Brandon Beane on WGR

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

One point kind of lost in all this is that as much as Beane has put the spotlight on himself, this entire offseason also puts a spotlight on McDermott. Everyone agrees his defense has been our biggest problem in the postseason, and this regime has planted their flag that it is talent more than coaching that has been holding them back. Beane's offer to Brady this offseason was a WR3 and a blocking TE. His offer to McDermott was a CB1, three new EDGEs, three new DTs, and more secondary depth than we can even keep on the roster.

 

So despite my frustration with the continued underinvestment in WR, I'm at least glad that everyone is in agreement that the defense now has the necessary talent to perform at an above average level in the postseason. You can't give all of these resources to a defensive head coach and then come back later making excuses that the talent wasn't good enough. This has to be the year KC's offense doesn't walk all over us in January. I think a realistic standard should be keeping them below 24 points and they need to punt at least 4 times. Otherwise, what was the point of this offseason?

After a couple seasons, imo, it’s the scheme / coaching as much as it could be the talent, again Jmo. 

[Process]

Interesting that he brings up NE and how they won without elite WRs. Beane simply doesn't value WRs as much as other do when team building. It's nothing new or surprising, and something we just need to learn to accept. 

 

To be honest it's a fine strategy and one I've become more comfortable with....if the trade off is an elite defense that shows up in the playoffs. When you have a defense that falls apart when it matters and a lack of playmakers on offense, well the result is zero Superbowls. 

 

Hopefully all these additions on defense pays off. 

 

 

[blitzboy54]

3 hours ago, MJS said:

It's not about that. It's just that they needed to prioritize the defense this year. I'm sure they would love to have added a couple of really good receivers. But resources are limited. The Bills have virtually no cap space. They are completely tapped out and will need to restructure or cut/trade someone to get some cap space just for in-season roster management. You can't address everything. Next year, they will focus on the offense.

 

It kind of is about that. Their average draft position for WR is late 5th round. If you include the first you gave up for Diggs that jumps to like 4.9. So they do not take that position seriously. They will invest in rotational defensive linemen over and over again in the first 3 rounds but not WR. I realize they took Coleman, we all hope that works. It was not without controversy and he has none of the speed fans have been begging for multiple seasons. 

Couple that with how even in years of dominant defense they get worked in the playoffs and concern that we are spinning our wheels is real. 

[Gregg]

7 minutes ago, Process said:

Interesting that he brings up NE and how they won without elite WRs. Beane simply doesn't value WRs as much as other do when team building. It's nothing new or surprising, and something we just need to learn to accept. 

 

To be honest it's a fine strategy and one I've become more comfortable with....if the trade off is an elite defense that shows up in the playoffs. When you have a defense that falls apart when it matters and a lack of playmakers on offense, well the result is zero Superbowls. 

 

Hopefully all these additions on defense pays off. 

 

 

 

NE had Moss (very elite) Gronk (elite TE) and Welker and Edelman who were both very good. 

[BullBuchanan]

18 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

Define effective.  Because based on the objective evidence below, he's a journeyman RB who does well in certain situations and most certainly is not an every-down player.  If he were, he wouldn't be the 28th highest paid player on the team at less than 2M this season.  Key UFA's tend to make far more.  Nice try Hondo.   

  

 

He was responsible for 27 first downs on 59 touches. He was MASSIVELY important. There are games he outright won for us.

[LEBills]

9 minutes ago, Process said:

Interesting that he brings up NE and how they won without elite WRs. Beane simply doesn't value WRs as much as other do when team building. It's nothing new or surprising, and something we just need to learn to accept. 

 

To be honest it's a fine strategy and one I've become more comfortable with....if the trade off is an elite defense that shows up in the playoffs. When you have a defense that falls apart when it matters and a lack of playmakers on offense, well the result is zero Superbowls. 

 

Hopefully all these additions on defense pays off. 

 

 

I think the “we think the guys on the roster are really good” is the argument where even the most die hard person will disagree but can accept. But this does open Beane up to having egg on his face if that group falls short this year.

