Brandon Beane on WGR

[Pete]

5 minutes ago, Cray51 said:

Ladd is a slot receiver only.  He is not and will not be an outside vertical threat.  They believe Coleman will be that.

 

 

Ladd McConkey has been primarily used as a slot receiver, playing 63.3% of his snaps inside, according to TruMedia. While he's highly effective in the slot, he's not limited to that position and has experience playing on the outside as well. In the 2023 season, he played 70% of his snaps outside and only 30% in the slot. 

[PrimeTime101]

19 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The thing is you can justify every individual decision in a vacuum that prioritises something else over receiver but when you have spent one pick in the first three rounds on a receiver in EIGHT years, even if you want to include the trade for Stef it is only two in EIGHT years then you can start to make assumptions about their level of urgency and prioritisation of the position. 

I do not get this coming from you Gunner.. I really do not. 

 

Because of Josh Allen.. we are in a "win it all" mode non stop year after year. We have one unknown.. Coleman.. We do not know Ceiling/Floor and you guys want to bring in a new rookie that is basically a coin Flip to have JA throw to.. 

 

INSTEAD... 

 

We are bringing in more proven talent through FA on the WR end so JA does not have to play god every down.  Look at KC's struggles last season cause they went the draft rout. How did Sky Moore work out? Worthy had a hand full of good games. 

 

Shakir is proof a diamond in the rough happens..  how come Beane does not get enough credit on that pick?

 

I do not get the Beane hate at the WR. position other than early last year. 

 

I rarely disagree with you bro lol.. I just do not get it. 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, Cray51 said:

 

If he was where Bishop was selected last year I would've been fine with his rookie season.  I think when engaged, he can go up and pluck the ball better than most.  It's the other things that he needs to work on.

 

The problem is he is ALWAYS engaged because he is a non-separator. And I agree with @Einstein - he drops way too many balls for a guy who is allegedly a contested catch guy. His best role is a big slot. He is at his most dynamic and elusive with ball in hand.

[noacls17]

1 hour ago, NeverOutNick said:

I don’t usually listen to the DA show on XM but today I did and loved the coverage on Beane.

 

Summarizing: You can’t come in hot like that. You didn’t win the Super Bowl or even get there. You consistently lose to the chiefs in the playoffs. It’s a local radio show and they see that McD keeps messing up in big moments, it’s totally justified for them to question the GM

Wgr personalities are arrogant low football iq  knowledgeable people

[Cray51]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

Ladd McConkey has been primarily used as a slot receiver, playing 63.3% of his snaps inside, according to TruMedia. While he's highly effective in the slot, he's not limited to that position and has experience playing on the outside as well. In the 2023 season, he played 70% of his snaps outside and only 30% in the slot. 

In the NFL, when you referenced to their production differences, Ladd is a slot guy. 

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The problem is he is ALWAYS engaged because he is a non-separator. And I agree with @Einstein - he drops way too many balls for a guy who is allegedly a contested catch guy. His best role is a big slot. He is at his most dynamic and elusive with ball in hand.

I mean engaged like willing to attack and be more forceful, not physically engaged.  I agree, he is consistently engaged with defenders, just not the meaning of the word I intended.  Coming back from his injury, he was not attacking the football like he was during the first 5-6 weeks of the year where he was semi-productive against draft position

[Pete]

Just now, Cray51 said:

In the NFL, when you referenced to their production differences, Ladd is a slot guy. 

are you going to argue with AI?  I cut and paste what AI thought about Ladd percentage snaps from the slot

[Cray51]

Just now, Pete said:

are you going to argue with AI?  I cut and paste what AI thought about Ladd percentage snaps from the slot

I spend all day building AI tools lol - arguing with it is a daily task!

