Is there an NFL team with a weaker WR group than the Bills?

[Simon]

1 hour ago, Mister Defense said:

 

I think this is a good way to look at it for it, overall.

 

As  the first line above is probably what happens that is most frustrating, when threads are taken over by people out to change the direction into something else, something often extremely negative and with nothing more than a their irrational whims and emotion to 'guide' them.

 

 

 

It is a very, very tricky line to navigate, keeping those kinds of people away while at the same time making sure we never cross that line into smothering alternative opinions. I tend to err on the side of more open discussion because I think it creates a better forum than erring on the side of squelching unconventional takes.

fwiw, two of those people you're talking about just got tossed out on their ear for a month or more and are now on double secret probation forever.

[MJS]

12 minutes ago, Pete said:

Patriots-

Diggs

Mack Hollins

Kyle Williams

Bourne

Boutte

Baker

 

hmmm, im not sure, Bills WR group is not much better, and they have more than 4 WR

 

Jets

Garrett Wilson

Alan Lazard

Tyler Johnson

Malachi Corley

Gipson

 

Wilson much better #1.  Lazard had 6 TD last season- more than any Bills WR

 

Browns

Jeudy

Tillman

Diontae Johnson

Thrash

Woods

Jeudy had 1200 yards.  Tillman was injured early, but finished strong the last 6 games. Diontae is great WR, but crazy.   Bills WR room is better, but close

 

Titans

Calvin Ridley

Tyler Lockett

Van Jefferson

Treylon Burke

Ayomanor

 

OK- the Bills WR room is more talented then the Titans.

 

Raiders

Tre Tucker 4.31 speed

Jack Bech - my favorite WR in 2025 draft

Jakobi Myers

Donte Thornton - one of 14 WR I wanted for Bills to draft

Wilkerson

 

its very close.

 

Falcons

Mooney

London

McCloud

Blair

Washigton

 

Bills WR much better

 

Carolina

McMillan

Legette

Thielan

Moore

Oker

 

Bills eek this one out

 

So if those 7 are worse than the Bills, than the Bills have ther 25th best WR group.

 

I concede the Bills have better WR rooms than 4 teams, placing them 28th best WR group.

 

"Worst WR Group in NFL" slight hyperbole.  But not far from the truth

There are also a few teams who have one really good receiver and then not much besides that. I struggle to put teams like that over the Bills. It is great to have a guy, but you certainly want more depth. So, teams like the Cardinals, Cowboys, and maybe the Jaguars fit that.

 

If the Bills added one receiver who was a legitimate #1 guy, they would be up there with the best in the entire league, because they do have a few quality guys like Palmer, Shakir, and potentially Coleman. Palmer as the #2 and Shakir in the slot would be awesome. Let's hope they draft a WR high next year and he is just a great receiver.

[Kirby Jackson]

I think it’s such an interesting philosophical discussion. You can EASILY argue out of both sides of your mouth. The irony is that Beane has argued out of both sides of his mouth on the topic. He goes on WGR and talks about how many points the offense scored. He also said earlier this offseason, they need speed, and Coleman needs to get better. They dealt a 3rd for 1/2 of a year of Amari Cooper because they hated the situation. They brought in Elijah Moore for a visit yesterday so clearly he doesn’t believe, “this room is good.” They lost Cooper and Mack. They added Palmer. The answer is, it’s both. They’ve been a dynamic offense and scored a lot of points. The WR room is one of the worst in the NFL. Both are true. 

 

The question becomes, “can they sustain an elite offense with those limitations?” Those saying yes can say, “look at last year.” Those saying no can say, “last year they had the least negative plays in history. They led the league in turnover margin. They still had to trade a 3rd for Cooper and couldn’t score when it mattered most. That’s not sustainable.” Who is right? We don’t know the answer yet. 
 

I’m obviously a believer that a field stretcher is necessary to open up the playbook. I believe that their best weapons are Cook, Shakir and Kincaid in that order (obviously excluding Josh). They all need space underneath to operate. We will see if they can get a guy or if they can overcome that area of the field being crowded. It hurt Kincaid last year. The other 2 were fine but could they have been better? We don’t know. Now, we are in wait and see.