 

The New England point is silly tho. The first three were so long ago they could all legally drink now (aka a different era) and the 2010s championships all happened when Edelman and Gronk hit their prime and those two were really good. 
 

yuck had to throw up a bit after typing that.

[Process]

8 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

NE had Moss (very elite) Gronk (elite TE) and Welker and Edelman who were both very good. 

None of their Superbowl wins were with Moss to be fair.

[VW82]

I kind of get Beane’s reaction in the context of not spending significant draft capital to go after a WR1 type when our offense was so good last year and defense was not. We don’t have top end guys on the roster but we have decent veteran talent there and someone like Keon needs opportunities to grow into that guy (or prove he can’t). Our offense is built around our run game first whether fans like it or not. 
 

The part I don’t get is we only have four quality WRs. We’d have to really believe in Shavers who’s totally unproven as the fifth guy to think our depth is sufficient. Last year all it took was Samuel and Kincaid to get hurt and we were desperate. How is that not still a big threat? 

Edited 5 hours ago by VW82

[The Wiz]

8 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

NE had Moss (very elite) Gronk (elite TE) and Welker and Edelman who were both very good. 

Moss: Was already going to be a HOF when he got there and wasn't drafted by NE

Gronk: I'll give you

Welker: Brady made him good (and wasn't drafted by NE)

Edelman: didn't break out until his 5th season

 

So the options are sign a vet WR that is already a HOF/some guy that you think can have your QB elevate their game(kind of like most receivers have done with Allen) or draft a player and wait 3-5 years for them to be a very good player.

 

This draft didn't have very good WRs after the first 2 rounds (even after the 1st round they were probably borderline very good) so drafting one in the 3rd or 4th when you could get guys that will more likely contribute right away on defense makes more sense.

 

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, MasterStrategist said:

Palmer can get downfield, so can Keon for 50/50 throws - they're counting on both these guys.  Simple as that.  

 

Keon: 19.2 ypr, 15.2 adot

Palmer: 15.0 ypr, 15.2 adot

Cooper (just with Bills): 13.3 ypr, 12.6 adot

 

We have guys, people want to throw Keon under the bus and are discounting Palmer already for some reason.  Not to mention, Samuel never was fully utilized due to fighting thru injuries all season.

 

I don't want to throw Coleman under the bus. I was one of his biggest advocates in the pre-draft process last year. I was disappointed with his performance after returning from injury and I wish he had finished the season strong, but I'm still hopeful he can make a year two jump. Even while advocating for him I expected his rookie year to be bumpy and his skill set to take time to develop. But being honest with myself, nothing he did last year makes me feel confident he is the outside downfield WR that we are missing.

 

I watched enough of the Chargers last year to know Palmer is not a vertical WR. He is a decent separator and possession WR who can definitely play outside full time, but his vertical speed and ball tracking are not good enough to fulfill the role I'm talking about.

 

Cooper last year is actually a good example of what I'm talking about. In the regular season KC game he made two big downfield catches, and both of those drives ended in TDs. So we literally do not win that game without his contributions as a downfield WR. Right now I don't believe we have anyone on the roster that can make those plays. I don't think we have anyone that will even force teams to defend that area of the field. Coleman is our best hope but like I said there's no real reason to be confident he will.

 

Beane's response to this concern is to tell us to stop bitching about it. Okay. We'll find out pretty quickly this season if it's a legitimate concern, like we did last year before trading for Cooper. Hopefully I'm wrong about Palmer or Coleman takes a big step in his development.

[Doc Brown]

1 hour ago, Process said:

Interesting that he brings up NE and how they won without elite WRs. Beane simply doesn't value WRs as much as other do when team building. It's nothing new or surprising, and something we just need to learn to accept. 

 

To be honest it's a fine strategy and one I've become more comfortable with....if the trade off is an elite defense that shows up in the playoffs. When you have a defense that falls apart when it matters and a lack of playmakers on offense, well the result is zero Superbowls. 