 

2023 was college, where there was reference to him lining up outside 70% of the time.  Last year, his production came within the slot, and as @GunnerBill has mentioned in other threads in the past, LA continued to put him there even though they had terrible outside options; because he is the most effective in the slot and not a true boundary option

[Andrew Son]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

No question. But as I keep saying I don't believe for a moment that if the Bills keep the Chiefs to 17 in a playoff game it will result in a 29-17 victory. We have played defensive battle type games with them in the regular season. 20-17 and 24-20. It always comes down to the end. If the Bills defense held the Chiefs to 17 points in the post-season they'd hold us to very similar. It's just how these two play each other. It always comes down to the end. 

 

It's about the key drives - on both sides. And while I don't dispute the defense hasn't made those key stops when it has mattered either, the last two years on those key drives at the end the offense despite Josh being Josh hasn't been good enough to get it done. 

Do you think the Chiefs just aren't trying when we beat them in the regular season?

 

I agree that the offense had the ball with a chance to win the last two playoff matchups.  But I still don't think the offense was the problem, it's not really like they just stalled out.  They are likely a short hop to an open Shakir and a bad spot away from winning both.  And how many times did the offense "win" that 13 seconds game?

 

I just find all this WR criticism bizarre with our elite offense that continually gets let down by the defense in the biggest spots.  The D needs to be fixed.

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

10 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

I do not get this coming from you Gunner.. I really do not. 

 

Because of Josh Allen.. we are in a "win it all" mode non stop year after year. We have one unknown.. Coleman.. We do not know Ceiling/Floor and you guys want to bring in a new rookie that is basically a coin Flip to have JA throw to.. 

 

INSTEAD... 

 

We are bringing in more proven talent through FA on the WR end so JA does not have to play god every down.  Look at KC's struggles last season cause they went the draft rout. How did Sky Moore work out? Worthy had a hand full of good games. 

 

Shakir is proof a diamond in the rough happens..  how come Beane does not get enough credit on that pick?

 

I do not get the Beane hate at the WR. position other than early last year. 

 

I rarely disagree with you bro lol.. I just do not get it. 

 

Going the draft rout was not the problem for the Chiefs, they struggled offensively after Mahomes torpedoed Rashee Rice's knee. 

 

Imagine how bad our offense would've looked last year if Shakir went on IR in week 4. We had a taste of that in the Texans and Ravens games that he was injured for. 

 

Proven talent through FA doesn't always work either. We gave Samuel a decent chunk of change and he was a non-factor (hopefully he'll be better this year when healthy). 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, PrimeTime101 said:

I do not get this coming from you Gunner.. I really do not. 

 

Because of Josh Allen.. we are in a "win it all" mode non stop year after year. We have one unknown.. Coleman.. We do not know Ceiling/Floor and you guys want to bring in a new rookie that is basically a coin Flip to have JA throw to.. 

 

INSTEAD... 

 

We are bringing in more proven talent through FA on the WR end so JA does not have to play god every down.  Look at KC's struggles last season cause they went the draft rout. How did Sky Moore work out? Worthy had a hand full of good games. 

 

Shakir is proof a diamond in the rough happens..  how come Beane does not get enough credit on that pick?

 

I do not get the Beane hate at the WR. position other than early last year. 

 

I rarely disagree with you bro lol.. I just do not get it. 

 

So because we are in win now mode every year that is a reason not to prioritise receivers? Shakir is actually an argument to do exactly what some of us wanted him to do this year - take a shot on a day 3 guy with a skillset that can be developed. It isn't even just about this year - Shakir came on in year 2. Let's say they moved up a few spots in round 5 and snagged Tory Horton (who went 4 picks ahead, who the Bills spoke to twice including a 30 visit) maybe he only has 10 catches for 100 yards as a rookie in limited playing time.... but this time next year he is another young receiver in reserve who you can continue to develop. Samuel will be a FA after this season, Kincaid's option decision will be due and you have to look in the wider context at how your offensive weapons stock looks. 

14 minutes ago, Andrew Son said:

Do you think the Chiefs just aren't trying when we beat them in the regular season?