Edited 5 hours ago by Kirby Jackson

[MJS]

17 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I think it’s such an interesting philosophical discussion. You can EASILY argue out of both sides of your mouth. The irony is that Beane has argued out of both sides of his mouth on the topic. He goes on WGR and talks about how many points the offense scored. He also said earlier this offseason, they need speed, and Coleman needs to get better. They dealt a 3rd for 1/2 of a year of Amari Cooper because they hated the situation. They brought in Elijah Moore for a visit yesterday so clearly he doesn’t believe, “this room is good.” They lost Cooper and Mack. They added Palmer. The answer is, it’s both. They’ve been a dynamic offense and scored a lot of points. The WR room is one of the worst in the NFL. Both are true. 

 

The question becomes, “can they sustain an elite offense with those limitations.” Those saying yes can say, “look at last year.” Those saying no can say, “last year they had the least negative plays in history. They led the league in turnover margin. They still had to trade a 3rd for Cooper and couldn’t score when it mattered most. That’s not sustainable.” Who is right? We don’t know the answer yet. 
 

I’m obviously a believer that a field stretcher is necessary to open up the playbook. I believe that their best weapons are Cook, Shakir and Kincaid in that order (obviously excluding Josh). They all need space underneath to operate. We will see if they can get a guy or if they can overcome that area of the field being crowded. It hurt Kincaid last year. The other 2 were fine but could they have been better? We don’t know. Now, we are in wait and see.

Kincaid needs to have a breakout year. Him and Josh were not on the same page. That needs to improve. He has yet to live up to his 1st round draft status. Part of that is on Josh, though. Many of Kincaid's targets were not quality targets.

 

And for the money we are paying Samuel, he needs to be a lot better as well.

[Kirby Jackson]

21 minutes ago, MJS said:

Kincaid needs to have a breakout year. Him and Josh were not on the same page. That needs to improve. He has yet to live up to his 1st round draft status. Part of that is on Josh, though. Many of Kincaid's targets were not quality targets.

 

And for the money we are paying Samuel, he needs to be a lot better as well.

Yeah, Samuel will improve. That’s his skillset though. People who thought he was going to be a pure outside WR were always going to be disappointed. As an Ohio State fan, I like the player a lot. He was dynamic there with the ball in his hands. He was a RB though. He’s more of a slash guy and similar in some ways to Shakir. He’s a guy that’s good with the ball in his hands and explosive. 
 

In terms of Kincaid, he’s better than the player that was out there last year. I’m not sure he’s a top 5 guy though that I thought he’d become. There are a multitude of reasons as to why he struggled last year. I think some of it was the lack of other weapons. Teams focused on him. The Bills saw the 3rd least 2 deep in the league last year. The space where he likes to operate was crowded. The Bills will have to find ways to get him in space. Fortunately, Brady is very creative. 

[Chandler#81]

NEWSFLASH:

 

[warrior9]

On 4/27/2025 at 6:39 AM, UKBillFan said:

 

I've been trying to think of a way to phrase my concern and "why do they keep banking on improvement on offense but replacement on defense?" is just perfect.

Uhhhh because we saw a decline in production on defense and an uptick in production on offense with a younger core? 

 

Do you not realize most of the guys we replaced on defense were in their 30's and tail end of their careers? Is this a legitimate thought you had that was "perfect?" 

 

We scored the most points in our franchise history and the first team to score 30 points in 8 straight games in a regular season.... MAYBE just MAYBE that's why they bank on improvement? Because they're younger and are actually improving? Did you see Cook and Shakirs numbers YOY and think "Hmmm, did they improve?" 

 

An actual legitimate thought you need to have that would be "perfect" is:

 

"We have a team with an MVP QB who is the best in the world at his position and we just put up the most points in the regular season in the NFL. We upgraded at WR and have our whole OL back. Joe Brady will be in his second full year calling plays and the improvement we saw from his interim year to last year was absolutely impressive.  Why am I questioning what's going on with our offense?"