 

Hopefully all these additions on defense pays off. 

 

 

I'm with him in that I hated this WR class after Golden and it was more logical to throw all the darts you could at D-line and CB.  This team offensively has philosophically changed from a 11 personnel spread formation high passing offense to a more run heavy pro style offense mixed in with spread concepts.  WR core is more crucial in the former.  I just find it odd how defensive he is about it when his top 30 visits had a lot of WR's and he even admitted after the draft he was surprised he didn't draft one.

[MasterStrategist]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Nobody was arguing about 3rd down defense. That was horrific last year. The point was about turnovers having high varience. Well under Sean McDermott the Bills defense bucks that trend.

Yeah I was stating 3rd down defense in my posts...you jumped in off my "turnovers are volatile" comment.

 

So yes, it was about all of the above...the person originally commenting to me said I didn't account for turnovers.  

 

Baseball analogy- someone who hits .230 and 35 Homers vs a .290 player who hits 20 Homers

 

My point originally, was that our 3rd down defense isn't getting off the field.  Yes we get turnovers, but more importantly to me is getting off the field sooner.

 

Sorry, you may have missed this convo

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, Process said:

Interesting that he brings up NE and how they won without elite WRs.

 

I find it weird that Beane and others say "don't forget about Kincaid" in the WR discussion, but then they point to the Pats dynasty use of WRs while intentionally leaving out a certain elite pass catcher that was kind of critical to their offense...

[MasterStrategist]

17 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't want to throw Coleman under the bus. I was one of his biggest advocates in the pre-draft process last year. I was disappointed with his performance after returning from injury and I wish he had finished the season strong, but I'm still hopeful he can make a year two jump. Even while advocating for him I expected his rookie year to be bumpy and his skill set to take time to develop. But being honest with myself, nothing he did last year makes me feel confident he is the outside downfield WR that we are missing.

 

I watched enough of the Chargers last year to know Palmer is not a vertical WR. He is a decent separator and possession WR who can definitely play outside full time, but his vertical speed and ball tracking are not good enough to fulfill the role I'm talking about.

 

Cooper last year is actually a good example of what I'm talking about. In the regular season KC game he made two big downfield catches, and both of those drives ended in TDs. So we literally do not win that game without his contributions as a downfield WR. Right now I don't believe we have anyone on the roster that can make those plays. I don't think we have anyone that will even force teams to defend that area of the field. Coleman is our best hope but like I said there's no real reason to be confident he will.

 

Beane's response to this concern is to tell us to stop bitching about it. Okay. We'll find out pretty quickly this season if it's a legitimate concern, like we did last year before trading for Cooper. Hopefully I'm wrong about Palmer or Coleman takes a big step in his development.

Yes, you do need to be patient with Keon.  Super young, he needed and might still need another season of development.

 

Palmer, I disagree.  He was targeted and made downfield catches LY.  I think he has better speed/quickness that Coop at this point, Cooper is totally washed.

[Doc Brown]

14 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I find it weird that Beane and others say "don't forget about Kincaid" in the WR discussion, but then they point to the Pats dynasty use of WRs while intentionally leaving out a certain elite pass catcher that was kind of critical to their offense...

It is interesting looking back at his time with the Panthers.  The year they went 15-1 and made the Super Bowl it was Greg Olsen as the only passing weapon that had over 1,000 yards.  It was very much an "everybody eats" WR room.

[Shaw66]

4 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

It's about getting a WR with a specific necessary skill set. I didn't need the Bills to spend a top 100 pick on a WR from this class or multiple picks. I just wanted a WR that could play outside and get vertical, that's all. The role is so important they got rid of MVS so they could trade for Cooper last year. As of right now we don't even have an MVS on the roster, the role remains unfilled.

 

 

But this is exactly why I keep saying what I've been saying.  McDermott and Beane disagree with you, completely.  It's totally obvious.