 

 

No. I just think the Bills and Chiefs will always play nip and tuck matchups which come down to the final moments. The last three years we beat them in the regular season twice the defense made a stand to stop them in the end - with the help of Toney lining up offside in 2023 - and then Josh made an incredible play that was all about him in 2024. Even in those cases when it has come down to the end it isn't offensive weapons that have won it for us. It is defense and Josh being all world.

[Pete]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So because we are in win now mode every year that is a reason not to prioritise receivers? Shakir is actually an argument to do exactly what some of us wanted him to do this year - take a shot on a day 3 guy with a skillset that can be developed. It isn't even just about this year - Shakir came on in year 2. Let's say they moved up a few spots in round 5 and snagged Tory Horton (who went 4 picks ahead, who the Bills spoke to twice including a 30 visit) maybe he only has 10 catches for 100 yards as a rookie in limited playing time.... but this time next year he is another young receiver in reserve who you can continue to develop. Samuel will be a FA after this season, Kincaid's option decision will be due and you have to look in the wider context at how your offensive weapons stock looks. 

Tory Horton is the one that bothers me.  We had plenty of chances , and plenty of picks to trade up and get him in 4th.

[Cash]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

I've read very little of this thread, and I haven't heard much of the Beane interview. All I listened to was when he first came on the air and ripped into them about their (and other people's) constant yammering about what Beane hasn't done about the wideout position.  I have a couple of thoughts. 

 

First, I think it was bad form for Beane to do that, especially right off the bat. What I liked about it was that he didn't seem over-sensitive - it's not like his feelings were hurt.  It was more like a barroom discussion where he came back strong in response to something stupid he heard.  Still, there's a PR portion of his job, and embarrassing media guys in your market is something you should do only when they're really out of control, like Jerry Sullivan was several years ago.  Beane should have kept quiet. 

 

Having said that, I'm glad he spoke up for another reason, and that's because I and other people around here need more support in the argument about wide receiver that keeps raging here. People who think the Bills need a classic, burner, number 1 receiver simply are not paying attention. The Bills do not agree with you. They don't.  They know what kind of personnel they need and want at wide out for the game they want to play. They collected a roomful of those players last season, they like that room, and they only tweaked it this year with the addition of Palmer. 

 

How do I know they like what they have?  Duh! - When they don't like what they have, they add players.  Like they did on the d line this draft and in free agency.

 

Why don't they want the receiver so many people are begging for?  I'd guess there are plenty of reasons. 1. They like the philosophy of spreading the ball around. They want to attack all over the field, in all different kinds of ways, and they don't want to have a player who demands the ball in order to make the offense work.

 

2. They don't want another prima donna, and star wideouts are prima donnas more often than most other positions.

 

3. They want guys who are good and aggressive blockers, and some, many, of the best receivers are not enthusiastic blockers.

 

4. They are ahead of the curve. A few months ago there was a thread here about how receivers are overpriced and their value is falling. It's the same phenomenon that I took so much heat for when I said running backs are a dime a dozen. The fact is that there are a lot of skilled receivers out there, so many that you can get them pretty cheaply. It's much better to spend your money on other positions and run a team concept in your receiver room, which is what the Bills are doing. For example, because they are dedicated to their rotation on the defensive line, the Bills essentially need 8 or 10 starter-caliber defensive linemen.  To have 8 or 10 starters, you have to dedicate resources - money and picks - to that position. If you're going to do that, you need to underspend someplace else. The Bills think their team approach in the receiver room allows them to have a good passing game without spending outrageous dollars on the talent. 