Edited 4 hours ago by warrior9

[UKBillFan]

1 minute ago, warrior9 said:

Uhhhh because we saw a decline in production on defense and an uptick in production on offense with a younger core? 

 

Do you not realize most of the guys we replaced were in their 30's and tail end of their careers? Is this a legitimate thought you had that was "perfect?" 

 

We scored the most points in our franchise history and the first team to score 30 points in 8 straight games in a regular season.... MAYBE just MAYBE thats why they bank on improvement? Because they're younger and are actually improving? Did you see Cooks numbers? Shakirs number and think "Hmmm they didn't improve?"

 

They're trusting a lot of Kincaid and Coleman's regression being simply down to injuries. If they're right, then we could well be celebrating a Super Bowl win in February. If they're wrong, then it will probably be the same result of more angst over the off season over what could have been and what should have been done differently.

 

And if the offense has issues this year through natural regression, such as the number of turnovers increasing towards the mean, Josh perhaps being world class instead of otherworldly and some of Cook's plays being worked out on defense, then something different may be required. And quite a few people will be sadly saying "I told you so".

 

There is time left to bring a WR in. And I think most people liked the draft picks over the past few days - even if some aren't fans of the players themselves, they're fine with the thought process. From there, could they have got Royals or another WR in round four? I guess that's what every thread is boiling down to. Him or Walker.

[warrior9]

1 minute ago, UKBillFan said:

 

They're trusting a lot of Kincaid and Coleman's regression being simply down to injuries. If they're right, then we could well be celebrating a Super Bowl win in February. If they're wrong, then it will probably be the same result of more angst over the off season over what could have been and what should have been done differently.

 

And if the offense has issues this year through natural regression, such as the number of turnovers increasing towards the mean, Josh perhaps being world class instead of otherworldly and some of Cook's plays being worked out on defense, then something different may be required. And quite a few people will be sadly saying "I told you so".

 

There is time left to bring a WR in. And I think most people liked the draft picks over the past few days - even if some aren't fans of the players themselves, they're fine with the thought process. From there, could they have got Royals or another WR in round four? I guess that's what every thread is boiling down to. Him or Walker.

I added to my quote while you quoted me. 

 

There will ALWAYS be people that say I told you so. Ok, let me ask you this: Who did you want us to bring in as WR and why? 

Speed? We just signed Palmer. Speed at the WR position won't help us much as we face sooo much zone. 

 

Do you genuinely think there is someone on the market right now that makes us a better offense? THE ONLY answer is Pickens right now. Do you want him? 

[Cash]

12 minutes ago, UKBillFan said:

 

They're trusting a lot of Kincaid and Coleman's regression being simply down to injuries. If they're right, then we could well be celebrating a Super Bowl win in February. If they're wrong, then it will probably be the same result of more angst over the off season over what could have been and what should have been done differently.

 

And if the offense has issues this year through natural regression, such as the number of turnovers increasing towards the mean, Josh perhaps being world class instead of otherworldly and some of Cook's plays being worked out on defense, then something different may be required. And quite a few people will be sadly saying "I told you so".

 

There is time left to bring a WR in. And I think most people liked the draft picks over the past few days - even if some aren't fans of the players themselves, they're fine with the thought process. From there, could they have got Royals or another WR in round four? I guess that's what every thread is boiling down to. Him or Walker.

 

Regarding Coleman specifically, I think it's more than just the wrist injury.  Looking at NFL players as a whole, there's pretty clear statistical evidence that the biggest jump in production is between years 1 and 2.  It doesn't always play out that way at an individual level - Micah Parsons was a sensation as a rookie, Eric Moulds broke out in year 3, Michael Clayton had a great rookie year ages ago, then never did anything again.  But it's not crazy or clutching at straws to think that Coleman will be a significantly better NFL player in year 2 than year 1.  Especially, IMO, since he's a pretty young prospect - he's about to turn 22 in a couple weeks.  He's at the point where most NFL players are still ascending athletically.