 

If they thought the role of a vertical receiver who can get deep is as important as you say, they would have acquired a guy or guys to fill that role. When they have a need, they fill it, and for two seasons (since Diggs left) they have done nothing to fill that role.  If they cared about that role, they would have taken Worthy when they had him sitting there for them.  Instead, they passed on Worthy and took Coleman.

 

McBeane's view of the offense is that the guy you're talking about is not necessary. They don't see a great need for that guy.  He isn't critical to how they intend to run their offense. It couldn't be any clearer.  Two years in a row, no meaningful effort to get the guy you think is essential. 

 

I just googled 2024 explosive plays and found a chart that I can't copy.  It's here:  https://steelersdepot.com/2025/01/2024-regular-season-turnover-and-explosive-play-data/  What does it say?  It says the Bills were seventh in the league in explosive plays.  So, that would make me wonder how much better the Bills need to get in the big-play department, and how much better it's actually possible to get.  Ravens 49ers Eagles Lions Bucs and Packers were better. Bills were also fourth or fifth WORST in explosive plays allowed. (Eagles were the worst!)  So, that would make me wonder that if explosive plays are important, which would suggest having a burner to get deep is important, how much capital would I spend to get better at receiver to improve my offensive explosive play stat compared to how much capital I would spend to improve my defensive explosive play stat.  Then I look at the draft, and - wonder of wonders - the Bills spent their draft capital on defense. 

 

This whole receiver discussion should start and end with one sentence: The people who are running the Bills (and who are winning a lot of games) don't think they need a receiver who can get open 30+ yards downfield by outrunning the defenders. That's it. It isn't important to them. (Why not? Because guys with decent speed, like Shakir and Samuel and Palmer can get open downfield using schemes that leave holes they can attack.)

[Shaw66]

3 hours ago, HappyDays said:

So despite my frustration with the continued underinvestment in WR, I'm at least glad that everyone is in agreement that the defense now has the necessary talent to perform at an above average level in the postseason. You can't give all of these resources to a defensive head coach and then come back later making excuses that the talent wasn't good enough. This has to be the year KC's offense doesn't walk all over us in January. I think a realistic standard should be keeping them below 24 points and they need to punt at least 4 times. Otherwise, what was the point of this offseason?

Yes, except it might not all come together this season.  It might, if they hit on some of these rookies.  It's possible that these guys they've acquired will emerge as quality starters this season, but many of them may be a year away.  Which in my mind is okay - they're always building for continuous improvement. And given their draft position, they simply aren't likely to find an instant defensive stud in the draft. 

 

There are, in my mind, two players who have the potential to cause a major turnaround on the defense:  Hairston and Bosa.  If Hairston can start and Bosa can be Bosa, the defense will be a lot better. 

[C.Biscuit97]

1 hour ago, Process said:

None of their Superbowl wins were with Moss to be fair.

But that was the flukiest of flukes. Possibly the greatest team ever. 

16 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

It is interesting looking back at his time with the Panthers.  The year they went 15-1 and made the Super Bowl it was Greg Olsen as the only passing weapon that had over 1,000 yards.  It was very much an "everybody eats" WR room.

It was Cam Newton being super human. But that model is not sustainable. At some point you need the eff it, Aj Brown will get open receiving option. 

[Pete]

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

But that was the flukiest of flukes. Possibly the greatest team ever. 

My buddy is a huge Giants fan.  He has a tatoo of the Patriots logo with a hatchet in its head, blood, and it says "17-1 Slain"  lmao

[HappyDays]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

If they thought the role of a vertical receiver who can get deep is as important as you say, they would have acquired a guy or guys to fill that role.

 

But they did that when they traded for Cooper last year off the heels of two games where having no vertical threat directly led to losses. They met with all of the vertical WRs in the pre-draft process this year too. Beane and McDermott have both openly stated they think adding more speed on offense would be valuable. So on one hand their actions and words tell you they know it is an important role, on the other hand the role remains unfilled as of now. I don't understand the plan, but hopefully they at least get a baseline option in the room.