 

People will argue that the best receivers are so special, they make plays, etc. Well, yeah, and I get it, but they have a tendency to become the go-to guy in big play situations.  That means that on third and twelve, he's always your best option, and the defense knows that, and the defense has schemed for that. The Bills play a different way. With their collection of decent speed, different sized, good blocking, reliable receivers, on third and twelve the Bills say to the defense, "Cover all of them." The defense doesn't even know WHICH receivers are going to be on the field until the Bills put their package on the field 25 seconds before the snap. All the defense knows is that it's going to be some assortment of one or two running backs, one or two or no tight ends, and a collection of wideouts, all of whom can get deep, all of whom can line up anywhere, all of whom can catch, and all of whom can block. It's completely obvious that that is how the Bills want to play. 

 

McDermott's philosophy is that he wants his team to be able to play as many different ways as they possibly can. He wants players who can execute everything anyone has ever done successfully on a football field. In order to do that, he needs versatile players, not great players with limited skills.  That's why all the defensive linemen they get have speed and quickness. Why did it take so long for them to go  after a 340-pound defensive tackle? Because they've been waiting for one with foot speed and quickness. They believe they can teach a big guy with foot speed how to anchor the center of the line, but they can't teach a big guy who anchors naturally to run fast.  In the receiver room, it's pretty clear. Samuel, Shakir, Coleman. They're not identical, they all have strengths that make them a bit different from the others, but what they share is versatility and commitment to team play. Palmer looks like another one. They seem to be hoping they can grow Shavers into that sort of role, .  

or Prather - they both are in the Gabriel Davis mold, a different kind of versatile wideout. 

 

I'm not saying Beane and McDermott are right when they take this approach. I actually don't know. However, I understand their approach, and where I agree with Beane in his rant is that it seems pretty silly for people to insist that the Bills should take a different approach when this approach obviously has been successful.  The Bills score a lot of points and win a lot of games. It is very difficult to convince me or McBeane that they would score more or win more with a stud receiver who cost the Bills a lot of draft capital or cap room. 

 

 

 

Appreciate your thoughts as always, @Shaw66.  And I agree with most of the above.  But to some extent, you're arguing against a strawman.  Most of the criticism I've seen on this board isn't "we need Jamarr Chase", it's "we were dead last in WR separation last year and looked like garbage against the Ravens and Texans", with a little of "Josh Allen had the ball with the game on the line and our offense turned the ball over on downs".  As good as our offense was last year, it had a deficiency - it was limited in its ability to attack down the field.  Most teams didn't have the personnel and/or scheme to take advantage of that deficiency, but the ones that did are also the ones we face in the playoffs every year.  @HappyDays says it well here:

 

9 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

It's about getting a WR with a specific necessary skill set. I didn't need the Bills to spend a top 100 pick on a WR from this class or multiple picks. I just wanted a WR that could play outside and get vertical, that's all. The role is so important they got rid of MVS so they could trade for Cooper last year. As of right now we don't even have an MVS on the roster, the role remains unfilled.

 

Also for a team with an "everybody eats" mentality the #5 WR is more important than it is for other teams. Yeah when your top 2 are Chase/Higgins or Hill/Waddle no one cares who your #5 is. But when your offense is built around WRs that are all complementary role players with specific skill sets, you better make sure all the skill sets are accounted for and every player has a way to contribute.

 

I don't know how anyone couldn't be concerned that we're going to see games like the Ravens and Texans last year where the offense was a slog because we had no way to threaten them downfield outside. We added Cooper and the lights clicked on. We at least need to get that baseline on the roster. I thought early day three was a great opportunity to do that in this class.

 

Similar to the Bills' defensive philosophy of having starter-level players rotating in and out on the d-line, the Bills need to have guys across the skill positions who can take advantage when the ball comes their way.  On key 3rd downs, we don't have a go-to guy that we're going to force the ball to.  That means that to some extent, the defense gets to dictate where the ball is going, and smart defenses will ensure that goes to the weakest link on offense.  I feel like there's two things here:

1. Our current group has good players, but no one who has shown they can win deep at the NFL level.  (Maybe 1 guy, depending on how you feel about Palmer.  I haven't watched enough Chargers games to have a real opinion, and I'm taking the stance that I'll believe it when I see it.  "Show me the baby" and whatnot.)
2. Our current group has some good players, but the WR depth chart gets ugly really quick.

