him but I guess it is possible.

E. I think Teague can play the LT role if need be because I think he was adequate though not good enough to pay the big bucks to for Denver, and I think that after 3 years of C work with the Bills he actually is a better player today and should be able to at least be credible at LT if needed. Tucker's play at C last year means there is a back-op option for Teague though new health issues have been raised for him and also the drafting of Preston and descriptions of him also make him a credible option to try if necessary.

 

Overall, the LT situation is not where I want it to be. However, since I'm not in charge and do not have to make this work all I can to is wait, watch and judge as a fan. My judgement is that if you told me that Glenn Parker is your starting LT and Dusty Ziegler is your starting C in 2002 (or whatever year it was) and that they were going to lead an OL to the SB, I would have asked you what you were smoking.

 

However, under JMac's guidance and tutelage they did. I think the Bills have (and had but passed on them because they had better options) a number of ways to make this work at LT in terms of production and also fitting their salary cap. I do not see how JMac is going to make it work with Gandy, but given his track record of success (a couple of SB berths and good blocking with Cincy, great work and an SB berth with NYG and great improvement over the not-rerady-for -primetime work of Vinky and Ruel) I think we can and should give him some latitude to make this work even with pedestrian talent.

 

As far as paying MW too much for an RT, I could not care less IF JMac and YC make it work because we have paid for the replaceable adequate work of Jennings and will pay for Gandy a small amount which in conjunction with the good but not overwhelming amounts taken down by Villarial, Anderson and Teague seems pretty doable in terms of the OL budget.

 

I do not think the MW contract is untoward as it was simply the slotted budget amound for a #4 pick and we are compensating for it finacially by JMac judging he can make this work with Gandy taking a balancing lower cap amount. He does have to make this work, but he has led OLs good enough to make the SB before with limited talent players so it is certainly more than possible for him to do it again. It has seemed the case that the MW cap hit has not stopped the Bills from resigning anyone they wanted to get as both parties were quite willing to restructure if necessary.

 

MW also may well become the LT we want next year though his meltdown last year delayed his progress for a year. However, we see, to be dealing with that problem and have a couple of back-up plans in place in Gabdy cannot cut the mustard.

[eball]

You don't have a problem with a $ 9,000,000+ /year right tackle taking up

11% of the 2005 cap?

 

I do.

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i haven't read a lot of your posts and i don't know your agenda, but if you were going to complain about MW's salary, the time to do it was before now. he's finally reached the point where he should be dominant at his position.

 

you're a day late and a $ short.

 

i'm willing to play "wait and see" with respect to what happens at LT. unlike in 2001-3, we have a legitimate OL coach who actually knows what he's doinig.

[San-O]

i haven't read a lot of your posts and i don't know your agenda, but if you were going to complain about MW's salary, the time to do it was before now.  he's finally reached the point where he should be dominant at his position.

 

you're a day late and a $ short.

 

i'm willing to play "wait and see" with respect to what happens at LT.  unlike in 2001-3, we have a legitimate OL coach who actually knows what he's doinig.

374170[/snapback]

 

I'm really complaining about not being able to move MW to left tackle,

which is the position he is being paid for.

 

Didn't need to do this before this year as we had Jonas Jennings.

 

He is gone now.

[/dev/null]

However, under JMac's guidance and tutelage they did

374164[/snapback]

 

i've said it before and i'll say it again. McNally coaching our OLine is like putting General Patton in charge of the French Army*

 

*translation for the HotPockets® crowd who may not know who General Patton is: its like putting that guy from Hells Kitchen in charge of a McDonalds

[eball]

I'm really complaining about not being able to move MW to left tackle,

which is the position he is being paid for.

 

Didn't need to do this before this year as we had Jonas Jennings.

 

He is gone now.

374171[/snapback]

i "get it" that you believe the big $ should be paid to the LT. i don't necessarily disagree. perhaps MW's off-field issues prevented him from developing quickly enough to make a switch feasible (if that is what TD intended). i don't know. at this point, however, it's clear that the bills don't intend to make the switch. i don't believe that's an indictment of donahoe, however. with a mobile QB and the right scheme, the importance of having a "stud" LT is minimized. if losman is doing a lot of rolling to his right, one could argue that the RT takes on more importance.

 

anyway, my point is that i don't think there is a "crisis" at the tackle position, and we need to let things develop. there's more than one way to look at the situation.

[The Jokeman]

I agree, a disaster waiting to happen.

 

As far as the intention when WM was drafted, some have said Bills mgnt. has never stated he was drafted to be a LT, and it was fan and media speculation.

 

Yes, correct, and the reason why people have thought this: there is no tackle drafted in the top 10 over the last eight years that is playing right tackle.  None.

I hate to break it to you but Jordan Gross of the Panthers is playing RT as per Ourlads.com. Was the pick of Williams a mistake? There have been some good points both pro/con with the pick of Williams and while I tend to side with the con I wouldn't call BIG Mike a complete disaster. Infact I was one calling for us to take McKinnie at the time of the draft in looking at his career numbers he hasn't become the premier LT, I felt we needed/still lack. In retrospect and hindsight being 20/20 the best pick we could of made at #4 was take John Henderson and used the free agent money we used on Sam Adams on a RT like Wayne Gandy or Victory Riley and shifted Jennings from RT to LT Of course Jennings still would have become a LT and possibly still left as an UFA leaving us a hole at a position the team has had ever since Wolford left for the Colts and can be traced back to the previous regime whom I felt was far worse at assessing O-line talent.

[San-O]

I hate to break it to you but Jordan Gross of the Panthers is playing RT as per Ourlads.com. Was the pick of Williams a mistake? There have been some good points both pro/con with the pick of Williams and while I tend to side with the con I wouldn't call BIG Mike a complete disaster. Infact I was one calling for us to take McKinnie at the time of the draft in looking at his career numbers he hasn't become the premier LT, I felt we needed/still lack. In retrospect and hindsight being 20/20 the best pick we could of made at #4 was take John Henderson and used the free agent money we used on Sam Adams on a RT like Wayne Gandy and shifted Jennings from RT to LT. Of course Jennings still would have become a LT leaving us a hole at a position the team has had ever since Wolford left for the Colts and can be traced back to the previous regime whom I felt was far worse at assessing O-line talent.

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www.NFL.com and the Panthers depth chart has him at left tackle.

[Ramius]

gandy will do alright as a stop gap, but i think we get our future LT in next years draft, as its filled with offensive tackles...

[The Jokeman]

gandy will do alright as a stop gap, but i think we get our future LT in next years draft, as its filled with offensive tackles...

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I agree with you.

[The Jokeman]

www.NFL.com and the Panthers depth chart has him at left tackle.

374235[/snapback]

Here's my short take on MW, was the pick bad? Yes, but it could of been worse at least he's a starter and isn't Tony Mandarich ie out of the league.