[GASabresIUFan]

The truth about all these WR rooms is that you don't know what you have until the season begins play.  Injuries, rookie performance, offensive usage etc... all factor into whether a WR room works or doesn't.  You also have to factor in the RBs and TEs into a full passing attack.  Having good RBs and TEs lessens the need for great WRs.  

 

When I look at the Bills, I see a diversified group of pass catchers.  I see 3 RBs that can catch and be utilized in different formations.  I see two TEs who can catch and are factors in the passing game.  Would anyone really be surprised if we had as many as 4 guys with 700+ receiving yards between our WRs and TEs? 

 

My biggest issue with the WR room is the lack of a consistent deep threat.  Our longest pass plays last season by Josh to a WR were a 64 yarder to Coleman, and a 52 yarder to Shakir, our slot receiver.  Davis had a 63 yard catch as well.  If my memory serves all three of these plays had significant YAC.

 

What stood out to me about Josh's season last year was the lack of downfield plays.  That was a symptom of the offense, but I think it hurt the Bills at various points last season.  Last season Josh had his lowest air yards on his throws for his career.  It was down to 7.9 yards per attempt and only 3.6 yards per completion.  The good news was our receivers, TEs and RBs gained 2005 yards after the catch last season. A career high for Josh of 6.5 YAC.  

 

The funny thing is that all these short throws didn't make Josh more accurate.  His accuracy rate was 74.8% which is firmly in the middle of his career rates of 73.2 to 79.1.

 

My take from all this is that the Bills still need to allow everyone to eat, but I'd like to see more explosive plays from the offense.  To do that we need a fast deep threat.  I wish we had drafted one, but I'd be satisfied with finding someone with that skill set in free agency (Moore?).   

 

 

 

Edited 4 hours ago by GASabresIUFan

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

On 4/27/2025 at 3:50 AM, Pete said:

Who is our outside WRs?  Where are they?  Did Keon play so good that we can count on him to be WR2?  Is Palmer WR 1?  Can we count on Samuels to be healthy the entire season?  Who is our 5th WR?
 

Palmer 1

Keon 2

Shakir slot

Samuels 

 

Buffalo saw more man to man coverage last season, because no one respects our WR.  We have had FA and the draft to correct that, and Beane has done Jack *****.

 

its going to take another Ravens curb stomping to make Beane panic and make another Amari like trade.

 

It’s the emperors new clothes.  We have yet to replace John Brown.  This offense needs a vertical component which it is sorely lacking.

 

I know Bills had great offense- after we acquired Amari.

 

We lose Mack and Amari, and added Palmer.  

 

Name a worse WR group.

 

What happens if there is a WR injury?  Is WR Beanes Achilles heal?

 

 

 

Plenty. Jaguars, Cardinals, and Patriots right off the top of my head.

 

ESPECIALLY the Patriots. Good God.

 

Josh won an MVP. That isn't happening with the WORST receiver group in the NFL. 

 

And the thing that drives me absolutely nuts on this board is the complete impatience of people when it comes to development. If a guy doesn't ball out in his rookie year, he is a bust according to a big % of this forum. Kincaid I understand. Heading into year 3 it is crucial for him. He also had that big drop against KC which he's lucky he isn't scrutinized more for. Keon Coleman? I simply don't get it at all. 556 and 4 TDs averaging 20 yards a catch is SOLID. He can absolutely build on that. Also, this offense is more of a ball distribution philosophy of getting it to the open guy. Josh Allen seems so much more relaxed w/ this concept. Career lows in both sacks & interceptions. He's getting the ball out quick & decisively. 

 

Beane went off on that interviewer which was amazing. Bills averaged more points than the SB winners. The defense is what needs help. I hope McDermott considers bringing in a new philosophy if they come up short once again because of a crap showing against KC.

[BADOLBILZ]

10 hours ago, MasterStrategist said:

Stats don't tell the full story.

 

Chargers were a balanced offense, Browns played from behind and needed to throw more.  Moore caught a TON of short passes, good for him.

 

Palmer was used all over the field and is thr closest thing we have to a true outside receiver.  Moore is moved around, but is a shifty slot-  he'd be someone I'd like "moore" if we didn't have Samuel.