 

#1 is a problem because good defenses don't have to worry about the whole field.  By the way, "win deep" doesn't have to be a fast guy - see George Pickens for example.  But it does have to be a guy who produces actual success for the offense when the defense dares us to try it.  If defenses adjust and take away the deep ball, then we have room for the WR screens and over the middle stuff to work better.  Right now, we have 0 or 1 guys who can do that, and it's fair for fans to worry about that.

 

#2 is a problem because... well, look at the Texans game last year.  We don't need any elite WRs, but we need everyone who takes the field to be a legit NFL player, because there's a good chance the ball comes his way on 3rd down.  Right now, we have 4 WRs who fit that bill, and who knows, maybe Shavers is a 5th.  But we typically have 5 active on game day and injuries happen.  If Josh Palmer gets hurt, do we have anyone on the roster who can get open against man coverage?  If Shakir and Samuel get hurt, how do we feel about a top three of Palmer/Coleman/Shavers?

 

Final note:  I think or maybe just hope that in private, Beane and McDermott mostly agree with me on this.  That's why they signed MVS and Claypool last year, and that's why they brought in Elijah Moore for a visit the other day.  In their ideal world, they'd get a guy who is both fast and can win deep, and failing that, they'd get a guy who provides 1 of the 2.

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

2 hours ago, LEBills said:

I don’t think anyone is saying defense isnt where the most improvement was needed and most picks should have gone.
 

The argument is that WR should have probably been prioritized over a Cam Lewis replacement, a Quentin Morris replacement, a third DB, and an OL who may have difficulty making the roster. (And honestly I liked ALL of those individual players). The reason being having a more talented WR group may make it so that Josh doesn’t have to literally play perfect to reach those point totals. And yes a 4th or 5th round rookie probably doesn’t make a huge impact on 2025. But maybe by 2026 or 2027 you have someone good on the roster so you don’t have to pay average guys in FA or need an early round rookie WR to step up immediately. 

There is no spot for a WR to get on the field. We have 4 guys that are going to play a ton. The 5th guy will probably be a STs contributor. The fans don’t think our WRs are any good. The team does not share the sentiment. On top of the fact that it was a terrible WR class, there is no where for them to go. Those spots are filled

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, Pete said:

Tory Horton is the one that bothers me.  We had plenty of chances , and plenty of picks to trade up and get him in 4th.

 

Or in the 5th even. He went 4 picks before our pick. At that point our pick plus the late pick we used on Lundt would have got us up for him. And there were MULTIPLE teams that traded out in the 6 picks before Horton went. We absolutely had the opportunity to do it. We valued a Cam Lewis upgrade, a TE3, another boundary corner and a backup OT (all of whom I like as players btw) ahead of a developmental receiver.

[Fan boy '92]

Tory Horton tracks as a backup in the NFL and is likely a detriment on 4th down. Guess that's the problem, the type of playmaker we're all looking for is rarely available.

[PrimeTime101]

21 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So because we are in win now mode every year that is a reason not to prioritise receivers? Shakir is actually an argument to do exactly what some of us wanted him to do this year - take a shot on a day 3 guy with a skillset that can be developed. It isn't even just about this year - Shakir came on in year 2. Let's say they moved up a few spots in round 5 and snagged Tory Horton (who went 4 picks ahead, who the Bills spoke to twice including a 30 visit) maybe he only has 10 catches for 100 yards as a rookie in limited playing time.... but this time next year he is another young receiver in reserve who you can continue to develop. Samuel will be a FA after this season, Kincaid's option decision will be due and you have to look in the wider context at how your offensive weapons stock looks. 

 

No. I just think the Bills and Chiefs will always play nip and tuck matchups which come down to the final moments. The last three years we beat them in the regular season twice the defense made a stand to stop them in the end - with the help of Toney lining up offside in 2023 - and then Josh made an incredible play that was all about him in 2024. Even in those cases when it has come down to the end it isn't offensive weapons that have won it for us. It is defense and Josh being all world.

No.. your not getting it..  Draft is still a coin flip in how good a WR is going to be.. By prioritizing a WR through FA.. your guaranteed to know the floor/ceiling. A QB has to be confident in his targets.. this literally spawns confidence knowing what you have. On WGR in this example.. they were complaining more about this last draft not getting a WR. You are giving them excuses by digging into History of drafts as to why we did or didn't get a WR that year.  

 

If we had moved up in round 1 to get a WR.. everyone would of been crying..  Round 2.. talent just was not there at WR position. so we filled other needs. 

 

Beane said it clear as day

 

"I get this argument last year but not now"  

[K D]

2 hours ago, NeverOutNick said:

I don’t usually listen to the DA show on XM but today I did and loved the coverage on Beane.

 

Summarizing: You can’t come in hot like that. You didn’t win the Super Bowl or even get there. You consistently lose to the chiefs in the playoffs. It’s a local radio show and they see that McD keeps messing up in big moments, it’s totally justified for them to question the GM

They should get a load of this message board then. Everyone here thinks Beane walks on water. You would think we had won multiple Superbowls if you didn't know any better. He got lucky on 1 draft pick who ended up being a top 3 QB in the league (a big one to hit on sure) but besides that it's been pretty mediocre. It took an MVP effort to get us to the AFC championship game only to again have the defense fold like a cheap tent. So are we just expecting another MVP level effort? And that's our strategy every year? How about get some weapons that teams are actually scared of and not rely on 1 guy to be Superman 

[BuffaloMatt]

19 hours ago, US Egg said:

It’s the equating of them where it goes off the rails.

 

WGR “expert” opinions stand shoulder to shoulder with Beane’s? Some think so in here.

Agreed, they are not equal. Credibility is earned. 

[Coach Tuesday]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

It's about getting a WR with a specific necessary skill set. I didn't need the Bills to spend a top 100 pick on a WR from this class or multiple picks. I just wanted a WR that could play outside and get vertical, that's all. The role is so important they got rid of MVS so they could trade for Cooper last year. As of right now we don't even have an MVS on the roster, the role remains unfilled.

 

Also for a team with an "everybody eats" mentality the #5 WR is more important than it is for other teams. Yeah when your top 2 are Chase/Higgins or Hill/Waddle no one cares who your #5 is. But when your offense is built around WRs that are all complementary role players with specific skill sets, you better make sure all the skill sets are accounted for and every player has a way to contribute.

 

I don't know how anyone couldn't be concerned that we're going to see games like the Ravens and Texans last year where the offense was a slog because we had no way to threaten them downfield outside. We added Cooper and the lights clicked on. We at least need to get that baseline on the roster. I thought early day three was a great opportunity to do that in this class.

 

It's almost as though Beane is mad at the media for "making him" trade for Cooper mid-season, whereas he really believes they didn't need to panic and ditch their original third rounder.  I could be wrong but that is the vibe I'm starting to get.  And he's just the type who'd be stubborn enough to NOT make another in-season trade for a WR during 2025 just to prove his point.

[LEBills]

15 minutes ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

There is no spot for a WR to get on the field. We have 4 guys that are going to play a ton. The 5th guy will probably be a STs contributor. The fans don’t think our WRs are any good. The team does not share the sentiment. On top of the fact that it was a terrible WR class, there is no where for them to go. Those spots are filled

When you combine MVS and Coopers (his replacement) snap counts, the Bills had 5 WRs who logged at least 34% of snaps.

 

Only 2 DTs, 2 DEs, and 3 CBs had more than 34% of snaps. Currently our 5th WR is Shavers, Shenault or Prather

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/2024-snap-counts.htm