 

Not saying it would be a bad signing.  He's an upgrade on our current WR5/depth, I'd trust him as a backup slot.  He also brings return ability.  

 

I'm for the signing, just making the point he isnt near Palmer and is a strict depth/return type signing.  There's a reason we went after Palmer and gave him a very good contract.

 

Again, stats don't tell the story.  Robert Foster also put up stats - on a horribly talent deficient WR room.. some guys get stats because someone has to.  Moore isn't Foster, but he's not matching the targets if he comes here.

 

 

For the required $4M.....because of his tag......Moore would be a bad signing.    That's why he's still out there.   He's a reclamation project and nobody really wants to pay $4M for a flyer who looks like he has lost any juice he once had.   

 

But options are THAT limited because teams know to horde WR talent.   You can pick up this quality of player at a lot of positions for league minimum.   

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

24 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

 

Plenty. Jaguars, Cardinals, and Patriots right off the top of my head.

 

ESPECIALLY the Patriots. Good God.

 

Josh won an MVP. That isn't happening with the WORST receiver group in the NFL. 

 

And the thing that drives me absolutely nuts on this board is the complete impatience of people when it comes to development. If a guy doesn't ball out in his rookie year, he is a bust according to a big % of this forum. Kincaid I understand. Heading into year 3 it is crucial for him. He also had that big drop against KC which he's lucky he isn't scrutinized more for. Keon Coleman? I simply don't get it at all. 556 and 4 TDs averaging 20 yards a catch is SOLID. He can absolutely build on that. Also, this offense is more of a ball distribution philosophy of getting it to the open guy. Josh Allen seems so much more relaxed w/ this concept. Career lows in both sacks & interceptions. He's getting the ball out quick & decisively. 

 

Beane went off on that interviewer which was amazing. Bills averaged more points than the SB winners. The defense is what needs help. I hope McDermott considers bringing in a new philosophy if they come up short once again because of a crap showing against KC.

 

 

Kincaid you understand?   No, you don't apparently.   Year 3 is typically the breakout year for TE's.   Yeah he's old as dirt for a 3rd year TE but this is the year TE's are expected to break out.   There isn't reason to believe in it but this is the make or break year.   Star rookie TE's like LaPorta and Bowers are very unusual.  

 

But WR's who elevate to stud status in the second half of their rookie year are pretty common.   That's the concern with Coleman.  His rookie season reads like this.......looked promising early because he was being force fed........then fell FLAT ON HIS FACE at the end of the season.  

 

I personally thought he was a 3 year project when they drafted him but WR's selected early usually breakout early.   Slow buildups like Davante Adams(my Coleman ceiling comp) are not the norm.   These WR's are so much more polished entering the league now than they were 15 years ago.   

[MasterStrategist]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFan said:

So your saying that there are so many factors, but bad QB play isn't one of them?  Give me a break.  

 

If you don't think that inaccurate throwing by QB lowers WR stats, then you haven't been watching football.  

The title of this thread is the Bills group is the worst in the NFL and now your telling me that there are as many as 6 worse.  Thanks for proving my point.

And you're arguing that Moore's numbers are better with improved QB play...yes, but still apples to oranges when comparing to Palmer (different system, etc).

 

Like I said, you can't look at bad qb play in a silo.  Which is exactly what you were trying to do with Palmer vs Moore stats.  Doesn't make sense and you know it

[ndirish1978]

On 4/27/2025 at 7:25 AM, Kirby Jackson said:

I keep hammering on it in the other thread but why do they keep banking on improvement on offense but replacement on defense? Why were they so concerned with upgrading Cam Lewis, Dwayne Carter and J’Marcus Ingram but fine with development from Shavers, Coleman, and Samuel? You could have and should have tried to upgrade on both sides. The WR room needed one guy between rounds 2 & 5 (as it turns out) that could stretch the field. There were LOTS of options.

 

Because they drafted Kincaid and Coleman with their first pick the last 2 years, they need to get better. We know who we have on defense and Defense has been awful when it counts in the playoffs. If you want to quickly improve a team overall that has a B+ offense, A+ QB  and a C- defense it's pretty clear you upgrade the defense to B or B+ and you're going to get dividends because they are dragging the team average down. 

[MasterStrategist]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

For the required $4M.....because of his tag......Moore would be a bad signing.    That's why he's still out there.   He's a reclamation project and nobody really wants to pay $4M for a flyer who looks like he has lost any juice he once had.   

 

But options are THAT limited because teams know to horde WR talent.   You can pick up this quality of player at a lot of positions for league minimum.   

 

 

Agree 👍 

[Ralonzo]

3 hours ago, Pete said:

Patriots-

Diggs

Mack Hollins

Kyle Williams

Bourne

Boutte

Baker

 

Demario Douglas is their slot, and they also have last year's TSW crush (one of many) Jalynn Polk as well. I don't know how many they're going to carry but resources have been expended that will not be helping that position in 2025 for the Pats.

 

[Kirby Jackson]

11 minutes ago, ndirish1978 said:

 

Because they drafted Kincaid and Coleman with their first pick the last 2 years, they need to get better. We know who we have on defense and Defense has been awful when it counts in the playoffs. If you want to quickly improve a team overall that has a B+ offense, A+ QB  and a C- defense it's pretty clear you upgrade the defense to B or B+ and you're going to get dividends because they are dragging the team average down. 

So, they drafted Elam in the first the year before. They wouldn’t even put him on the field to improve. Basham was a 2nd and the same. Carter was a 3rd and a healthy scratch. That’s my point. They are saying, we need to replace guys like that along with solid back of the roster players in Lewis and Ingram. On offense they are saying, “everyone should get better.” They’re banking on improvement there but replacement on defense.

 

To be clear, the defense was in worse shape than the offense. The majority of the assets should have been allocated to the defense. I’ve yet to see anyone dispute that. With that being said, 1 of those mid round picks should have been dedicated to securing a field stretcher. No one is suggesting the defense shouldn’t have been addressed. 

[JP51]

On 4/27/2025 at 3:50 AM, Pete said:

Who is our outside WRs?  Where are they?  Did Keon play so good that we can count on him to be WR2?  Is Palmer WR 1?  Can we count on Samuels to be healthy the entire season?  Who is our 5th WR?
 

Palmer 1

Keon 2

Shakir slot

Samuels 

 

Buffalo saw more man to man coverage last season, because no one respects our WR.  We have had FA and the draft to correct that, and Beane has done Jack *****.

 

its going to take another Ravens curb stomping to make Beane panic and make another Amari like trade.

 

It’s the emperors new clothes.  We have yet to replace John Brown.  This offense needs a vertical component which it is sorely lacking.

 

I know Bills had great offense- after we acquired Amari.

 

We lose Mack and Amari, and added Palmer.  

 

Name a worse WR group.

 

What happens if there is a WR injury?  Is WR Beanes Achilles heal?

 

 

So my question is, doesnt it make sense to factor the QB into this equation?  So if you put this WR core on the Jets does it change how you rank it?  Similar if you put the Titans WR core on the Bills or the Chiefs does it change it?   So from my perspective the Wide Receiver position is predicated on the Receiver part... meaning someone is throwing the Ball....  so no, I dont see it as the weakest Receiving core in the league.  

 

When we look at Achilles heal, I would say that we at the very top of the league in points scored... I cannot think of a game absent the Ravens beat down where we did not score enough points to win.  In our 3 losses (discounting the scrub game at the Pats) we averaged 21 points.... lots of teams would love to average 21 points in a win....  so our WR core is not flashy, but it is effective...  it is not the strength of the team, but from a production standpoint it isnt our weakness...  we have players with upside potential including Coleman, Shakir and yes... I said it, Kindcaid... we have an explosive 3rd down receiver in Ty Johnson...  Now, could we use a drafted alpha receiver sure could we improve... sure... but If I am looking at why we keep losing to KC in the Division and Championship Rds... I am not focusing on WR...  but thats just me....